Of all the ideas in Heinlein fiction that would be useful, the most impossible isn’t his “sensitives” that can communicate telepathically or otherwise circumvent technology. I mean, those seem impossible, but to be honest, we haven’t really tried for them.
The most impossible, which seemed, I think, back when he wrote them, “just within reach” are things that, though I don’t remember the exact names he used (a sure sign it’s time to re-read) involve making the sciences of psychology and sociology, let alone linguistics into exact sciences, so the number is computable and the outcomes precise.
In a way it is a very mid-century idea for the 20th century. Part of the whole rule by experts, and everything being planned from the top down involved of course exact outcomes that could be exactly computed and calculated.
Well… it’s not like that. And we know that’s a good thing, because it keeps the idiots at the top from attempting to herd us like cattle and create what they think is utopia and is in fact a horror. But it doesn’t keep them from trying.
Yes, the commenter who said something about “10% parasites, all is lost” wrote back. He says — and I believe him, btw. This is not an adversarial response, but one that involves answering the ideas. Because the ideas, obviously, are out there. The fact they’re crazy cakes somehow gets lost even to very intelligent people, which my commenter is. So they need airing — he read something about when there is a minority that is determined not to be absorbed and has its own language and costumes, even just 10% of the population, it will destroy the nation. This made me laugh so hard in “European-raised before highways” that I can’t begin to make you understand. BUT I’ll try. Oh, I’ll try.
I suspect it all comes from — who was it — and his idea that if a minority of as much as ten percent holds its breath and threatens to turn blue long enough, the majority will give in. This, I suspect is a way to explain what the left did to the west in the 20th century all while ignoring the elephant in the room. Which is very human and utterly infuriating. It reminds me of explanations for why the artistic and literary establishments were dominated by the left back in the old days, including “The right just isn’t creative” while we who saw this from the other side knew it was because the establishment discriminated on politics. But this never occurred to the analysts.
Anyway, first, the thing the commenter said he meant. This made my jaw drop and my mind blow. I imagine whoever came up with this piece of brilliance (NOT my commenter) is a dyed in the wool racist, and that this was aimed at the US’s black population, which is around 14% I think, at last counting. Yes, they’ve been indoctrinated not to assimilate, and that’s a problem, but it’s a problem caused by the people who instituted public schooling creating they wanted the opposite — integration, in that case of immigrants — and all the kids knowing the same things. Remember that, because it’s what they always do given the chance.
It is not a natural factor, and absent continuous indoctrination and bizarre forms of governmental discrimination in the name of “helping” it would be gone within a generation.
But would the the black population of the US “fully integrated” and not have “distinctive language”? Look bub, it never was. Nor were any of the other tiny groups. Cultures, even after someone gets fully assimilated, when the population retains a group — not an isolated individual — have…..very long half lives.
Did it rip apart the US? Well, no. Not so long as there was a general culture, a civic set of beliefs that made us American.
If you think that we must all have the exact same linguistic expression, set of beliefs and cultural presentation for the country to survive, the country should be no larger than about a thousand people. And about 15 miles square. And that might be pushing it.
Okay, I exaggerate, because we do have highways and mass communication means. But the local variation is much larger than most people realize. And while I realize I’m ESL (Actually ETL) and deaf to boot, regional dialects might not be their own language, but they might as well be.
And all of us have groups we let our hair down with. I know when I realize new acquaintances that I’m desperately trying to be “normal” for reveal themselves as our brand of geek, I can feel the pressure coming off.
Now, is that the same as say importing boatloads of ENIMICAL culture individuals, like, say, Somalians? Who have a different religion, different language and hate us with a burning passion?
No. Will it destroy the country? No. Mostly it will destroy THEM. Because they are too convinced of their own inherent superiority, and let’s face it, they were brought in as weapons by our idiots. So they’re going to go off. After which, they’ll be gone.
