Twenty One Years On, We Remember

(Promo Post Tomorrow.)

Where I live it is a beautiful, sunny, crisp September day. It always gives me the creeps.

Before September 11 I was a Libertarian. After, I moderated a lot. The crazy days we’re living through are slowly taking me back there.

Too many mixed emotions for a coherent post today. Apparently the raid on Trump supporters have now extended to his lawyers, and the number is up to 50. This is no longer a fishing expedition but a noxious campaign of intimidation.

I wonder how far down they will go, and when it stops with an Earth Shattering Kaboom. Because you know and I know they’re messing around. And we all know what inevitably happens.

And reading that, this bright and early September morning, the rage came back. 9/11 happened, and Americans died, because the ANTI-Americans Clintons were in the White House, and because our intelligence agencies which at their best are wet kleenex, and at worst are wet kleenex soaked in arsenic decided that the possibility of a terrorist attack on US soil was not nearly as important as securing the eternal glory of the Democratic party. Or perhaps enough of the high enough, political enough military commanders wanted a reason to act. I don’t know. But I wouldn’t put it past them, given what they’d do later, including lying to a commander in chief they disagreed with.

No, I don’t think 9/11 was an inside job. I also don’t think our response made any sense. Yes, we should have responded, with enormous and “disproportionate” force. And risking as few of our men as possible. Break things, tell them we’ll come back if they do it again. Rinse, repeat.

Somewhere along the line — possibly after WWII –the US became convinced its military power was a sort of charitable enterprise, designed to make the world Utopia. Instead of protecting our people and our interests. That has to change. It has to change if we are to survive.

This year the anger and grief choke me. I have written a guest post for Victory Girls.

And my post from last year still stands.

Twenty one years on, I trust our government less than I did. I trust America more than I did.

I trust us — those who are Americans by choice and nature, by birth and love — to endure, and to set things right eventually.

Make no mistake, though. We have our work cut out for us.

Today…. Today I’ll give myself time to mourn and be angry. For those who died, and for those of us who have to live with the shattering of our illusions.

Tomorrow, we get back to the fight.

341 thoughts on “Twenty One Years On, We Remember

  1. Not a perfect example; but somewhat relevant.

    To take your chance in the thick of a rush, with firing all about,
    Is nothing so bad when you’ve cover to ‘and, an’ leave an’ likin’ to shout;
    But to stand an’ be still to the Birken’ead drill is a damn tough bullet to chew…

    We owe it to those who could not escape their fate to make America what it should be.

    Sure, we can argue about causes; but I have nothing but contempt for those who justify the murder of civilians, especially women and children, for pretty much any reason.

    The fact is that Americans have added more good to the world than harm. And we need to avoid electing people who hate America.

    We also need to be “light and salt” to those around us. No one knows what they’re going through but them; but a kind word might be all they needed to carry on.

    We may not be called to “lead a charge” or “stand to” on a sinking ship; but let us remember to take care of our neighbors.

  2. God Bless America,
    Land that I love.
    Stand beside her, and guide her
    Thru the night with a light from above.
    From the mountains, to the prairies,
    To the oceans, white with foam
    God bless America, My home sweet home.

  3. There is too much grief and anger today for anything but a nod to the post and a commitment to fight until I can’t.

    A good friend of mine, a firefighter, raised two firefighter sons. One died on 9/11.

  4. Bushie jr. was in the WH, not the clintons, btw but same same, not an iota of difference. Bush or clinton crime family, take your pick. Absolutely was an inside job, literally, There has never been a skyscraper taken down by fire before 9/11, nor since. Not to mention the third one ( #7 ) than was taken down, not hit by anything. Not to mention the ridiculous nonsense story about what did or did not hit the pentagon. I know a lot about controlled demolition, them three boyz was taken out inside the walls ( yep, another “inside” job slant fer ya ).
    We are supposed to believe for example 2 jets hit two towers and the entire plane went into the bldgs, wings and all, neer to be seen again. Look at the dimensions, impossible. But yet, the pilots passport was found in the debris. Like the magic bullet that killed jfk, a lot of magic here. Check out the footage of little bushie getting the news while reading to kids- shocked he wasn’t.
    Anyway, just another albeit huge one, in a series of never-ending lies, corruption, murders, chaos, but at all time LIES LIES LIES. No thats not accurate enough. Lies are one thing, but they are only components of the massive pysch-ops coming at us 24/7. We have been treated like cattle by TETB ( the evil that be ), and are now in the middle of their endgame.
    I agree that we will win out somehow, with massive loss of life in the meantime va x x, famine, cold , and whatever else they still have in their playbook.
    Cheers!!

      1. I was working for the Army. My command had hooked our computers to Fox and CNN, so we had live, ringside seats.
        I remember. I remember how the towers came apart from the top down, where the planes had hit, rather than the bottom up (the way an implosion usually works). I remember the sick feeling when the second tower came down. I remember the face of our friend, a father, who used to come and build armor in our basement when we lived in New Jersey, who was in a tower and didn’t get out. And God help me, I remember the images I saw later of the people who decided jumping was better than burning to death.

        1. The twin towers had a rather unique design and were the first tall skyscrapers that used their design. The design has a very nasty you get intense heat which destroys the central core beams that hold everything up, the floors above the point of the destruction will literally drop down from force of gravity onto the ones below, and so on and so on until the whole things come down. Osama Bin Laden was an engineer by training, and Al Qaeda almost certainly know of this structural flaw prior to the attack.

            1. If you’re referring to the core/periphery arrangement, that’s widely used because it maximizes open space on the floor. There was, however, a specific design flaw in the connections between floor beams and columns that caused them to fail far earlier than the design engineers expected.

              The heat that caused the failure came not from the remaining fuel, but from the building contents.

              1. It is widely used now. The particular type of core/periphery that the World Trade Center towers used was new when they were first built.

          1. It’s a pretty classic semi-monocoque design – a aviation design, turned on end and applied to a building.

        2. It was later in the day when I heard about the Event.

          I had worked a late shift at a local 7-11 and the first I heard of it was when I turned on my computer to see the news about it.

          Crazily my first thought was “Is This Some Sort Of Hoax?” but I soon realized that it wasn’t.

          Much of that day was a daze in my memory and the main thing I remember was the “rush on gas” at the 7-11 that I worked at (and other gas stations). (I had gone in even though I wasn’t scheduled to work.)

          I remember being sent to another 7-11 to help out that evening (late shift).

          It was unreal.

    1. Structure fires routinely exceed 1500F-1700F which is the approximate critical temperature for most simple carbon steel. It’s the point where a magnet will no longer adhere to the steel. No need to melt it. It is quite pliable in that state.

      The WTC acted like a chimney, so plenty of natural draft to oxygenate those roaring fires, easily observed in all footagebofvit, until the steel exceeded critical, went soft, slumped, and failed.

      You can easily achieve 1700F with a barbecue propane tank and a shop vac blower, in a firebrick forge. I used to do this when forging knives.

      So go pound sand. If you had even half-assed tried you could have looked up info on structure fires, steel critical temps, etc. Instead you ate shit and burped a post.

      Be ashamed.

      1. I have a Coleman stove that’s mute testimony to steel getting soft with heat. Seems melting a big pot of lead wasn’t a great idea…

        Various reports after the attack pointed out that the terrorist pilots picked specific levels to hit the buildings. (If memory serves, it was either 1/3rd, though I can’t remember if that’s from the top or the bottom. Can’t bear to look at the video…) The idea was to maximize the building’s collapse.

        OTOH, there are groups of conspiracy theorists who are convinced that the Building 7 (housing a bunch of federal agencies) collapse was a demolition. It implies that there was foreknowledge of the attacks, and after the events of the years since then, I can’t discount that theory. (About the foreknowledge. I don’t have the structural engineering chops to evaluate the stuff on Building 7.)

    2. Well, there we have a prime example of Brandolini’s Law: the effort required to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude greater than went into making it. I will spend some of that effort, and leave the rest of the bullshit to others.

      There has never been a skyscraper taken down by fire before 9/11, nor since.


      Nobody ever dumped 20,000 gallons of burning Jet-A fuel into a skyscraper before, nor since. Dozens of half-melted steel support beams were recovered from the wreckage. Core temperature of the fires has been estimated at 2,500° F, enough to reduce the strength of steel beams by 80%.

      We are supposed to believe for example 2 jets hit two towers and the entire plane went into the bldgs, wings and all, neer to be seen again. Look at the dimensions, impossible.


      Bullshit. The wingspan of a Boeing 767 is 156 feet, the buildings were 208 feet square. B is greater than A; therefore A fits into B with room to spare. Both planes were loaded with fuel for a long flight, meaning they weighed about 130 tons each, and struck at more than 150 MPH. The hole in Tower 2 even looked like the outline of an airplane.

      That’s all the stupid bullshit I have the time, or interest, to refute. Next!
      ———————————
      It takes a LOT of education to make somebody that stupid.

      1. 100%

        Also disagree that Bush Jr wasn’t surprised. The look on his face was utter disbelief. Reaction beyond that? He was sitting in front of kindergartners (young school children at any rate) for crying out loud. By the time we saw him next he had time to school himself into not overreacting. Did he immediately go or show histrionics? No. If he had the complaint would be “He wasn’t presidential! WhaaaaaaaaReeeeee”.

        1. If he’d wigged out the way some fools claim he should have: “He terrified those poor little children! How could he? Waaaaaahhhh! The mean old meanie.” It’s so predictable that it’s almost boring at this point. No matter what you do, it’s wrong.

        2. the funny thing is…

          We’re supposed to believe that 9/11 was all Bush’s fault, even tho he’d only been in office for nine months.

          The same people insist that we believe that the economy going in the tank now, is not Biden’s fault, even tho he’s been in office for over twice as long.

      1. VERY crazy. The Pentagon conspiracy theories are more nonsensical. My personal favorite is that someone flew an RQ-4 into the building.

        I was part of the DARPA team that developed that aircraft, was the Government air vehicle test lead for it…and all RQ-4s built are accounted for. They are VERY scarce assets (and battle-winners, in the right hands).

    3. The main problem with most of these crackpot conspiracy theories is the sheer number of people that would have to be in on the con. Remember “Three people can keep a secret, if two of them are dead”? It’s a hundred times bigger than that.

      How many building demolition experts were there in 2011? Because, trust me, taking down the World Trade Center towers would require experts. How many would have been evil enough to take the job? Why was there not a rash of ‘mysterious deaths’ among the non-evil demolition experts who refused?

      It’s like the perennial ‘Moon Landing Hoax’ twaddle. It would actually have been a bigger, more complex job to fake the moon landings with 1960’s technology than to build rockets and go there for real. Not to mention the thousands of people involved, who somehow managed to keep the secret perfectly for 40 years. Idiocy!
      ———————————
      “A committee is a life-form with a dozen mouths, a dozen stomachs, and no brain.”

      1. How would they plant the charges and wire them up AND keep them from going off prematurely? I remember seeing a documentary of a controlled demolition. It took a bunch of work, including drilling holes into support beams and placing the charges in those holes, to get it all done.

