
Before we start this, let us get a few things clear: when I find myself seemingly on the side of leftists, I backtrack and do my homework. And I make d*mn sure I’m not running on either emotion or knee jerk or propaganda.
That’s number one. Remember that. It’s important. Because there’s enough emotion on both sides of this issue to make it a complete mess.
Number two: I am not actually on the side of the left. The left talks about “forgiving student loans” but none of the things they’ve proposed does that. Everything they’ve proposed from “we’ll forgive 10k” to “we’ll forgive the loans of those who’ve made $15 an hour for 20 years without breaks” affect maybe 1% of people in any way, shape or form.
They are however dangerous politically, when combined with the right’s knee-jerk reaction of “no. Make them pay” because it makes the left seem like the good guys to a lot of very desperate people who would otherwise scoff at being offered a fake salvation.
Number three: the right is also running on emotion. I realized that when “doctors and lawyers” and “making the work class pay for it” (neither of which are operative or true.) I BEG you to suspend your visceral, emotional reaction and think through what I’m going to present. If nothing else, because a lot of what you’re saying often has little contact with reality. Listen, okay? Just listen. And then think about it. After it you can still be against any kind of forgiveness, but you shouldn’t do it from your gut, or from the images you gathered from the media, a lot of it on the right and running on emotion and misinformation.
So, to start: if you’d asked me 10 years ago if I believed student loans should be forgiven, I’d say absolutely not. Or even seven years ago. Thing is, I didn’t know much about it. And hadn’t seen the insanity up close and personal. (Also it’s gotten markedly worse in the last 5 years.)
I would be running on the fact that Dan and I either had no (me) or paid off (his) student loans (which were piddly because he had scholarships.) And that we’d paid/intended to pay half of each kid’s school costs, leaving them with only half that in a loan. And that we were very careful not taking parent-plus loans. And that our kids’ were responsible.
But I admit to getting a twinge of “uh” when we found out the loans weren’t dischargeable in bankruptcy, unlike every other loan, ever. And that they were guaranteed by the federal government.
This twinge got far worse as I watched younger son — yes, it got markedly worse between the two boys — navigate syllabuses that forced him to stay on another year, if he hoped to graduate, and then play fast and loose with the courses offered, etc. This on top of the costs doubling every year just about. Here I will add that there’s a personality difference. Younger son tends to do things on his own and not ask for help. Older son avoided a couple of traps because we/our friends knew how to get around them. However, for these purposes younger son is more like people who are first in family to get in college, and have no connections, which means the ones most likely to end up with their butts in a big trap.
And then other things added in, including the first thing I said I thought the entire thing was a scam and victims of a scam shouldn’t be punished, people starting to come out of the woodwork to tell me their stories.
The first one to talk about it, before I even reconsidered, was a lovely young woman of Indian ancestry, who came to a Huns get together at Pete’s and who told me things I wasn’t prepared to hear. Including that antifa is big because it pays. And it pays cash and under the table. Kids caught in the vice-grip of loans and lack of jobs don’t have anywhere else to go. I didn’t believe her, and I apologize for that.
Meanwhile, the last six years or so, I’ve seen the “kids” of 30and younger struggle with that trap. The trap is real. And yes, it is far worse than what we went through at their age.
For those my age and younger, it is like boomers telling us that we could make a mint in real estate, and why were we strapped. Roughly, because taxes were cheaper when they were young, and regulations were more lax. And there were more jobs hiring the young. And for politico-social reasons, they had an easier time climbing the ladder.
For kids now, metaphorically speaking, the ladder isn’t there and it’s on fire. Yes, some kids are still doing well. They are mostly those with contacts, connections, and — AT LEAST — family knowledge.
I took exception to the article linked in comments referring to “pampered rutabagas” and i will point out it’s appeal to emotion. The pampered kids either didn’t have loans (our better off friends paid their kids’ tuition entirely. Because they could. We couldn’t. It wasn’t a matter of “sacrifice to pay”. You can’t get blood from a stone) or have mommy and daddy helping with a job and paying those back. (We have a plan to pay the kids’ back, so this is not personal. Younger son has a plan to pay his back. Older does too. But we have a plan to pay them also, and one of us should succeed.)
By and large the people in serious trouble are those who were reaching “above’ where they could afford, and whose parents had limited resources. Which contributes to their being stuck.
I have had people send me stuff and mostly I’m going to excerpt one of those people throughout. Because this reader writes the best of the ones who sent me stuff. And this person’s experience is close to universal in getting all the worst stuff possible. (Some people are lucky.)