Throughout history, the only minorities like that that manage to stay separate and SAFE are the ones that are brought in to be elites, and protected from the populus. Yes, I do realize that this is exactly what our overlords think they’re doing. Our overlords are idiots studying to be morons, okay? They see savagery and mistake it for a warlike disposition. These are not the Teutonic Knights of the Holy Cross. They are not capable of holding the American population (THE AMERICAN POPULATION!) cowed by their superior war like skills. They’re crazy rebarbarized populations, ululating their entitlement and hatred of the general population. We’ll tolerate them as long as they’re tolerable. And then…
Look, even with populations brought in to be overlords, whose dominion lasted centuries, when they stopped being protected/kept in a superior position to the general population, two things happened: A vast number of them got killed. Messily. The rest integrated, with nary a peep.
Oh, there is a third one: the indigestible minority leaves. Or separates into its own country. But that takes either 50/50 separation or…. well, yes, the Jews didn’t integrate. That could also be what the original proponents of this lovely idea were aiming for. Here’s the thing though: the Jews didn’t integrate-ish. But they did. Spanish Jews spoke a different form of Spanish, not a different form of German. And the genes drifted as well. Yes, there is a genetic marker, but that’s not as strong as you’d think.
And for that it took not just a religion, but a strong religion that appeals to very stubborn people and circumstances that for various reasons selected for intelligence and argumentativeness.
Also, contrary to the delusions of the Nazis it tore no country apart. The Jewish minority, in most countries, functions as a fully integrated part of the whole and brings distinct benefits to the nation. Only crazy people think otherwise, though it’s a popular illusion, mind. It’s also one that, when that minority is killed or expelled, leaves the country a mess and materially and culturally impoverished. (No? Fight me, she says in Portuguese! Do you think it’s a coincidence Portugal never rose to world-power again? Also, FYI Henry the Navigator was 1/4 converso. I said and will stick by it, FIGHT me.)
More importantly, everywhere in old Europe, there were little villages with their culture, customs, ideas, and languages, often the remnant of old languages in that area. I can’t be the only one who learned “Standard” language in school for the first time. Now, what we spoke at home was mostly understandable, but not standard in any way. And I found out later when I opened my mouth without thinking, my college professors could pinpoint my origin to within a mile of home.
Those countries weren’t torn apart. Well, they were but fighting other countries, and the cultures in Europe all still demand that. I’m frankly not even mad, more impressed that the EU hasn’t exploded yet.
They weren’t torn apart, because they had a set of beliefs that held them together. In this case a blood-and-soil myth that the borders held ein volk, ein– You get it.
Myth? Oh, dear Lord. My sons call Portugal “the reservoir tip at the end of Europe” and they’re not wrong, due to the duality of being at the extreme edge, and basically a vast seaport with a tiny country attached. I used to be able to — but would now take a lot of alcohol to perform — sing-song all the people’s who had come and stayed, contributing to the “Portuguese race.” But here’s the thing, children…. it’s not a race. It’s not even an integrated nationality. Yes, even to my eyes now, they all look the same-ish. But I remember when I lived there, and I could tell where people came from by their look. Celtic and Germanic is mostly in the North. The South has a lot of Moor still, and– Oh, I might not distinguish all the thirty or so people’s that contributed to the whole, but I could give you a general “feel”. (Germanic looks, btw, were mostly lower class, and not for the reason you expect. You see, the Moors, which were the large last group deposed and subdued by arms had a bad habit of kidnapping blonds and redheads. So. Add a few centuries and shake well…)
And even when I was a kid there were DEEP rifts, in how you cooked, how you kept house, how you LIVED. But the country wasn’t torn apart.
Nor were the other European countries. Now, some might not be quite so promiscuous as Portugal — and some are more — but look you I remember British friends who could tell the ancestry of someone they met to the area of the country they came from. And you know what, according to my linguistic professors, some of that went back to the teapot-sized countries that the nation originated from.
Cultures take time to mix and assimilate. Centuries. But the countries can be healthy nonetheless, provided there is a set of beliefs in the country. Yes, that can be the blood and soil myth in Europe. Here, our constitution is fine, thank you.