        1. Controlled demo often needs tension cables to pull things in the desired direction once the ripple charges start firing. Kinda hard to miss that much new steel cable, and the new anchors …

          Nah.

          1. Around the watercooler in a WTC office…
            “Say, Bob. What are those cable things doing all over the office?”
            “No idea. Must be some test or something…”
            😉

      2. Not to mention the eyewitnesses.
        BTW, our friend’s name was Nick Bogdan. He’d probably be a grandfather now, if only…

        1. Re “miraculous,” survival of passports, etc: it’s always astonishing what survives a chaotic event. After the 2013 tornados in North Alabama, I found part of someone’s bank statement from Russellville in our front yard. It’s a good 60 miles away.

          1. Tornado, F3, ripped through my area a decade plus ago. Nearest wrecked building was something like two miles direct. My neighborhood was littered with roof insulation shreds and bits of roofing materials.

            And a squashed formerly sturdy office chair in the middle of my driveway at the road. Squashed as if dropped from a great height.

            Two miles from the nearest wrecked building.

            They found recognizeable item debris from the Columbia. One item was a wrecked main landing gear assembly, still with recognizeable tires. Survived uncontrolled reentry and burn-up. How…

            1. Tornadoes, especially strong ones, do this all the time. The radar technology has gotten so good that radar signatures of the stronger tornadoes show the debris that is being picked up.

              1. Yup. Even after neighborhood and tornado pickup crews, and several years, there’s still recognizable tornado-made debris all over one side of Beavercreek. Down by cricks and in the woods, mostly, but sometimes even in open fields. Lots of papers and junk mail.

          2. My neighborhood in Brooklyn was directly downwind of the funeral pyre of 2,753 of my fellow New Yorkers. Along with the rain of ashes were papers that floated several miles through the sky—I snagged some out of the air myself.

          3. This puts me in mind of a funny story, which is good because I’m getting all wound up and need to calm down. When the Mets – FWIW i hate the Mets, I’m a Yankee fan, but the one exception is beantown — beat the hated Boston Red Sox in the 1986 World Series — Buckner dropped the ball 😀 — they held a ticker tape parade for them.

            Now, most of the buildings on lower Broadway have windows that open and anything paper lying around tends to get thrown out. I was walking home from work after the parade when I saw a couple of guys in good suits rummaging through the, literally, foot high mounds of paper that covered the sidewalk. A cop was standing there watching them, small world I knew him, and I asked “what are they looking for, there’s no chance they’ll find anything in this pile.”

            he said “J-sus, Don’t tell anyone, they work for Drexel Burnham Lambert and somebody up there threw a stack of bearer bonds out the window and if anyone finds out there’ll be a riot.”

            I laughed all the way home. Never look for malice when stupidity is available as an explanation.

              1. Yeah. Funniest thing I ever saw. I was working at 195 Broadway at the time and we had an oh sh-t moment when we realized that all loose paper on our desk was going to get thrown out the window. We all went running back to our desks but some were too late. I suspect the Drexel Burnham guy was trying to impress some girl by putting a couple million dollars into her hands,

                I’ve been dining out on that story for years.

      3. My continual rebuttal to the Moon Landing Hoax (usually with the claim that Stanley Kuberick was the one responsible) is-
        “Well, yes. He did. But, he was such a stickler for authenticity that they actually did film it on the moon.”

        1. Neil Armstrong’s flubbed line.

          “That’s one small step for (a) man….”

          Besides, any earth- orbiting camera with a spycam grade camera can see the descent stages of the LEMs, and some can see the freaking footprints. Like Russia or China didn’t look to make sure…..

          Bah.

      4. My daughter’s favorite conspiracy theory is that they really did fake the moon landing—but they had to film it on location to make it look convincing.

    4. I guess y’all forget the thousands of engineers and architects who came out and said the official story was BS. Probably also forget Rumsfields presser the DAY sept 10 before saying “Goshun, we done lost $2.3 trillion, folks.” Totally unaccounted for, and then sumpin happened the next day and it was all forgotten. What a coinkadink , but hell it’s only 2.3 trillion, nothing to see here folks move along. Oh, and why WTC #7, why that buiding? What was stored there? Anyway, far too many deets to get into, but I love the standard fallback
      How could you pull this off, too many people involved?
      That IS a tough one, it’s not like we have any secret ( or lately not so secret ) cabals of say bored trillionaires looking to, I don’t know, infect, then inject , then starve, then take away power, then water, then then then.
      Yeah, you’re right too hard to pull off. Like killing JFK, MLK, RFK, Princess Diana, and only god knows how many more ( hint: it’s a very very big number ). Very tricky, no way, we must have been mistaken.

      1. Did Vox Day demand all of his taint lickers come over and stir the pot because nobody was paying attention to their conspiracy theories and horse shit excuses for racism, again?

      2. Okay, if it needs clarifying: The government is a force of bumbling stupidity. It always has been.
        What you are attributing to them: EASILY explained by other means (and has been, for all those assassinations) is a fiendish ability to identify a threat to them — sometimes in someone who NOT ONLY wasn’t a threat, but was on their side, like Diana — and then eliminate them in fiendishly clever ways.
        I don’t know what planet you come from. But in my world, the government can’t find its ass with two hands and a seeing eye dog.
        IF it could, we’d already ALL be slaves.
        As for all your “you forgot” they’re the type of things that form a trail in the mind in the grip of schizophrenic delusion. For everyone else it’s “What the heck, really?”

      3. I guess y’all forget the thousands of engineers and architects who came out and said the official story was BS. Probably also forget Rumsfields presser the DAY sept 10 before saying “Goshun, we done lost $2.3 trillion, folks.”

        Good heavens.

        The press conference was fire and brimstone down on bad accounting practices, covering a great deal of time, and even through 9/11 they kept working at it, and gosh– AFTER they fixed the computer systems, turned out that there was a ton of Just Bad Accounting Paperwork, including “Wait, how do I ‘upload’ a receipt?”

        The first clue should’ve been that the entire Federal Gov’t didn’t spend that many trillion in 1999…..

        Here’s a decent summary of the notion:
        https://www.metabunk.org/threads/debunked-rumsfeld-says-2-3-trillion-missing-from-the-pentagon.165/

        From the report that came out in October of that year:
        While DoD may debate some of the criticisms of its financial statements and the size and components of the $2.3 trillion issue, we think that corrective action requires radical financial management transformation. For the FY 1999 financial statements, the auditors concluded that $2.3 trillion transactions of the $7.6 trillion entries to the financial statements were “unsupported”. DoD notes that many of these entries included end-of- period estimates for such items as military pension actuarial liabilities and contingent liabilities, and manual entries for such items as contract accounts payable and property and equipment values. DoD would further note that the “unsupported” entries are “not necessarily improper” and that documentation does exist in many cases, albeit, not adequate for the auditing standards imposed.

        1. “DoD would further note that the “unsupported” entries are “not necessarily improper” and that documentation does exist in many cases, albeit, not adequate for the auditing standards imposed.”

          Foxfier is right on this one. I worked on various DoD accounting systems over the years; the last one was for the USMC thru 2018. The accounting systems are a mess, and they are a mess in large part because of the procurement regs prescribed by Congress, trying to reconcile inventories being maintained under wartime conditions and across services, etc.

          “Hey, I can’t find the barcode on this engine we need to swap out so this truck can move.”

          “OK, swap it and we’ll sort it out later,”

          “Hey, where’s that engine so I can get the numbers?”

          “Already sent back to depot…. I think.”

          1. You probably saw the poor… [guys]…. who did their travel claims and accounting couldn’t figure it out, so submitted it….and they had to pay out of pocket and pray they got repaid, which is at least six entries.

            Charge on card; claim; accounting of claim; department accounting of claim…. k, you get the idea.

            While I VERY MUCH support fixing the accounting stuff, it got really rough on the enlisted guys, and probably the officers too.

            1. I was eternally grateful that I just had to submit my expenses to my company and they fought it out from there.

              Of course, there was also the three office buildings the USAF was renting for IT projects at Hanscom where for the rental payments over the 20 years they could have bought the buildings even if they had charged the construction costs on their Visa cards and saved money. Looked up the property owner at the addresses through public records and he was one of the cousins of the Kennedy clan….. Nothing to see here….. 😉

              1. We had guys who went on 8 month deployments, unaccompanied.

                That went through their cards.

                So an e-5 had to pay the charges until they got approval for the charge, and didn’t pay interest…..

              2. The Communications-Electronics Command leased a six story office building from GSA. When they were being threatened with being BRACCed, they had a meeting to get public support for staying in New Jersey. I noticed all the young guys in gray suits going to the microphones with their three-by-five cards and followed one up. When I got there I asked if it made sense to pay $23M to buy a building with a leaky roof. (The folks involved were trying to sell the idea of buying the building). When they asked me if I wanted to move to Rock Island, where the BRAC Commission had suggested, I told them no, I’d already been there.
                Maybe there’s another reason I never got promoted into management 😕.
                (For the record, they were moved to Aberdeen, MD after I transferred to Huntsville).

                1. Worked on an embassy in the middle east. State had signed a lease for an annual rent of ~$5 mil. They then proceeded to spend ~ $22mil(IIRC) remodeling the building…

      4. Like the thousands of scientists who say climate change is caused solely by humans and we need to use massive government control of the world economy to save the planet? (…is there a code for an “eyeroll” emoji as well as a “facepalm” one?)

      5. John Keegan the great military historian said he studied the experience of war both of those who fought it and those who endured it at home. He wanted to know what it was like in (e.g.,) East Belfast when the casualty lists from the Somme battles were coming out. I wondered too, I do remember Vietnam and my friend’s older brothers going off into the service, but it didn’t really impact me. 9/11 did. I know exactly how those neighborhoods felt when the casualty lists came out, I lived it. Much like Joel Salomon here, this is not some theoretical little game. This is real life.

        We were living abroad during 2001, but my mother was calling everyday with the updated death list — 29 members of my parish died, they held funerals solidly for weeks, many of the coffins were empty. She would tell me,: “you know her, you knew his brother, you went to school with her sister, she lived down the block from us, etc.,” My mum knew everyone and forgot nothing. I finally told her to stop. Because I simply couldn’t take it anymore. One way or the other with the six degrees of separation, I knew over 100 people who were murdered that day. I knew several well and one was a friend from when were young children.

        That’s just me, the wife — an FDNY fireman’s daughter, mind — knew another bunch just as large. Add too that my brothers in law in the NYPD who still have issues from being in the hole.

        These weren’t rich people or powerful people or famous people, they were just working people doing a job.

        So, for all you 9/11 deniers, get some help for your mental illness, you need it.

        1. BGE? My contact was nowhere near as close, but I knew a lot of the dead (and some survivors) at a remove, through my job.
          This nonsense is driving me nuts. I imagine how much more it hurts you.
          HUGS. Just hugs.