WHAT WAS SOLD
What was sold, either for the young going to college or people — a lot of them in IT — whose job had disappeared or been farmed to a cheap HB1 visa worker, (a lot of that in 01 to 03) was a better future. Or later, simply the ability to get A job.
You can bitch and you can wrangle, but the truth is this: until very recently, and many places even now, you couldn’t get a job in retail management without a Bachelor’s. Even if you came in as an employee, you’d not get promoted without that piece of paper.
This is of course the result of our public schools graduating people who can’t read, and our laws allowing companies to be sued for giving competence tests. But note that all this pile of utter stupid is not the fault of the people trying to find a job.
Who are pushed into college in order to maybe, one day, have a job that isn’t a dead end.
HOW BAD WERE THE LIES?
Well, you know or perhaps not, that my degree is in English, with a minor in German, and a half dozen languages rounding out the degree. It’s not the same as an English degree in the US, obviously. That would be a Portuguese degree in Portugal, and my colleagues and I used to make fun of those people, back then.
But once I was in the US in 1985, an English degree, even a bit more than a Masters, is an English degree. Mostly people glanced at it and went “Oh, one of those people.”
So by the 2010s I was well aware of what an English degree was worth. And wasn’t.
Which is why I found myself arguing with a lot of young people not to take it. “At least take business. It’s just as useless, but it sounds better to employers.” Or “Gosh, take journalism.” “Take history.” ANYTHING but English, because I know those are a dead end. In fact, I threatened to disown either boy if they took English.
BUT AT THE SAME TIME I saw, not just commercials, but articles in newspapers and magazines talking about how HUNGRY industry was for English graduates, who had proven their grit and excellent language skills.
If I didn’t know better by then, and have a job, I’d have sent my resume to fortune 500 companies, thinking they’d leap on them with glad cries.
Of course a lot of people didn’t know better.
WHAT THE LOANS WERE LIKE. And here I’m excerpting from my reader (Reader’s stuff in Blue so obviously not mine.) I note reader started when loans WERE dischargeable in bankruptcy. That changed.
The student loan paperwork was not honest. I read the document I was signing. What I didn’t know was what I signed was only valid and binding on my side. The government just changed a law, and poof, their agreement was no longer binding. Queue up Vader from Empire Strikes Back, “I am altering the deal, pray I don’t alter it any further.”
When the government changed the agreement without my approval, where was the hue and cry? When they made company reimbursement for graduate school taxable income, but not loans, pushing graduate schools towards loans, where was the hue and cry? When they took away the bankruptcy option away, where was the hue and cry? When they changed the repayments from supporting other students, to subsidize ObamaCare, where was the hue and cry?
“I am altering the deal, pray I don’t alter it any further.”
When I grumbled, I was told to “pay your debts, deadbeat.”
NOTE that I don’t know if reader is correct that this was designed to pay for Obamacare, but it wouldn’t surprise me, because the government guaranteeing the loans WAS at about that time.
WHAT WAS BEING SOLD
Older son made it through undergrad okay. They made him go five years mind (with perfect grades) because one course just wasn’t available. And if he took only one course then he would have to start paying back loans, while applying to grad school. So, he took a second bachelor’s degree in that last year. Which was an insane option, and of course put more money in loans, but doable? And considering other people competing with him for grad school had Masters well…. it might have helped. (But probably not.)
Younger son, we should have taken notice of the fact that a lot of the courses he’d taken through the same university in a dual high school/college program were disallowed and he had to retake them (despite excellent grades. We should also have looked at the graduation rate for the local can-live-at-home will-save-money school. We didn’t. And I’ll point out we’re smarter than the average bear. And less trusting. Imagine how much worse it is for others.
Reader’s input:
No one talked about the insanity of low graduation rates at public colleges. The local one for me, had a graduation rate in the teens. As in under twenty percent graduated. Under twenty percent!
Public colleges learned real quick to take anyone in, and screw them over with ‘basic high school’ classes, before putting the student in college level. Then, weeding them out, saying, you just can’t cut it, loser! No hint, that there were specific games the colleges played to force failure on 2/3’s of the class.
Putting students in ‘make work’ classes, before even starting the curriculum, supplied the college a year or two of finances, before kicking the young and desperate to the curb. They land demoralized and under thousands of dollars in debt that doesn’t work like a regular loan.
Again, it’s not the connected who fall into that trap. It’s the hopeful and unconnected. Note that in our case, it wasn’t even pretended that son needed to take remedial classes. He didn’t. He obviously didn’t. BUT most of the classes we got ‘we teach them differently’. Because apparently calculus isn’t calculus isn’t calculus.