What happened in Germany wasn’t the result of an unassimilated minority. It was the result of a culture in deep crisis crossed with a time when it was assumed the “experts” could design everything from the top down. The fact that they were trying to resolve the problem of a deeply wounded national ego by blaming a minority that was VISIBLE because of their different attire and customs, and trying to solve it by eliminating it and pushing conformity from the top down doesn’t mean it’s inevitable.
It means it’s a danger for deeply wounded cultures, with a myth of UNITY and blood-and-soil. For us the danger hinges more on equality, which leaves us wide open to the politics of envy. But the nation isn’t deep crisis. The elites are. They’re just inflicting their psychosis on us.
Anyway, I’ve spent way too long on what is OBVIOUSLY someone’s racist and anti-semitic hangup. I’d guess someone not culturally American. (And no, not my commenter.)
And the original person decided in the beginning these “minorities” were a problem, and then justified it. OBVIOUSLY. Because otherwise, it’s adding two plus two and getting kumquat, and I recommend Thorazine.
Just like the hangups on “EQUALITY”, if a nation is absolutely uniform (and ten percent is a pretty small minority, btw) in income/lifestyle or language/cultural expression, it’s not a sign of health and strength. It’s a sign of a serious totalitarianism, squishing everything down.
I’ll tell you the same I tell the people who list inequality as a problem, “You’re trying to solve a feature as if it were a problem.”
An absolutely unified nation WITHOUT a minority that refused to be assimilated has never existed, outside maybe the earliest nation states. And even there, I doubt it. The problems come when the culture is in crisis and tries to make everyone exactly alike. But a culture in crisis exaggerates even the slightest problems. So, you know, them over there, who use clay pots for their stew instead of cast iron, can become a whole “unintegrated minority” at need. But it’s a mirage, really. And what tears the nation apart is something else. The minority is just something convenient to blame.
So much for that. Yes, we do have a problem (fight me on that too) with not only not encouraging people to speak English, but catering to a dozen langages so as not to be “racist” and refusing to let kids be taught to assimilate. I KNOW I had to fight to keep my kids from being put in Spanish-only (of all things) school, and I am not, nor ever was, a Spanish speaker, and am married to someone whose ancestors have been here from the beginning, save for the ones that met them on the shore. So, you know?
We have a huge problem. It’s called a massive and too powerful government with illusions of intellectual superiority. Remove that, and people will integrate or flee. (And keep in mind I still think most of the newest arrivals are here because they were promised benefits, and we’d be better off without them. In fact, a bunch are running the other way when the teat dries.)
Otherwise? People can and will integrate. No? Laughs in Italian and Irish.
Now, on the other one, the “if a minority holds its breath till it turns blue, we’ll give them what they want because we hate to be mean!”
Do I need to point out that’s bullshit? If that were true, guns would already be forbidden, since they’ve been the main push of the proto-commies and commies since…. oh, forever?
So, where did this analyst of social evolution come up with that? Easy peasy. Disregard the fact that every means of mass communication, down to commercialized artistic expression supported the push of the Marxists, and you come up with some strange sh*t to explain the 20th century.
I’ve pointed this before, and it’s only visible now because it’s no longer working as it used to, but there used to be a push on EVERYTHING for whatever their pet cause was at the time. When their push was to get abortion federally legalized… Well, let’s say I’ve read a lot of period novels. Almost all of them had someone die of a botched abortion. So did the movies. Or worse, they had someone destroyed, going insane from having a “bastard”. ALMOST every one. It was a pervasive wall of propaganda.
And with all that, we don’t even know if it convinced the people at large. Why? Because when that level of propaganda is deployed, people who dissent are afraid to say it. Those of you who were recently college students will know what I’m talking about. Step out of line, and you just ruined all your prospects in life, and people will know you as “that crazy person.” (Or in my case, “A little peculiar.” Yes, very proud of that.)