          1. This nonsense is driving me nuts

            And some of ‘the rest of us’ who don’t have as direct or ‘personal’ a connection to the ‘events of 9/11’ react to that ‘nonsense’ rather… viscerally, too.

            It’s, subjectively, much like watching somebody suddenly blare loud, crude, profane rap music at a funeral… when neither the deceased nor his family and friends had much of any connection to same. Or even more like those mobs of ‘protesters’ who (for a while) liked to show up at actual funerals for KIA soldiers in order to ‘make their point’ into the entire point of the occasion. (Thank you, Rolling Thunder and others, for making that a prohibitively difficult and/or costly endeavor, most times.)

            Even twenty-one years after the ‘events’ (at least for some of us) it’s very nearly as fresh as the week after or the day after. Some people do not seem to share that experience; well then, they don’t.

            So for those who don’t understand, it’s like a lot of things (best I can manage to explain it shortly) — it’s either that you understand, in which case no explanation is necessary, or that you do not understand and also will not understand, in which case no explanation is sufficient. Only for a few people, it seems, will it be possible to explain in some way clever or detailed or insightful or fact-filled ‘enough’ for them to ‘get it’ after, where they did not before.

            Time dictated I was (give or take only a little) a couple of decades too late to even be breathing for December 7, 1941. And likely it will dictate (absent some amazing lapse of actuarial art) I’ll not be breathing on Dec. 7, 2041, either. My secondhand ‘experience’ of that day comes from people who were far away from Hawaii (like my father on some Army Air Force base in the ‘lower 48’ = US, hearing the announcements over the loudspeakers, which I can probably quote if anyone’s ever interested) and its battle damage and casualties; the rest is even more indirect.

            But it’s not ‘abstract’ at all, for being so (relatively) indirect. Even at a remove of decades, one person to another, and thousands of miles at the time… as an American, it’s quite directly personal to me. It’s very nearly as personal to me as ‘That Day’ — September 11, 2001.

            So be aware, dissenters and arguers, deniers and faith-holders in not too likely ideas: in coming to a place like this, virtual as it is, on a day like this, you are walking on sacred ground, sanctified for both of those days for quite a while to come in the blood of literally thousands of my and our fellow-countrymen. Standing on such ground, respectfully, or else trespassing on it, otherwise. Treading, in the second case, on our shared and often also quite individual grief. Deliberately or carelessly.

            The first few pages of my first story in a particular setting very soon featured the viewpoint / narrator character understanding her very raw and recent grief in terms that included ‘That Day’ — 21 years ago this day, and far more on that (fictional) Sept. 11. And I had to wonder (since this is “gateway writing” and so one lets the character tell the story), as the writer / editor etc. but yet not really ‘creator’ of the thing: is it even plausible that we’ll still remember ‘That Day’ two-hundred-plus years from now, if / when we’re ‘out there’ among the stars and their planets? Or do I even have any business ‘letting’ her feature That Day, there, at all?

            The scarcely different reactions I have, on the deepest and most visceral level (but maybe not most ‘personal’ one, after all) to December 1941 and September 2001 — the second of which I watched ‘live on TV’ etc. — can be taken to argue that’s very plausible indeed; that even in 2277 (which has exactly the same calendar pages as 2001, it turns out), we might be still remembering ‘That Day’ in the same visceral way we do now, though living memory has left it far behind. (‘Never forget’ is a tall order indeed; but still…)

        2. More hugs. As I said we were out of the area but we knew it, and some of the people I volved.

          1. I’m sorry for the emoting, I’m not usually quite so emotional, but this is not an abstraction to me.. These were people I knew. Had I been in NY that day I would likely have been in WTC when the first plane hit because that’s where the train station was. My office was the other side of West Street facing WTC.

            I don’t want to give the conspiracy psychopaths that little frisson they’re looking for, but it’s hard.

            last story. We went to Mass on the Sunday following but didn’t go to our usual parish because my children’s school was having a mass at another parish. The priest, who was also school chaplain, gave a little speech before the dismissal, knowing full well we were there, about how the Americans got what we deserved. I walked out, my wife sat stunned. After the mass was over, my daughter’s Irish dance teacher, a fine braw Derry girl in exile, belted the priest right in the mouth. Which was a good thing, since I was being restrained by my wife and two nuns from killing the SOB. He so obviously gloated over the pain he caused, right up to getting it in the gob.

            Surprising no one, the lefty POS later got defrocked and convicted for diddling little boys.

            This was the only time we had a negative experience over this in the UK, our neighbors were all very kind.

            Enough on it now. We go on or we go under.

        3. :hugs:

          My only contact was someone who graduated in the same bootcamp group had a family eatery in one of the towers. His entire maternal line.

          His mom got sent out to pick up some stupid thing like “we ran out of butter.”

          They offered to let him out of the Navy.

          He counter-offered to not go to the funerals, as long as he was allowed to graduate to the fleet on time.

          ….they compromised. He went to the funerals, and graduated on time.

      6. I remember standing in front of a TV that had been wheeled out of a closet shortly after news broke that the first tower had been hit. There were a bunch of engineers and engineering IT folks and secretaries and what not, all of us gathered around. One of the civil engineers was dispassionately describing what was likely to happen, and what was happening, while it looked like he was trying not to cry. One of the civil designers who’d switched over into IT made a few observations aloud. And then the towers started to fall just like they’d discussed. Two days later one of the engineers was onsite as part of an urban search and rescue team.

      7. Well, in the case of RFK, I would like to meet the trillionaire who was behind his death,. just so I can shake his hand. Also to ask why he didn’t get Teddy.

        Seriously, though, I remember that the first conspiracy theories started coming out within a few days of the attacks. The ones I specifically saw were on the Newsmax discussion board at the time. All of them were from leftists, and more significantly, most of them were pushing porn on the side.

        Although there is probably more porn now than there was then, back then it was far more influential, because porn kings like Larry Flynt were Hollywood celebrities and were politically hard left. They had close ties to the Clinton administration.

        There is no doubt in my mind that the Clintons got on the phone with Flynt and told him to spread the rumor that 9/11 was an inside job.

    5. [video src="https://bustednuckles.net/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/911-pentagon-no-plane.mp4" /]
      De plane, where’s de plane?

      1. If you dig around a bit, there is a firm online that will deliver a bag of edible Gummi phallases to your favored recipient.

        “Eat a bag of dicks!” doesn’t have to be just a quip. Heh.

          1. ….wow, I’d managed to forget Dick’s in Spokane, too.

            Those are some GOOD burgers, and I think they still use tallow for the fries– at least, back…. starts counting

            …. a while ago.

    6. I did not find out about the 9/11 attack until I got home about 9 PM PT. When I saw the playback of the collapse of WTC 1 and WTC 2 my first thought was: “Damn! It actually worked.” We’d studied the design in Engineering school and I was skeptical that the building could collapse in such a way — into its own footprint. Especially from the top down. I was wrong.

      However, I studied mechanical not civil engineering and I knew aircraft pretty well but didn’t know a lot about steel structures. I had a lot of questions but finally came to accept that the combination of the plane’s vector and impact point combined with resultant fire really did bring the towers down.

      I do still wonder just how much the change in fireproofing material during construction affected the outcome.

      1. I’m inclined to say that it’s a damn good thing they did collapse into their own footprints.

        And that anyone who thinks “there wasn’t enough debris” (which.. I hard someone say somewhere one time) has utterly forgotten than buildings are primarily composed of empty space.

        1. Also that there were half a dozen underground levels packed full of busted concrete and steel. Only part of the debris showed above ground.

          If “there wasn’t enough debris” where did the buildings go? Did David Copperfield whisk them away by magic? Did UFOs fly off with them? Without anybody noticing?

          The stupid, it buuurrrns!

        2. “I’m inclined to say that it’s a damn good thing they did collapse into their own footprints.”

          Agreed though considerable debris did fall outside the perimeter during the collapse. Nevertheless, if they had toppled the loss of life would almost certainly have been greater. Probably much greater. One of the articles I read about Bin Laden claimed that toppling was what he hoped for. Dunno how true that is.

    7. Can’t say what I want to say, constrained by the fact that I am a guest in Sarah’s house here and by my marginally-proper rural Virginia upbringing.

      I’ll have to settle for “bless your heart.”

        1. Now granted, in these days, “conspiracy theorist” is just a synonym for “prescient,” so maybe I should shut up. But I don’t have a lot of patience for 9/11 truthers, mainly because Idiot Father-in-Law was one (he also refused to listen to my scientific explanation of how the moon landing worked and how the LEM didn’t NEED a giant engine to get it back into orbit off the moon because lower gravity).

          Despite everything, I still tend to ascribe governmental failure to incompetence first, evil second, in most cases. In a lot of ways, the incompetence IS the evil.

            1. The one conspiracy theory I’m willing to entertain is that US intelligence agencies spread 9/11 Thuther stories, so as to make adversaries believe the agencies capable of such plotting and actions.

                1. There were at least 50 other attempted attacks after 9/11. The military and military intelligence stopped them. (My source is trustworthy, but no longer with us). My source’s comment was, “We have to get them all. They only have to get it right once.”

                  1. Nod.

                    And there’s the aspect of “successful intelligence operations don’t become public information”.

                    IE We don’t hear about the successes but hear about the failures.

                    1. “Why don’t armed civilians stop mass shootings? Because if there’s an armed civilian on site, they don’t become mass shootings.”

                    2. “Because if there’s KNOWN TO BE an armed civilian on site,”

                      It’s why “Gun Free Zone” signs might as well be “All You Can Shoot Buffet” signs…..

                    3. We’re literally posted “please carry responsibly, if a threat appears remember your backdrop and police your brass later”.

                      It was bought as a gag gift some decades back….

                    4. Successful conspiracies don’t either….. but there aren’t as many of those as some people think.

                      Successful consensus is what we’ve been seeing out of the Fourth Branch for decades.

                  2. Similar story here.

                    Heck, my parents were repeatedly incorrectly identified as possible threats, being too close to the Canadian border….. (chasing cows, who do not respect borders)

                    I can get Really hot over “oh, they SAID that this was a plot, but WAS IT REALLY!?!?!”

                    Dude. Make up your mind.

                    Either they do what you demanded, or not.

                    Maybe quit assuming that defense lawyers tell the truth without checking evidence.

                    (Which….rather uniformly suggest defense lawyers on highly shared stories have Issues, which suspiciously overlap with cartel defense issues.)

                  3. As well as at least a few that got through. That USAF project I was working on at Gunter AFS was also in the building that got hit with “fake anthrax”. First thing we knew was when we looked out the window and saw MPs deploying to keep us all in until they tested what it was.

          1. The LEM’s aluminum walls being slightly thicker than a beer can helped, too.

            No shit, one item in the LEM’s emergency kit was a can opener in case the hatch jammed.

  5. “Because you know and I know they’re messing around. And we all know what inevitably happens.”

    I wish I could believe that it’s inevitable.