Note also that a lot of the classes were taught by people um…. imported from abroad, with accents that were well nigh incomprehensible. Or whose standards are bizarre because, not the same culture. Students with a clue, connections, or willing to ask for help, drop those classes. Others…. well, it adds to the cut rate.
Younger son’s college was definitely a cut-them-in-two-years college. So, you know, he wasn’t cut. He was in the minuscule number that stayed on. I think about 10% in his specialty. Cutting colleges have always been a thing, and valid. Provided that after the cutting, you’re dealt fairly with. This didn’t happen. Most of the time the classes were “Can’t get that this semester. Oh, this semester you can get the two classes you need. PSYCH. They’re at the same time. It’s okay, we will offer the second in three years.”
We thought at the time this was a unique combination of son and college. …. turns out from other people I know and hear from, it’s a common and absolutely normal experience.
You might feel, smugly, that the fact that students take 7 years to finish a bachelor’s (Seems to be the average time) means kids these days just ain’t working. But I urge you to think again. I urge you to look closer. It’s mostly scheduling tricks, requiring people take bonehead classes “to make sure you’re prepared” etc. etc. etc. Older son got through in 5, but had to get permission to carry extra credits every semester. And was only granted that, because he was straight A or A+. B students, or A/B students wouldn’t be granted that. Also, btw, taking more credits than normal (because labs, study groups, workshops, discussions, etc are mandatory but not counted towards hours) meant he really couldn’t work, not even part time, something we’d counted on to keep the loans down.
Dan and I worked through college. When we first moved to Colorado, and the Medical School was nearby, a lot of med students waited tables at Pete’s. We’d talk to them sometimes. You don’t see that anymore, because they’re crammed with make work and barely making it through. Undergrad too.
When EVERYONE is having trouble making it through in a reasonable amount of time, or even when a majority is, look at the design. It’s the design.
(Here I want to point out that’s not true for all states/all public schools. Just what seems like a solid plurality of them.)
THE LOANS ARE NOT NORMAL LOANS:
No, it doesn’t work like a regular loan. It’s not simple interest. It’s a weird amalgam of compound in six-month increments. I only have experience with government student loans. The private sector has some even more predatory ones, which frankly, are terrifying.
The latest ‘reset’, not the $10K, but anyone paying over 20+ years will have loans ‘forgiven’, isn’t ‘forgiveness’. It’s a fix outright FRAUD. I call it “Fix the Fraud”.
Lawsuits are already rolling in over the incompetence and mismanagement over the 20+ years. Payments lost, totals incorrectly calculated, steering borrowers to the wrong program to make it easier, and more lucrative, for the loan servicer.
When the Income Dependent Payment (IDP) plan came along, it was so hard to figure out, the workers just steered people into forbearance. I was one of them. I should have been directed to IDP.
However, either way, the interest would still accrue. In both cases, the interest was just added to the principal every six months.
Which meant, the principal kept rising, because in both IDP, and regular repayment, INTEREST IS PAID FIRST, like a mortgage or car loan, before principal can be touched.
Any refinance, which the media is always pushing, resets the interest clock back to the higher levels.
In IDP, the payment didn’t even make a dent in the interest, with nothing going to the principal. Borrowers easily became overwhelmed with compounding interest. Compounding interest on an amount akin to a car, ending up the price of a house.
This may be fixed, or it may not. The link to what happened in June follows, but the details are so murky. I think, this is only for the first six months, then back to business as usual. I’m so gun-shy, I just hear “I am altering the deal, pray I don’t alter it any further.”
“Historically, when federal student loan payments were paused during a forbearance, interest has still accrued. And when the forbearance ends, all of that accrued interest would be capitalized, meaning added on to the loan principal. Interest would then continue accruing on that inflated balance, accelerating balance growth over time.”
However, there is a “Gotcha”. To even hope of getting the new relief, a borrower has to consolidate. Then this happens:
“However, if you consolidate your loans during this time, any unpaid interest on the loans you consolidate will become part of the principal balance of your new consolidation loan.”
When I went back to grad school, with company paying the tuition, my student loans were shoved into forbearance. I tried to refuse. I was told I could not. I tried to put the payments I would be making towards the unsubsidized interest and the principle. Heck, when I started making good money, I tired to pay one extra payment a year, to pull down the principle.
Each and every time, I was told “NO”. What I was asking for was impossible. This has since been fixed, but at the time, it was like this. Any payments I made, would be considered advance payments. The accruing interest could only be paid at the end of six months. This turned out to be a lie. It was just easier for the person on the phone to deal with the situation. My only other option, was to pay the Beast off in full. Which is what I’m waiting to do now. My retirement savings will take a hit, and it will count as income and be taxed as such.