I know in the present day where, despite their stomping, we can still talk around the edges, and more importantly, the information/entertainment is not unified, they deployed the same thing to make us feel like open borders were the bestest thing. And it’s not working. It’s not working with teeth in it. But Lord, they tried. From city-commissioned murals, to the stories that get awards, to the series that are changed to be all about immigration, to– It’s everywhere. And they can’t understand why it’s not working. (Part of the reason it’s not working is because the quality of entertainment/literature and art that pushes the message has got so bad — because they select creators on the basis of conformity, of course — that people are reading older things, and indie things, and foreign things. And they get news from other countries, as well. So the push is not working.)
But yeah, all the remarkable “gains” of the left during the twentieth century is because cancel culture, whisper campaigns, and hiring and promoting for social conformity were already fully on.
So, the dispirited dissenters thought they were the only ones, and kept their mouths shut.
This is not effective in the long run. In the long run, it leads to Romanian Christmas. BUT in the short run, and if the people doing the analysis refuse to see the elephant in the room, it gives the impression of a minority getting all their crazy wish list, because the majority is just so nice, and doesn’t want to say no.
At any rate, these are things that superficially seem to make sense, but not when you really dig for all the factors, or look at similar situations in history.
Sure, unassimilated minorities are bad. They also only stay ABSOLUTELY separate if the government of the land is enforcing that. And even then they don’t. It just takes them MUCH longer to integrate.
And sure, some cultures are utterly toxic and inimical to civilization. (Judaism might be the opposite. As with cats, where they are, there is civilization.) And they’re very hard to eliminate while keeping the people. And only insane people would invite them into their home country. But our elites are bugnuts, and hate us with the fire of a thousand suns.
Still, the problem is self-resolving when the government stops protecting the invaders. And no, I don’t even mean violence, unless it’s getting what they dish out. And my guess is it will mostly result in fleeing while a small contingent quiet assimilates and disappears into the population. Because frankly the overculture doesn’t work well with tribal mentality. And it won’t.
Anyway, this is why social math, or scientific psychology and sociology don’t exist. You can’t set controlled experiments with that kind of system over time. So, it’s impossible to say “Once you reach x number of dissenters, this happens.” Because you can’t experiment to prove it.
What you have is history, which often in the telling ignores the elephant in the room, for the same reason that fish, if they had language, wouldn’t have a word for “water.” (They’d have 100 words, including one for water that smells like poo, but that’s something else. Just go with the metaphor, okay?) Everyone in one of the fields where the left enforced conformity in the 20th century knew what was happening (What, you thought everyone all at once just needed to write about people dying in botched abortions? Thorazine. You need it.) But they didn’t know/couldn’t see it was universal. So it appears in nothing. And trying to analyze from the “history” is a fool’s errand.
As for psychology, though there was some outright crazy stuff done in the late nineteenth century and also by the Nazis, it’s really hard to eliminate all other factors that lead to outcomes in humans, and experimenting is a chamber of horrors I’d like to keep shut, thank you.
So again anyone who comes up with a number, or a population percentage that guarantees an outcome, is trying to sound super-scientific and is just making shit up. Some might not realize they’re making shit up, so I’ll credit them with stupid honesty. But I suspect most do realize it.
And anyone who comes up with a number or a percentage of the population who is tying their belts funny, or speaking with a weird accent, or eating those disgusting onions, or WHATEVER IT IS as a reason why “everything is lost, give up now.” Is an enemy. An enemy of humans. An enemy of civilization and an enemy of America.
No one runs around telling one side of the fight to just give up if they want it to win. And no one does it when the side is ALREADY defeated.
The only reason to run around saying “Give up now!” is a psi-ops by those who want you defeated, and are afraid you won’t be.
Keep that in mind, before you doom. The times being what they are, and the private pressures being what they are, not to mention the psychological fractures of 2020, a lot of us go through black moments. Actually black moments from the pit of hell are not rare.
HOWEVER try to keep your black moments to a few friends. And don’t trust anyone who shouts them in public, and wants to convince you it’s all lost.
Those people are not your friends. And what they want is not the restoration of America.