  6. Thanks for your post. I happen to think it was an ‘inside job.’ Ten, five years ago I would have argued vociferously with anyone that said that. No way would ‘Americans’ kill 3,000 of their own in some fake terrorist attack. But there are several details that don’t add up to a terrorist attack. Like the passports of the attackers miraculously showing up in the rubble. Also, the third building in the complex, a shorter one, that was known not to have been hit by a plane, collapsing in what looks like a ‘controlled demolition.’ Another thing that bothers me is that a plane load of Saudis were allowed to fly off from NYC airport the next day, not being questioned or detained. Also, when a jet plane crashes. Usually the superstructure, frail aluminum, burns and collapses. The engines, made of titanium, usually remain. However, there are no pics of videos of huge cylindrical jet engines lying in the rubble of the towers or the pentagon. Seems fishy. I know that to question our government about things like this is seen by some as ugly or un-American, but in my old age, I don’t give a damn ’cause I smell a rat, actually, lots of them. The ‘government’ is rotten and is now openly doing things that harm Americans, so whey wouldn’t they do that in the past? Of course they would.

    The other thing I wonder about is this: “… they’re messing around. And we all know what inevitably happens” I don’t know what inevitably will happen. But I ‘think’ what will eventually happens is that the government’s ‘messing around’ with us will continue and get worse until people refuse to be backed up any further. Then there will be sporadic ‘skirmishes.’ These skirmishes will be met with overwhelming force, the kind the U.S. military and some police forces can bring to bear. Then what?

    Anyway, not to be picky, but I just can’t leave “… we all know what inevitably happens…” sitting there. Sarah, what do you think will inevitably happen?

    1. All that “inside” crap has been debunked. Go look it up. You were sold half truths and ignorance.

      1. Thanks. I saw your other comment above as well. (Thanks for not calling me names.) Yeah, nice to know it’s all been debunked. And nice to know that there are folks like you out there who know exactly what happened. And nice to know there are still people who believe the government. I don’t. So, what exactly happened to that third building? Why did that collapse? No plane ran into that. And, those jet engines that are usually observed sitting intact in the fields of burning rubble after a jet plane crashes, ’cause they’re made of titanium, I believe, why were there no pics of any of them lying around.

        And since you seem to know a lot about this sort of thing, what about TWA Flight 800? I know it’s sort of off topic, but I’d like to hear what you think about that. I certainly don’t believe it was the fuel tanks exploding.

        1. Look, there’s not trusting the government and not trusting physics. At that point your mind dissolves into jelly.
          The third building was shaken by the massive collapses And fire. It’s not actually hard to understand.
          You can doubt the government as much as you can. I do believe they knew more than they admitted/acted on. BUT physics is still physics.

          1. Okay. I’m not going to argue that. But glad we both agree on trusting or not trusting the government. And another classic case of that is the JFK assassination and the ‘single bullet theory.’ Some folks said that went against physics. I don’t know. I wasn’t there. I was a freshman in high school in Philly. However, George Herbert Walker Bush was in Dallas that day. Truth. And he became CIA director after that, I believe. I think that when Kennedy got it he was affiliated with maybe another government org. By the way, I’ve had a few ‘Zellig’ like moments in my life. As a young man in the 70s, I worked summers at the Sun Shipbuilding and Dry Dock Company in Chester Pa. One day they divided the yard in half and you had to be ‘badged’ to get on the one side. They were building a strange ship, the Glomar Explorer. When we asked why people had to be cleared and badged to be on the side we never got a real answer. They did say that it was being built by Howard Hughes corporation. And when we asked what the ship was for, we were told it was for, ‘harvesting manganese nodules off the ocean floor.” That phrase was repeated by everyone and everyone believed it, including me. And when the ship was done, the tore down the fence and we… TRUTH… were allowed, as yard workers, to go aboard, at least I and a friend were. (supposedly they were hiring crew and we went on the ship to try and find some fellow there. I hoped to be an ‘oiler,’ a job that entailed ‘wiping grease up or some such, and odd jobs.) Well, never found the fella that was doing the hiring, but we got a good tour of the ship.

            We walked a catwalk high up in the structure and looked down and out at a scene that seemed to be the set of a James Bond movie. There was a derrick high up and lifting gear hanging down. Below, you could clearly see that the bottom of the ship, a large portion of it, was ‘hinged’ so that it could open downward. There was some kind of ‘lifting body’ that would be lowered down into the depths. Also, they had a big yellow caterpillar tractor sitting down there.

            Well, the Glomar Explorer said down the Delaware (they had to cant the derrick over to pass under the … I think it was, the Walt Whitman bridge, to get to sea. End of story. Never heard of or thought of the Glomar Explorer until the news hit that it was built expressly to lift up what remained of a Russian sub. Howard Hughes had built it for the CIA. I believe the sub it recovered, was a boomer and not an attack boat. Anyway, they said that the mission had been a failure and they had only been able to recover items that were of no strategic use to us. Then more years went by and someone releases a video they, the Navy make, of our sailors in the hull of the Explorer, giving the bodies of the Russian sailors they pulled up… military funerals and all the respect that went with that… this so that the Russians would be placated to a certain extent. The Glomar Explorer ended up in the Suisun Bay Reserve Fleet of rusting hulks in the San Francisco Bay area. I used to see it when I was still living in there.

            BTW, in closing. I finally got around to watching Snowden last night. I know that some would argue that we absolutely must have the NSA and the CIA hoovering up every text, post, phone call, fart or curse in America so that we can stay one step ahead of our ‘business allies and friend, China and of course, the Muslims in what’s left of the Middle East. I could wax about that but my fingers are tired now. Actually, I should save them for further work on my latest.

            Later, people.

            1. People make way more out of GHW Bush’s CIA stint than is actually there.

              Bush was a political appointment by Gerald Ford and probably knew about as much about the CIA when he left as when he came in; which is to say, none.

          2. If people questioned Jamie Gorelick’s motives as much as they propounded the ridiculous controlled demolition theory, we might actually get somewhere.

            Which is, of course, why the dark web is promoting the controlled demolition theory.

        2. Aircraft debris, as would be expected, was found all over the place.

          Some was squashed/pulverized by a falling gigantic building. Squashed and pulverized by weight and height converting to energy. You saw the footage of the dust clouds, right? If that happens to reinforced concrete, what happens to the light metals of aircraft? Even an engine in that holocaust probably would shred. Spinning turbines tend to self- shred when they fail. They did find some surprisingly big/intact chunks. One was the nose gear, if I recall correctly, wedged between two remaining buildings.

          No explosive signatures. None. HE makes distinctive sounds. Not one sound record captured an HE Shockwave.

          Sismographs did capture ground shock of the collapses, which did damage in the immediate area. Lots. Just the debris fall alone crushed plenty, and threw burning bits everywhere.

          Several hundred missing passengers. Were those lives all fake? The thousands of next of kin all in on it too?

          People -saw- the planes hit WTC. They all are lying?

          Nothing leaked? From the required thousands of conspirators? Nothing? The government can’t fart without leaks, and suddenly a perfect conspiracy total silence of thousands of distributed people?

          No way.

          Massive f-up is far more likely than flawless conspiracy involving thousands.

          Twenty one years and no conspirators changed heart, or wrote a tell- all? Out of thousands? No way.

          And you seriously weaken your argument by raising other unrelated outside the event. Non-sequitur.

            1. Well, again, ten years ago I defended Bush at every turn. But over time I see him less and less as a patriot. Yes, he’s done some nice things for our vets. But him and his father were at the helm of the beginnings of what seems to be ‘forever war.’ And ‘nation building (while our own falls apart.) And Bush seems never to have met an illegal alien he didn’t love. We had open borders under the Bush’s just like Clinton and Obama. No difference there. And since Obama’ reign, I’ve seen more pics than I care to of Bush yuk yukking it up with the Clintons and the Obamas. Him and Mike, or Michelle, are great pals. What does that tell you?

              We have thousands of American men and women with prosthetic limbs and PTSD as a result of all these forever wars. Iraq’s about to fall into the hands of Iran. Afghanistan is fast going back to what it was. I served in Vietnam, draftee infantryman, 11B. Had friends die there. What for? For years I believed we had good reasons to be there. I’m not so sure anymore. And the guys that came after us, they, some of them, must be wondering… ABOUT THIS GOVERNMENT.

              And now seems we send 20 03 30 billion to Ukraine every month, and make trade deals with China which favor them over Americans. Seems like every day there’s more evidence that this government is against the people.

              I’ll just try and leave it here.

              I love America and Americans. I don’t love politicians and their posses.

              1. I’m not fond of Bush Jr. He’s blabbed about being a “Christian Socialist” (Strange ice and hot snow.) BUT they still hated him. So they would have revealed anything that could hurt him.

                1. Like most, he forgot the objective is Victory. First you define it, setting the victory conditions. Example ” unconditional surrender of the enemy. We occupy and disarm them. When the war machine us dismantled and a caretaker government notionally in place, we leave.

                  Note how we achieved that in WW1, and kinda forgot “leave” in WW2 because we were already in WW2.5 or WW3 depending on POV.

                  “Nation building” is idiocy. Either we destroy, consume and assimilate an enemy, or we should wreck them and leave.

                  1. Mixed feelings on this.

                    After WW1, we helped defeat Germany and left but actions by our “Allies” set up the situation that lead to WW2.

                    After we won WW2, the US attempted to fix Germany and Japan in such a way that “We Wouldn’t Have To Do This Again”. Admittedly, we also realized the Trouble that the Soviet Union could cause in a Wrecked Germany so that was a factor in the fixing of Germany (at least the part held by the US, England & France).

                    I think we did a good job with Japan but not so good a job with Germany although it is doubtful that Germany would attempt to “make war” on the rest of Europe again.

                    So while, there is something to be said about “wrecking and leaving”, the question is “what trouble will wrecking & leaving cause the US in the future?”

                    Of course, the real problem with “Nation Building” is three-fold. First, is there enough in that nation to build an improved version of that nation. Secondly, can the US politically stay there long enough to build an improved version. Thirdly, do we know what we’re doing?

                    With Germany and Japan, I’d say that the answer to the three questions was yes.

                    With some of the other Nation Building situations, I’d say “no” is the answer to one or more of those questions.

                    1. on the Germany count, i hope you’re right

                      i really REALLY hope you’re right

                      recent events are kind of indicating the opposite.

                    2. Huh?

                      Can’t keep their military funding up and allow themselves to be dependent of Russian Oil?

                    3. The problem is that there IS no Afghanistan. I keep recalling a comment made by Sir Walter Scott – that Afghanistan was the Scottish Highlands, with turbans instead of kilts. Pacifying the place required pacifying each valley independently. A long, hard fight. Combine that with the U.S. Army’s xenophobia (which made them unwilling to fight with locally sourced auxiliaries), and you had a recipe for a long war with an unsatisfactory conclusion.

                    4. “Combine that with the U.S. Army’s xenophobia (which made them unwilling to fight with locally sourced auxiliaries)”

                      Given the number of “green on blue” incidents in the Middle East, it wasn’t xenophobia, but common sense.