If you’re looking at that and going “well, that’s a load of stupid.” You’d be wrong. it’s loads of stupid, one piled on the other. The things other people are dealing with are not quite the same. They’re sometimes easier, sometimes crazier, because it depends on WHEN and where you took the loans, what kind of crazy got thrown on top of it.
IT’S NOT DISCHARGEABLE IN BANKRUPTCY
So what happens if you don’t have savings, no one dies and leaves you the money to pay it off, etc?
It’s not like the Beast goes away when I retire! No, there are special rules on how to garnish it straight from my Social Security payments, including if I have other pension plans. Many people are now looking at retirement with a ravenous Beast over their heads.
No, they want me trickling out money to the Beast. In rough math, I will pay more than three times what I took out. THREE TIMES! Pay your de… ::spits::
How is that not fraud?
The IDP people, at least thought at the end of 20 years, the debt would disappear, so didn’t worry about the growing principal. Then, the discovery came out under an investigation, that the accounting of payments was lost between the different financing groups.
“Oops, me bad,” goes government, “Contractor messed up. We fined them, and they paid us millions in fines. What? You? You just keep paying for another ten years, and all will be good. Shut up, deadbeat.”
How is that not fraud?
Note that this reader who sent me this HAS a job. It could be much, much worse. Even my generation has a lot of people who’ve been in and out of jobs for 20 years.
NO ONE FORCED YOU TO TAKE THE LOAN. YOU COULD HAVE WORKED UNSKILLED
Have you looked around?
What do unskilled people do? Oh…. retail. That’s literally about it. The opened flood gates of illegals have kept even the wages in that really low. And the hours tend to be weird, I’m not sure if because management is sadistic, or because they just don’t care, or because there’s stupid regulations in the mix. Including if you have more than 30 hours they have to contribute to your healthcare.
A lot of other jobs which you could get trained for and have a career path are simply gone. They can get them done under the table. Or they can’t afford to pay all the benes the left passed to “help the workers.”
(And as a side note, miraculously younger son has a good job, and one he loves.That has nothing to do with what he officially studied. It’s a literal miracle, okay? But most people don’t get these. So, again not personal, though his experience made me see some things I hadn’t seen before.)
Yes, you can take technical certificates. I’m starting to look a little askance at how many people are taking welding, and wondering if there are jobs for all of them. I haven’t heard.
The truth is that against what’s said about them, a lot of these people, including people with unpayable loans have heeded the Mike Rowe call and headed for dirty, hard jobs. But they’re not as abundant as to soak up all of them. And no job pays well enough to allow people to pay massive loans and keep on trucking, okay? It doesn’t happen.
INSANITY PILED ON INSANITY
Have you wondered why during the Summers of Recovery colleges were doing great and had huge enrollments?
Well, one of the ways to PAUSE the student loan payments is to head back to school half time. When all else fails, you borrow more, and feed the dysfunctional system more.
Millenials might be the most educated generation in history on paper. Yes, it means that after a while you are taking degrees in underwater basket weaving, because you know, it’s the only thing you can take, while holding down a job and maybe having a kid. But that’s not how you started out.
As for fixing this, helping the college industry, this situation already is assisting them. What helps increase university enrollment? It’s not just the BS that everything needs a degree or some license. If you are enrolled part-time, that damn Beast is kept at bay. Some colleges, knowing this trick, changed their definition of part-time to one class per quarter versus semester. This attracts the desperate to keep the Beast at bay. (“Hey, I’ll take the fem studies, easy A, no real work, just regurgitate and the Beast is at bay.”)
DO you really think it’s a coincidence college enrollment fell while student loans were paused? Or do you think it won’t go back up again now?
This is what the system does: push more people into our dysfunctional, useless tertiary make work factories.
OKAY, BUT THEY SHOULD DO SOMETHING FOR US TO FORGIVE THE LOAN.
Oh, hi there. I didn’t’ realize AOC was a reader. WHY do you feel a need to indenture people to the government?
And don’t tell me they should enlist. The services are mighty choosy these days, for one, even if they can’t make numbers. For another, ask someone who is still or was recently in. You don’t wish that on anyone. And it’s still government servitude. And this government is…. well, fraudulent.
However, now you mention it it puts me in mind of “Doctors and lawyers” — the reason this argument is dumber than usual is because most doctors and lawyers go through another 10 years or more after high school and most of them don’t emerge after that to making crazy money. Most will aspire to about six figures, maybe, with luck.
And right now their massive loans are doing two things: A lot of them are working for the government. It’s their only hope of getting them forgiven in twenty years.
AND they don’t dare dissent from those in power. If you like lockstep doctors who don’t dare say boo to the latest insanity? If you like lawyers complicit with current abuses?
Keep the loans on them. That will teach them. And destroy our society with a bunch of debt-slaves who don’t dare dissent.
Envy of your ideal image of “Doctors and Lawyers” which is not even up to date, is not an excuse. Leave the politics of envy to the left please.
BUT IT’S NOT FAIIIIIIIIR
You’re right. It’s not fair. Fraudulent loans in any other medium, for any other purpose, you punish the fraudsters, not the recipient.
We don’t allow predatory credit card loans. Or home loans for swamp land in FL. And when we find them, we punish the lenders, not the recipients for being defrauded.
No, it doesn’t’ mean your mortgage should be forgiven. Or your credit card debt. Presumably you got what you paid for, with no tricks.
BUT that puts me in mind: when you took those loans, you knew and you know that if you run aground, you just declare bankruptcy. In most states your home and car is protected, even.
So, why is it different for student loans?
Well, the lender is the government. And oh, yeah,the fraudsters are the government, and leftist institutions aided, abetted and accredited by the government. You’re right. This is the fault of the loan recipients. Of course. After all they chose to be born now, under this government and into this totally effed up situation. (Are you for real?)
BUT THE MIDDLE CLASS WILL PAY
Will they now?
Looks interested. WHY?
I mean, I can see that someone crazy in the government would decided to raise taxes with that excuse, but then….. do they need an excuse?
I’ll repeat what BGE said in a comment:
I am a great believer that loans should be repaid, but I’m afraid the notion that the taxpayers will be stuck is not really true. It’s a sunk cost, it’s already been paid for. The vast majority of student loans are held as an “asset” at the Dept. of Education. Student Loan interest had been the third largest source of govt revenue after income taxes and mortgage interest.
Still, I’m afraid that it could be wiped out with the stroke of a pen and not have any cash effect at all since the bureaucracy needed to administer it eats up the proceeds. I suppose the bureaucracy won’t go away — it seldom does — but, and a I hate to open myself up to the accounting absolutists, government accounting is just BS. Most accounting is just BS. Cash matters, cash flow matters, the rest is mostly BS.
What he said. The money is already spent, and worked into your inflation, taking money out of your pocket every minute.
It’s already aggregated to a debt no one can pay. The middle class — and everyone else– has already paid for this bloody stupid mis-allocation of resources.
Anyone who claims otherwise is either naive or appealing to the politics of envy to perpetuate debt slavery. Don’t be that guy.
WHAT I THINK SHOULD HAPPEN
I think student loans should be made dischargeable in bankruptcy immediately. Yesterday if possible.
Further, I think we need investigations of lending practices and what is actually going on in colleges, and there should be lawsuits against many colleges for outright fraud. Hey, maybe some of those struggling lawyers can be given employment.
The end result if that could happen would be a complete reform of our educational system top to bottom, and maybe the building of something where if you can do it, you can get the job and enjoy the results.
Not college for everyone, no. But also not college only for those with the money to pay upfront. And not college that’s free only for illegals and designated minorities.
WHAT WILL HAPPEN?
Nothing. The left is in power, and this is feeding leftist indoctrination and the government. You can’t sue or investigate either.
The left will make some pretend moves. Poor saps will think their only hope of a life is voting for the commies. Youth will be unable to have lives, and will hate everyone older than them with the fire of a thousand suns. Expect us to go Canada with euthanasia.
BUT more importantly, the right will fall in its designated villain role, and make noises about “pay up, deadbeats” so the debt slaves will hate them more.
So, can I at least get you not to put both feet in your mouth? And if you think you’re not being manipulated into your reaction by the mass media, you haven’t THOUGHT.
Think about it. Consider this is a trap constructed by government. Ask yourself how much you trust government.
Do what you can, sure. Give someone a chance. Help them find a job. Offer some kindness. IF you can show someone in this situation a path out. I don’t know what the path would be, but try, okay?
And talk people out of going to or going back to college. It won’t do much, some have to. It’s that or make payments they CAN’T make. Figure out how to starve the beast.
BUT above all, do try not to sound like Scrooge in a modern production of Dickens.
Most people can’t pay the loans, because they were designed not to be payable back. Like everything else, they’re supposed to create a plantation where the slaves vote the right way.
And that’s bad for the slaves, for us, and for the Republic.
G-d bless us, one and all.































