                    5. Their raw bigotry against being murdered, much less their objection to allies forcibly raping little boys, just demonstrates their xenophobia.

                      …I wish that was parody, but I’ve heard folks roughly arguing that.

                    6. TBF locally sourced auxiliaries would be profoundly untrustworthy. The problem is American born and raised people, except Wyrdbard, apparently, don’t get other cultures or how different they are.

                    7. We gelded Germany and Japan. Both are now dying of old age and pacifism. In three generations they are extinct. There won’t be enough men to maintain them.

                      Both have imported the replacements. Japan become as a Korean colony/protectorate. Germany a Caliphate, unless Poland conquers it first.

                      Done. Stick a fork in them.

                    8. In three generations they are extinct.

                      I know I’ve asked for this repeatedly, and not gotten it– but how the hell do you figure “extinct” for Japan?

                      Massive die off, justifiable.

                      Extinct?

                      The entire point of having a huge population is so that even if you become 1/10th of your prior, you still are there.

              2. The governmental system and the people in the government are two different things. The Constitution and the bureaucratic state that has grown up around, and in many cases supplanted, that system are also different.

                Also the world of politics applies a rather unique kind of stress upon those who hold elected office. That sifts for a certain kind of person, and in many ways the position molds the person that accepts it. We get politicians that are good at electioneering, but the newcomers are unknown as to their capabilities at the job.

                Take the position of legislator for example. What does a legislator do? Most people will tell you they make laws. That is true to at least some extent. So what does a good newbie legislator that wants to represent his people do when he gets into office?

                He participates in the writing of new laws, more often than not. This, as much as anything, explains some part of the mess we are in today.

                Now take a bureaucrat. A bureaucracy is analogous to a governmental system, but it makes and enforces rules, not laws. You can still be put in jail for not following the rules. But they’re not laws. Nobody voted for them, not even the legislators who think their whole job is to make laws.

                A bureaucrat most often sits at a desk, processing paperwork. All of the forms need to be properly filled out. Doesn’t matter what the form is or what it forces the citizen to do, not to the bureaucrat, so long as the boxes are properly ticked and the lines filled in where applicable.

                The bureaucrat is not employed by you. You didn’t vote for him. You cannot fire him. He quite literally doesn’t care one whit about your existence as you can do nothing to harm or help him.

                What the bureaucrat wants is to have a bigger desk, and thus a bigger paycheck. Perhaps there is less drudgery up there. There will definitely be more power to go along with the paycheck. He can get the little desks to do the things he finds tedious.

                If the little desk cannot move up, which is often the case because the ones above him don’t want to lose their position, he has to make more desks under him. That will make him look smart, and maybe get him a bigger paycheck. The big desk above him likes the idea, because having more people under him means he can justify a bigger paycheck, too.

                Thus the bureaucracy is forever growing. Much like a bacterial culture with too much food, it will expand until it consumes all resources and begins to die.

                These are only broad strokes stereotypes, mind you. But they exist for good reason.

                Mistrust of politicians is only rational. They’re like toddlers in a room full of shiny knives and explosives, bound to get into trouble unless a significant portion of state they represent keeps a wary eye on them.

                Note the descriptor. Represent. They are not leaders. We are not followers. They are meant to represent us. All too many politicians forget that when they are away from their constituents in state capitals and Washington DC, especially.

                Got all that?

                Now then. The conspiracy theory has been debunked. Several times over. Who did the debunking? Was it all the government and only the government, or their pawns? Do you seriously think that all of the people, hundreds of thousands if not millions, are all pawns of the government or government operatives that have done the practical debunking of the conspiracy, again, many times over?

                Mistrust of the government is only common sense and rational. This does not imply torches and pitchforks, tar and feathers, or time to man the barricades, as some exhort us to do. It similarly does not follow that all things are suspect that can be reasonably and rationally deduced from evidentiary sources not under government control.

                To the more exact point, were there likely government officials that were aware of the hijackers? Yes, that is likely. Does that imply that ALL of “the government” to mean everyone from dogcatcher to POTUS knew about it? No. Does it even mean that everyone, every single person up the chain from the agent assigned to the case all the way up to POTUS knew all the details? Also no.

                The truth is likely within those extremes, if that likelihood is true. Does this make me trust the government less than I otherwise would? No, my trust for the government is already quite low, as previously explained. One need only point to further examples, of which there are MANY, of governmental screw ups that threatened or ended the lives of innocent citizens.

                And those are just the ones we know about. Some decades on, when things finally start getting declassified, we may know more.

                Conspiracy theories need to be looked at with doubt on all sides, as any good theory should. Only the ones that stand up to the slings and arrows of evidence, common sense, and logical deduction should be taken more seriously. The “inside job” theory fails to meet the standards of evidence. It fails the common sense test. And it fails the logical deduction test.

                It is therefore of no use to the rational citizen. It is of much use to the agents provocateurs that seek to sow dissent, be they domestic political actors or foreign powers.

                Distrust the government? Yes. Trust the conspiracy theory? No.

                1. Wow! What a smarty pants you are. I got this far, “Got all that?” and could not go on. But thanks for the lecture reiterating much of what I already know.

                  1. Pot/kettle much? But if you TL/DR, that’s fine. I do post long comments, and that’s not to everyone’s taste.

                    My knowledge is limited. Sometimes I get things wrong. People correct me on it. That’s normal.

                    Call me a smarty pants if you like, sir. I’ve been called worse, by better men than you. But we’ve already seen you pick and choose what evidence you want to engage with.

                    That says something about you. I’d consider re-reading what other people have said better than I could.

                    Or you could remain willfully ignorant. You are perfectly free to do so.

                    1. Sir,

                      What did you think you would achieve by posting here? Because what you’ve actually achieved is to get a lot of folks saying, “Okay, that guy’s a complete idiot and not worth listening to.” Which does not seem likely to be what you wanted to achieve.

                      Free clue: when arguing with folks on this site, make sure you can back up your claims with actual facts, not conjecture. And when people cite facts back at you, be willing to investigate them and see whether your theory was, perhaps, in contradiction to the actual facts. You know, like an actually rational person would do.

                      Anyone who chooses to remain willfully ignorant, because he doesn’t like the facts, is irrational, and foolish to boot. You might not like those adjectives, but they do, unfortunately, describe you accurately. My advice: stop being that kind of person, and start being the kind of person who looks at actual facts and follows where they lead, including abandoning a pet theory that, neat and tidy as it might be, is in opposition to the facts.

                      But since you have already said you won’t listen to the facts, I’m most likely wasting my time saying any more, so I’ll stop now.

          1. Okay, I got this far… “Several hundred missing passengers. Were those lives all fake? The thousands of next of kin all in on it too?” No, I don’t believe they were fakes.

            People -saw- the planes hit WTC. They all are lying?” Yes, I ‘watched’ it on TV with my young son that day. So, I ‘saw’ it. But still…

            You make good points. But like Sarah pointed out in response to my reply, perhaps the ‘government,’ whoever or whatever that is, ‘allowed it to happen.’ As you surely know there are people who to this day believe that happened with Pearl Harbor. But we won’t go into that.

            1. With the US government as the example, since when has “clumsy f-up” not been the more likely explanation versus “elegant near-perfect conspiracy of hundreds who keep the secret”.

              Not in my lifetime.

              1. Okay, yes. I’ll again echo Sarah’s comment that, ‘letting it happen’ is a possibility in all of this. I think I made this point earlier. There are some of us out here, conspiracy theorists, who see this as a possibility with all these shootings. Many of the shooters were on the radar screen of ‘the government’ but they always somehow manage to do the deed. Then come the calls to disarm the citizenry, the ones who follow all the rules, not the ones who break them.

                Anyway, guys, thanks for the exchange. I absolutely claim no patent on the truth. And I agree with those of you who say that we are in a period where many citizens disbelieve what their government tells them. Oh… and I can’t help but throw this in… another example of this.

                Covid 19. When I was a kid the big scare was polio. I had friends who’s siblings had polio and spent their lives laying on the rug, having their diapers changed and being fed by their sad parents. So, I got a polio ‘vaccine.’ Yes, one shot and done. Read my book, Carl Melcher Goes to Vietnam. In there, Carl thinks back to those days when he thought of the government as this God-like creature that loved and took care of everyone and made us safe. Now, he we are. Some of the people on this thread had a covid vaccine shot. (I didn’t; I had the covid and had natural immunity after that and never got a shot.) Some of the people on this thread have had two, three, four covid ‘vaccinations.’ Why do we need so many vaccinations? Makes no sense.

                You see where I’m going? I used to believe in government as a mostly benign entity staffed by patriotic Americans. I don’t believe we have that anymore.

            2. The Clintons absolutely allowed it to happen. Conspiracy or stupidity? who knows. But since they expected Al Gore to win the next election, it could have been their attempt to then set up a police state, like they’re trying to do now.

              1. Nah. Incompetence and disinterest. Didn’t fit their world view. Didn’t line their pockets. Didn’t get votes.

                Bit nation on ass.

                1. Exactly. I don’t believe the Clintons are (or maybe “were at the time”) anti-American, I believe that they were pro-Clinton to the (possibly psychopathic) exclusion of everything else. Whatever fed their ambition was by definition good, and anything else was either bad or (mostly) irrelevant.

                  Jamie Gorelick instituting the infamous Chinese Wall between the FBI and the CIA sharing information about terrorists did not either make the Clintons look good or look bad, so it was irrelevant. And then a few years later it had some blowback on a clear September day. Oh well, that was a good opportunity for Hillary to posture in the Senate and polish her presidential ambitions, so on balance it’s good. “Oh, what, people died? Eh, I’ll get re-elected Senator in five years regardless, so who cares?”

        3. The force of the two main towers collapsing put a lot of air-pressure on the surrounding buildings – it’s like pyroclastic flow from a volcano. I strongly suspect that the buildings around the two main towers were NOT designed to be resistant to the combination of shaking, pressure, heat, and other stresses.

          You don’t need a secret conspiracy when the forces of nature and physics are conspiring against you.

          Now, I do agree with a lot of people that IF parts of the federal .gov had been paying closer attention, and had taken Bin Laden et al at their word after the first attempt on the towers, we might well have escaped this. And what followed (Boston, London, Madrid).

          1. I stood in the “hole” in WTC after the first bombing listening to my FIL, a battalion chief in the FDNY, which is how I got down there, discuss with a structural engineer for Port Authority, he was a friend of my sister, she’s a PE, how, exactly, to bring to buildings down and what damage they would do to the surrounding buildings. The designers of WTC did well since they pancaked, like they were designed to do, otherwise, it might have collapsed the subways below Canal Street and breeched the retaining wall, which would have taken out all of Manhattan below Vesey Street.

        4. WTC 7 collapsed for the same reason WTC 1 and 2 collapsed: uncontrolled fires, which are invariably fatal to steel structures. In the latter cases the fires were started by the impacting planes, in the former the fires were started by the flaming debris crom the collapsing towers. It looked like a controlled demolition because controlled demolitions seek to replicate that failure mode by deliberately destroying structural members holding the building up against gravity.

          Since you’ve proven yourself ignorant of some VERY basic facts about the event, nobody care what you “know” or whom you trust.

          1. For instance I spent half the day in chat rooms because being in publishing (as a writer) I knew TONS of people in NYC.
            But even in the Austen fandom chat room, we had people we knew lived in NYC. One of my Austen fan friends at the time was rescued by Rescorla. She was shaken, and gave us a full account. which accorded with the official version, not crazy cake conspiracy.

            1. Obvious a crisis actor planted in your group years in advance to reinforce the cover story. 🙄

            2. A son of friends was an EMT. He was stuck on the wrong side of the river, begging the officials to let him through to join his unit, when he saw the tower come down on them. You just don’t forget stories like that.

              1. One of my not entirely stable writer friends hitchhiked to NYC when the towers came on to try to help possible rescues. He didn’t, but if you tell him all the 9/11 truff, he’ll punch you in the face. What is seen cannot be unseen. I mean, we’re all connected to this. It’s a big country, but not that big.

      2. I think what we’re seeing is a symptom of the systematic erosion of trust in the authority of the sources of information. We’re edging toward the old Soviet “discount all official sources; believe all rumors” pattern, which is dangerous.

        1. Nah, the “inside job” claims have been around since practically the moment the planes hit. Even many who automatically believe every line uttered by a Democratic administration are 9/11 Truthers. In fact, belief in it seems to be stronger on the left, which makes me wonder if at least some of the belief is an attempt to square the event with “Islam is a religion of peace!”

        2. For about a century now, Russia has pushed ” Don’t trust the US government”.

          Doest help when that same government does dishonest things. But that doesn’t make major events secret conspiracies.

          I don’t trust any government. Any. Also, I don’t trust excessively grandiose explanations that a) contravene easily checked fact, and 2) ignore reliable human nature and behavior.

          1. The only rational way to examine any event like 9-11 (or the Kennedy assassination, which irrelevancy was, I believe, noted earlier) is through the “sanity check” lens; if it doesn’t pass the smell test it’s probably rotten. And while the Dealy Plaza shooting seems to have required greater expertise than Oswald had ever demonstrated, it wasn’t a violation of physics or evidence. The idea that the Twin Towers were taken down by planned demolition isn’t supported by either. As noted, the unique structure combined with temperatures resulting from thousands of gallons of burning fuel made the collapse as documented almost inevitable. And as also noted there was zero evidence, visual, audible or seismic, that any such explosions occurred. IOW it may have been a vast competent conspiracy (by the government!?!), but it’s just a wee bit unlikely.

            1. A minimally qualified Marine is still a pretty good shot with a rifle.

              I used to shoot decent scores at Highpower Rifle. (200, 300, and 600 yards.)

              Slow moving target, inside 150 yards, from ambush, from a supported position, with a scoped rifle?

              Chip shot.

              The ten ring at 600 yards is a 12 inch circle. We hit that with iron sights (no scope), prone, unsupported, sling. The 600 yard X ring is 6″.

              Oswald was a lefty. Thus he could trigger with his left while cycling the bolt with his right. Watched a lefty demo this method with the much harder kicking Lee-Enfield, versus Oswald’s Caranco.

              Six seconds for three shots? Time starts on bang #1. That is 3 whole seconds to shuck the bolt, aim and squeeze. Twice.

              Well within feasibility, and I know multiple folks who can do that level of shooting.

              Any doubting, please review what the USMC considers “minimally qualified with a rifle”, then go witness a Highpower match. Be prepared to be astounded at what common competitive shooters can do with a 5.56mm.

              1. Another aspect of the JFK assassination is that the Best Sniper Nest available for the shooting was in the building that Oswald was in.

                That “grassy knoll” was part of a city park and anybody shooting JFK from there would be seen setting up and actually firing their rifles at JFK.

                Only idiots would plan on using the “grassy knoll” to kill JFK.

              2. As a Marine no longer on active duty I know what the Corps considers minimally qualified (or did in the ’60s, the current crop seems…reduced) – a score of 190 out of 250 on the standard rifle course. I’m not interested in rehashing a 60-year-ago assassination, but if you’re interested in non-government info check here:

                http://theshotsindealeyplaza.com/

                Assuming it’s all correct it’s very comprehensive. Also, there’s a book, “Mortal Error” by professional ballistician Bonar Menninger (available on Amazon), with a rather unique take on the episode. Enjoy! 🙂

            2. I’m not a demolitions expert, but don’t controlled demolitions happen almost instantaneously? I recall that there was quite a wait between the planes hitting the towers and the eventual collapse. That’s why so many firefighters died.

              1. Frequently, yes. But not always; depending on the structure and surroundings timed sequenced explosives may be used. That’s why demo experts get the Big Bucks; they know how to do it properly with minimum (ideally, no) collateral damage.

                  1. Yes, but…

                    I’ve read Gerald Posner’s Case Closed – Lee Harvey Oswald and the Assassination of JFK and one point that Mr. Posner made was that when we look at how Oswald had gotten to the “proper place and time” to make his shot it would have taken a Major Conspiracy to get him there.

                    Mr. Posner was talking about the “evil CIA” getting Oswald there but IMO it applies to the “evil KGB” getting Oswald there.

                    Now, if we’re talking about Evil Space Lizards, it might have worked. 😈

                    1. TBF it might look like a major conspiracy, but a lot of these things are like …. Gavrilo princepe. It worked to start WWI, but he wasn’t in the right place at the right time, it just “worked.”
                      I think Oswald was something like.

                    2. Nod, Gavrilo Princip was part of a plot to assassinate the Archduke but the “plan failed” and Gavrilo was “moping about the failure”.

                      Unfortunately, for the Archduke, by accident (not plan) he (and his wife) got into firing range of Gavrilo Princip.

                      Oswald got a job in Dallas thanks to connections with the Russian Refugee community (thanks to his Russian wife) long before JFK’s trip to Dallas.

                      Of course, the job was on the route that JFK would be taking again long before the trip was planned.

                      God, the Devil or Alien Space Bats might have arranged that, but the CIA, the KGB or the mob couldn’t have arranged that.

                      No, I find it impossible to believe that the KGB, the CIA or the mob arranged for Oswald to kill JFK.

                    3. I don’t subscribe to that particular conspiracy theory, but I would trust Posner about as far as I could throw him.

                      This was the guy who got overturned in the Macdonald v. Chicago decision, after all.

                      I actually saw him making a claim on his blog that the pro-2A Republicans were the religious right, and that the libertarians in the party supported gun control.

                      I’ve tried to imagine the kind of mental contortions necessary to believe something so ridiculous. All I can come up with is that Posner actually believes that gun ownership is a parasexual act by uncool dweebs, and that all the cool swingers like Gerald Posner support gun control because, party on dude!

                    1. Debatable.

                      He worked in a field where he couldn’t help but know plenty of mobsters by name and where they would know him by name.

                      But there’s no evidence that he was a member of the mob.

                      There is also evidence that he was mentally unstable and thus not somebody that the mob would want to use in an important role.

                      By the way, while in jail after shooting Oswald, he claimed that he could hear Jews being killed in the basement of the jail.

                      Nope, not a stable person.

    2. It was in no way an inside job in the way you’re describing. Allowing it, yeah, they did. Partly because you can’t pursue suspicions of poor brown people.

      I was alluding to the ending of “F*ck around and–”
      I have no idea what will happen. I do know something will, because what can’t go on won’t.

      1. Thank you. I don’t think I’ll be reading all of that, but thanks. To others who have explained how the high heat and the weight of the debris would destroy even titanium jet engines, I just wanted to say it’s a good thing the paper and glue passports of the culprits survived that crucible. Someone said it was a ‘miracle,’ and I guess it was.

        1. Oh worse than reading, it’s listening.

          But they guy has a very pleasant voice and you can do it while cleaning house; one of the few audio things that ‘works’ for me that way.

          That said… you keep saying “passports.”

          The most I can find is a single passport, best summary in this quote from the 9/11 commission, which also shows where the idea that several passports were recovered may have come from:
          April 23. Waleed al Shehri and Satam al Suqami, both Saudis, entered together at
          Orlando from Dubai, United Arab Emirates. Suqami was the only Saudi muscle hijacker
          admitted on business, and only for one month. Shehri was admitted as a tourist for a sixmonth stay. Both were admitted by the same primary immigration inspector.108 Suqami’s
          passport survived the attack: a passerby picked it up from the World Trade Center and
          handed to a New York Police Department detective shortly before the towers
          collapsed.109

          Since there’s video of the…results of the crash… going out the far side of the building, before a fire even started, and stuff including folks’ wallets have been recovered, and it’s one passport, not “their passports,” the barrier to belief is quite a bit lower.

          1. These people have been fed half lies and a soup of just enough truth. And it “makes sense” if you believe the government is a massive force that can do ANYTHING. Therefore….

            1. Slightly off topic, I stopped reading “conspiracy novels” because I started thinking that if the Conspiracy was That Powerful, the heroes wouldn’t have had a chance. 😆

              1. Many conspiracy novels require competence of such ubiquity and prevalence that it breaks credibility, and thus, immersion. Real humans don’t work like that.

                Which reminds me. I need to finish a chapter today.

              2. Conspiracies stop working when someone starts looking into them.

                Consensus across an organization is more effective. See Lois Lerner, Fast and Furious, Russiagate, etc.

  7. Team HarrisBiden and the Democrats are sending their surrogates out on the 9/11 Sunday news shows to denounce their political opponents as “threats to democracy”

    https://www.breitbart.com/clips/2022/09/11/donna-brazile-maga-movement-is-a-threat-to-democracy/

    They are doubling down daily on Biden’s Triumph of the Shrill speech, and the fact that they are doing so at the highest levels (a Harris interview that as pre-taped was released today that calls people who questions elections “election deniers” who are a fundamental threat to democracy”, even though J6 star chamber lead clown Adam Schiff was campaigning with a Democrat who declared a recent special election “stolen (Vincente Gonzalez in Texas).

    Anyone who thinks that the Democrats have any self-limitation on how far they will go in the pursuit of power hasn’t been paying attention.

    The Democratic Party leadership and their propaganda arms have no respect for their fellow Americans or those who lost their lives on 9/11. To Democrats, they are simply a pretext to demand “unity” which to Democrats is complete conformity to Democratic Party ideology and elimination of all who disagree. Indeed the Democratic Party as it is today is much more like those who attacked us on 9/11 than a political party of a free republic.

    1. Thus the panic searches of various Trump associates. They didn’t find what they needed at Mar-a-largo, and not enough idiots bought the BS, and they are now desperate to find something, anything, to get someone to roll and accuse.

      Because they -know- what happens if they lose. They thought they deferred, but they now get to recieve. And they are assuming that their opponents will be treating them as they tried to do. And that right there is a “guilty mind” tell.

      Sadly, the establishment GOP types are all too willing to let the culprits slide. On the same team, after all. But they, too, never expected anyone could provide a real alternative.

      And DeSantis is living proof that Trump isn’t the one-shot threat. It spread. It has widespread support. And -that- is why they panic.

      Get ready, folks. Politically speaking. Hell is coming to breakfast.

      Popcorn?

      1. Thus the panic searches of various Trump associates.

        It’ll be interesting to see how the timing, and searches vs being called to testify, etc, actually shake out; from the way that some things are being exaggerated on the same page as their evidence, I suspect some epic tail covering via making the story more insane is in effect.
        (Not like it’ll be the first time.)

        1. The timing will be lots of indictments with nothing behind them in the way of legitimate evidence in October as the Democrats’ “October surprise”. They will be targeted at Trump and Republicans running in key districts, states and statehouse elections, for the purpose of using lawfare to get them off the ballot and to slander them just before the election.

          Those that they can’t get off the ballot will have the tech oligarchs, financial oligarchs and establishment media use the show trial style indictments to cut them and their campaigns off from social media, from running traditional media ads, and from the finances needed to fund their campaigns in the critical days leading up to the election.

          Of course if that all fails, the Democrats will just use ballot fraud.

          After all, they have declared and apparently believed that their political opponents are “existential threats” to democracy. Why wouldn’t they do all that given their beliefs and statements.

          1. That is an impressive spin up from one mildly crazy guy made a claim, and one lawyer said she’s got three clients who either got a warrant served, or got called to testify.

            1. Actually its based on what they did to the Republican gubernatorial primary in Michigan already, the seizure of the phone of one the Republican House leadership members, and other actions by the DOJ and FBI, as well as statements by Democratic Party mouthpieces. I wasn’t actually even considering what Bannon said or the lawyer.

                1. But my prediction was not based on it. There was a question raised as to the Democrats game plan for the fall. I expressed what I thought it its. That game plan is something I have been warning of for a while, well before Bannon or the lawyer spoke out.

                  I stand by my track record of warnings and predictions, including those regarding how the cancel culture and insanity of higher ed wokeness would spread to the rest of society, when many claimed “they are a small fringe group” and their insanity can’t possible become society wide.

          2. They already do use ballot fraud. It is not clear to what extent, as a lot of folks have a lot invested in obscuring the matter, obviously. But of course the game is rigged.

            That’s no reason not to play.

            1. This video might help clarify. I’ve posted it before, and then watched it play out in multiple contests.

    2. We have a test before us. A Democrat politician has murdered a journalist. The victim’s DNA is all over the murderer.

      Will he serve as much time after trial (if any) as the January 6th demonstrators have served before trial?

      1. Depends. The crime happened in Clark County (Las Vegas). I’m not familiar with the criminal court system there, but there exists the possibility that there’s an honest judge and prosecutor there that might take the case.

        I will agree that the odds are not good, though.

        On the one hand, Telles is small potatoes. He’s no Alec Baldwin. No Clinton. On the other hand, he is a Democrat in a Democrat city, with all the corruption that that entails.

        Though Clark County leans Democrat, it’s not as bad as some East coast counties I could mention. I’m not going to call this one before we see what the judge and prosecutor bring to the case. He could do time for this- the vic was a reporter, another protected class. Neither vic or alleged perpetrator appear to be of a protected skin color.

        We shall see.

        1. IIRC, Telles had already been booted from office. And even before he was voted out, his own staff apparently didn’t like him (it’s believed that one of them leaked the video of him in a car being very close with one of his female staffers). It’s possible that he’s already on the outs with the local Dem establishment. So there might not be a desire to protect him from the consequences of his actions.

          Also, there’s a suspicion that since he’s already lost his position (and thus killing the reporter wouldn’t save that), the reporter might have uncovered something much worse

          1. I’m going nuts over this because the reporter also investigated the October 1 massacre and the FBI response to that, “can’t find a motive but we only questioned the (probably member of the peaceful religion of peace) girlfriend once before we let her go back to the Philipines” and ignored a bunch of other things”, still drives the locals crazy. And this reporter is the only one that might have found anything. But the asshat that killed him likely did so because he (the asshat) was that stupid. He’ll probably do the time because Sisoslob needs to distance himself far from his appointee with elections coming, and he’s a white male.

          2. Correction – Telles had lost the primary, but is still in office. I guess he’ll be unemployed early next year.

  8. A time for remembrance, reflection and individual reactions. Had an errand to run this morning and on the way home saw a group of firefighters in turn out gear with American flags accompanied by friends and family walking up the street from the firehouse… These people are an example – we remember and honor and will also not forget.

    A lot has gone ‘wrong’ since that day and some things have gone ‘right’ too. I believe in and will support the future where more is done ‘right’ and we, together defeat ‘wrong’.

  9. The intelligence agencies really didn’t have the system in place to reasonably share information– there were work-arounds, but they’d require, well, personal contacts and be easily frustrated by one guy either not doing his job, or not agreeing it was important. Or worse, you’d have to actually break the law to push something up the chain….

    It still won’t overcome people at choke-points deliberately working to hide information from the public, or folks who are rump-covering from saying “we had no idea!” when they mean “I ignored these reports, but it is somewhat better.

      1. Goodness, yes– and I bet some that were rather good at reading the tea leaves went “…you know, there really IS a pattern of folks that associate with these guys ending up dead, that doesn’t match with probability; I think I’ll look into a position that is really far away from DC…..”

          1. And getting worse as medical schools are now focused on pushing out social justice warriors rather than medical doctors.

      2. The FBI was more competent in burning women and children alive in Waco than actually following up to the multiple reports that the Saudi “pilots” were up to something sinister…

        My first thought immediately after the second plane hit was: “Somebody f-ed up, we just got hit by terrorists.” This was especially apparent since I had just read a thriller about terrorists crashing airliners into airports.

        And it was all down hill from there since the establishment decided not to waste a crisis and instead wasted trillions of dollars, messed up millions of lives and destroyed three or four countries.

        And we are still supposedly in the State of Emergency from 9/14/2001…

        1. And you’re right. The attack had been hypothesized in a ton of thrillers, which Bin Laden read, so…
          You know what worries me? All the people coming over the border who also read thrillers and want to kill Americans.

          1. For that matter, there was an episode of “Lone Gunmen” that aired several months before 9/11 that was about the US Government crashing an airliner into the WTC (using remotely controlled cockpit controls), and blaming it on terrorists.

            And, of course, it also wasn’t the first time that Islamic terrorists had specifically targeted the WTC.

            1. Well, even before then you had that Tom Clancy novel where a pilot slammed a 747 into the Capitol during the State of the Union address (Debt of Honor, I think?) but that was a Japanese ultranationalist terrorist instead of Islamist.

    1. GiganCat did that on the tile floor. He looked like a tabby-skin rug, as big as he was (36″ nose to tail tip. Yes DadRed and I measured him “between the pegs” as they say. MomRed was Not Amused.)

  10. More on topic:

    The US military frowns on overtly suicidal missions. But sometimes, that is the best crap-sandwich you cam make.

    Two F-16 pilots were Willing and Able to ram an airliner to stop its use as a cruise missile. Blessedly, the passengers were also Willing and Able, took care of business and defeated the terrorists. God bless them all. May we always remain worthy of them.

    https://www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/former-fighter-pilot-heather-penney-recalls-vice-president-cheneys-orders-9-11-stop-flight-93

    Volens et Potens
    Rest In Peace

  11. Somewhere in America is a boy or young man who is saying to himself, “When I’m President I won’t make Trump’s mistakes. I won’t let my enemies spread lies about me every day. I will know who they are and I will have them punished. I will not let my subordinates plot against me. I will demand loyalty and I will have it.”
    None of us want him in power. But if we aren’t lucky or careful, we will get him.

  12. One of my bosses worked hard to become division chief solely because he wanted the nice office with windows and the nice desk. I’m sure the bigger paycheck factored as well. But that appeared to be his motivation. He wasn’t incompetent and he wasn’t a jersey, but he wasn’t a great manager either.

  13. I grew up in Cop and fireman land. This is an incomplete list of cops and firemen, alumni of my old school, who died on 9/11. A similar number of non cops/firemen died too since where I grew up if you didn’t go “on the job” you went to work “on the street”. Wall Street, of course.

    RAY RAGUCCI ’70 FDNY
    STEPHEN HUCZKO ’75 PAPD
    CHUCK MARGIOTTA ’75 FDNY
    PATRICK MURPHY ’81 NYPD
    MARTY EGAN ’82 FDNY
    NEAL LEAVY ’85 FDNY
    NED THOMPSON ’86 NYPD
    BRIAN CANNIZZARO ’88 FDNY
    JEFF STARK ’89 FDNY
    MIKE CLARKE ’92 FDNY
    CHRIS MOZZILLO ’92 FDNY
    KEITH ROMA ’92 Fire Patrol

    I knew Paddy Murphy from childhood, he was a year behind me in grammar school. His da was chief of police. I knew Marty Egan too. I knew Ray Ragucci’s little brother well.

    Those of you who are so quick to wish for a divorce from us should remember who we actually are. Before you get all high and mighty, how many alumni from your old school were killed by terrorists while trying to rescue people? Don’t judge us by the rich people and other associated a—holes. You managed to get rid of them by sending them to us.

    For myself, I was in Hong Kong airport, flying home to London, where we lived at the time. I’m one of the very select number who flew that day after the towers came down. I suspect they were bringing SAS troopers home.

    1. Remember I don’t want a national divorce. I think most people in the big cities are captured by a combination of massive fraud and disinformation.
      I saw it “take” Denver.

      1. I don’t want a national divorce, either. I think most people are fairly decent, mostly being gas-lit by a very small group of people who have developed their “expert credibility” tools to make people think that because “They Are An Expert, They’re Always Right.”

        It’s those idiots I want to see kicked out of the house.
        Into the sea.
        Wrapped in chicken wire and draped with lead weights.
        It’s not that many people, proportionally speaking. Too many, I think, but not that many.

        (And, yes, I blame Clinton for 9/11-and Bush II was not the best President to handle what happened, but he was a damned better one that Al Bore-Gore would have been.)

          1. I have a long list of things that I blame Clinton for, not the least of which is-
            *Not stepping down when he got caught (and got caught lying, which is worse) playing with his Presidential sausage.
            *Proving that the Democratic party of old, the few that were not the best people in the world but had some standards, was deader than a doornail.
            *Letting too many nasty regimes get away with too much.
            *Having Hillary! be anywhere near the levels of national power.

            I’ve got a laundry list.

            1. Which time? Ol Slick Willy had been busted lying back when he was in Arkansas, too.

              I’m sure the Blue Party machine would have come up with some “suitable” replacement if he wasn’t available. And, going by what we know of the Blue Party track record, would have got up to some sort of shenanigans or other.

              I blame the Democratic Party of Old for many things, too. Carter was weak sauce, but there was the legacy of LBJ and Wilson hanging around, too. The Democrats were the pro-slavery party. The Democrats were the ones to break the sturdy foundation of family, faith, and dignity that black families held for generations. The Democrats have not been a friend to this nation for a long, long time.

              That there were good folks who nevertheless found themselves in the Democratic Party over the years back then, I will grant. Of course there were. That past is a different world to the one we live in today.

              Now the best I can say of them is that they are deluded and ill informed, credulous or trapped and living in quiet desperation. The ones that do not know any better because they’ve never had the opportunity to, I feel for them.

              Today, though. I share that laundry list of grievances. The litany of insults to individual liberty and the Constitution itself would be longer than I think the word count on a comment would allow…

                1. TXRed is definitely my superior in US history. But I might take a stab at it soonish. I wish I could promise, but schedule is subject to wild changes of late.

                  A Declaration of Grievances would necessarily have to be limited in scope, elsewise we’d be lost in the weeds of antecedents to the Rise of Marxism leading up to the modern Democratic Party. And that’s a book worthy project that someone could probably make a mint on… and probably has, somewhere along the line.

            2. Indeed I was a Democrat (oh the Shame) with libertarian/ fiscal restraint tendencies. And then Slick Willy violated his oath of office and essentially perjured himself to avoid his own inability to keep it in his pants (a VERY bad thing for a person in power, What if Ms Lewinsky had been a Russian or Israeli honey trap?). He didn’t have the guts to do as much as Nixon did and resign, On top of that his VP Al Gore who should have read him the riot act and then written him off decided to lie and support him. At that point it was clear that even the “Moderate” Democrats were untrustworthy and insane. Bush the Younger wasn’t great, but I can’t imagine what Charlie Foxtrot it would have been with a President Al Gore…

              1. The difference between most Democrats and the E!Democrats (establishment Democrats) is what you feel. I think most people that claim to be Democrats believe what the party’s…ideology is not the term, but it’s close enough…is. They justify what the E!Democrats do on the basis of “they need power to make all the changes they need to protect people.”

              2. The Reader read ‘Earth in the Balance’. He could imagine perfectly well what President Gore would have been like. Apparently, so did his home state. If he had won Tennessee in 2000 the entire kerfuffle over Florida wouldn’t have mattered.

          2. Yep. It’s amazing how many of those Democratic Party run cities have districts that get over 100% turnout and the votes are at rates well over 90% for the Democrat.

          3. We will not surrender one square inch of free American soil, nor one free American to Slavery.

            No retreat, no surrender. Victory and Freedom.

      2. Fraud, lies, and an inability to do anything about it. A completely honest election that was known to be so beforehand might have some very interesting results.

        1. Heh. I think a scrupulously honest series of elections in California would be quite illuminating. For the East coast, many of them don’t really need the fraud that much. They’ve got the cities, they’ve got the numbers. But Cali?

          Even with the stranglehold that the California Dems have on the polls, polling places, and all, some elections down there are closer than you might expect.

          I can see the possibility of California turning red in the future. Maybe a long game, more likely in the lives of the younger generation than mine. But I can at least see the possibility now.

            1. It might still be. Turnout in the last mayoral election was 23%. Apparently most of the sheep don’t bother to vote.

              1. Nope. Look at who was running. When there’s an alternative people turn out. Do remember that NYC has a history of voting Republican mayors in from time to time when the stink becomes to high. Unlike some other cities, which may be why NYC isn’t as bad as, say, Chicago, or Philly, or Boston, or …..

                the news out of NYC today about crime is bad but shows too much recency bias looking back pre- DiBolshevik. By Chicago standards, never mind Detroit or Memphis, NY is still a safe city,

    2. Had a look, found the rest

      Frank Spinelli 71
      John Casazza 81
      Scott McGovern 83
      Steven Hagis 87
      Shawn Bowman 90
      Billy Miccuilli 89
      Peter Mulligan 91

      They all worked at Cantor Fitzgerald

      Carl DiFranco 91
      Joseph Ianelli 91
      Stephen Laurie 79
      Thomas Celtic 76, his brother Marty won the FDNY Medal of Valor, posthumous in 1977. these guys worked at Marsh & McLellan the insurance firm.

      Joseph Visciano 97 worked at Keefe Bruyette
      Denis Hogan 80 worked for Verizon. I knew him well, he was a distant cousin of mine. Didn’t like him very much, nor did he like me much, but death cures all that.

      Vincent Laiela 88. Worked for AON. I knew his wife well, her parents were very good friends of my parents. We were at their wedding. She was pregnant with their first child who grew up never meeting his father. Number two son went to HS with him showing how small the world is.

      They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
      Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
      At the going down of the sun and in the morning
      We will remember them.

      Sorry, I tend to be very peevish about this.

  14. I didn’t follow the news right after 9-11, so I wasn’t aware that al-Qaeda was an early suspect. I thought it was home-grown domestic terrorists. But this was only 6 years after Timothy McVeigh blew up the Federal building in Oklahoma City, so you might pardon the suspicion.
    When I started paying more attention, I did see that the smoke hadn’t cleared before the domestic America-haters were telling us how this was our own fault and we had this coming because of our various misdeeds in the Middle East. No it wasn’t and no we didn’t, (Although if you’re a devout Muslim and your only idea of the US comes from Hollywood exports, I can understand why you might think America is nothing but a cesspool of booze, drugs, and street gangs, but that’s another rant.)

  15. I just thought of a strange weird parallel, for me, between the Challenger explosion and 9/11…I found out about both of them the exact same way. By seeing a woman run by me crying.

    I was in college in 1986 and leaving class, I saw a couple of coeds run by me crying hysterically. I didn’t think much about it until I got back to the dorm and there were 40+ people–at late morning no less–crammed around the TV in the lounge watching the coverage.

    Likewise on 9/11 I was at work in South Carolina, at a bank doing IT work, and one of the loan processor ladies ran by me sobbing as I came back upstairs from the little canteen store in the basement with my breakfast. I got back to my desk and my next-cube neighbor had his radio up loud with coverage. I tried checking news sites on the Internet and the only one I could find that worked was Free Republic, which is a conservative news/comment site (that’s still running btw) that the net nanny filter had blocked a few months ago when I got caught browsing it at work. For some reason it was working on 9/11 and provided my only real-time coverage of the event other than that radio for hours. I didn’t see the video until they sent us home early that afternoon–we were in downtown Columbia, the state capital, and it basically completely evacuated).

    1. I was in a college class, close enough to KSC to hear the explosion. We ran outside and saw that smoke “Y” in the sky.

  16. I would be too in your place. I’m still angry. But it does soothe me to remember the Rhode Island church on 9/11/11 and rhe pastor’s “Ritual of Penance,” wherein we were supposed to meditate on how we might have contributed to 9/11. He made the mistake of asking for input from the congregation. I gave him some. Quite a bit, in fact. Two people thanked me after the service.
    I very much doubt he enjoyed it.
    (To be fair, he turned out to be a decent preacher when he wasn’t cutting and pasting from his favorite authors)

  17. I’ve long suspected that the correct response to 11 Sep 01 was to obliterate Kabul and Kandahar with nuclear weapons.

    My heart sank watching Bush speak that evening. He was talking about “bringing them to justice” – the sort of talk I associate with police work. Not a war.

    1. Sending troops to war without a clear and unambiguous victory condition is wrong. Morally. Strategically. Pretty much every way I can think of, wrong.

      The concept of justice must always be tempered with mercy. Yeah, I get that. Really I do. But it also has to consider the facts on the ground. Sometimes you have to kill murderers. It is not possible to spend the time, money, and lives necessary to find a way to rehabilitate them.

      The military exist to kill people and break things. Our soldiers are very, very good at that when they are allowed to do their jobs.

      That “bring them to justice” bit was indeed very disappointing.

      1. *Sending troops to war without a clear and unambiguous victory condition is wrong. *

        We had a clear victory condition: Destroy Al Qaeda in Afghanistan and overthrow the Taliban government that had given them sanctuary.

        But then we DID that, and then the usual bleeding hearts invoked the Pottery Barn Rule and so we had to stick around until we had “fixed” the country. And then lather rinse repeat in Iraq.

        Something I read recently — maybe a link from a Matt Taibbi substack? — said that we didn’t fight a twenty-year war in Afghanistan, we fought a one-year war twenty times. Each change of command brought in the new general with his own agenda and bright ideas about how to Turn Things Around and so forth, so none of our efforts had any continuity. Personally, I would have cheered if the RoEs had been, “we conquered you fair and square, now anyone who raises a weapon to an American gets terminated with extreme prejudice until the survivors learn their lesson and knock it off”. And nothing else.

        1. We fought the same war 1865-1900

          Buy out and assimilate the tribes you can. Wipe out the fighting spirit of the tribes you can’t assimilate.

          Harsh. Grim. But it did work. And the threat of tribal extinction is something our more recent opponents actually fear and respect.

          Not willing to do the needful? Don’t make war.

          Note, the other side may not go along with your “civilized” choices. In fact, your squeamishness will often precipitate more bloodshed, as it us seen as cowardly and weak by those you would spare.

          Ouch.

        2. I’m with Balzacq. We should have busted Afghanistan back to the 7th century and walked away. I want every person around an opponent who says “Lets Screw with America” to have utter loss of bowel control in fear when they hear something that foolish. Here the old Latin phrase attributed to Cicero “Oderint dum Metuant” applies. Our enemies need to know that we will not sit and wring our hands if someone hurts us let alone come whining like some kicked cur apologizing for what we did to make you do this to us. Choices have consequences. Bad choices need to have really bad consequences.

          1. Given my druthers, I’d have us bust Afghanistan and then start a cheap ferry service over to try to civilize ’em.

            With discounts on guns.

            1. Do not remember where I read or heard the following. I cannot take credit for authorship …

              “Response to 9/11 should have been an nuclear explosion on an empty space of sand, leaving behind a sheath of glass. Along with a broadcast to the world of ‘Happens again, Meca is next, no further warning’.”

            2. I would prefer that but sadly Foxfier that is a task of 2-4 generations looking at the examples of Japan and Germany after WW2. Japan is probably closer to Afghanistan/islamic cultures as it was/(is) a Face/Shame culture. The extreme xenophobia of WWII Japan mixed with the bushido culture overlay really made things tough. And it isn’t clear to me if we somehow “broke” Japan. But even that doesn’t cover things. The taqiyaa concept in Islam and Islamic cultures (and even similar ideas in the proto Islamic cultures like pre 700AD Persia) make lying to outsiders de riguer. The current US leadership no longer has the patience for 50+ year efforts (nor does the populace) , and the “leadership” does not have the conviction that freedom is a better ways to live than tribal behaviors. Without those two things any attempt seems doomed to fail although perhaps in not so epic a fashion as the Turnip in Chief did it.

      2. Sending troops to war without a clear and unambiguous victory condition is wrong.

        No.

        It may be a bad idea, in the sense of “may” that means “is almost certainly,” but NO.

        Especially when you find ‘bring them to justice’ to not meet that standard.

        1. Lacking a clear and defined victory condition means you have no idea how to win, nor any intention to win.

          It is not only wrong, it is obscene.

          War without victory has a name:

          Defeat.

          1. Lacking a clear and defined victory condition means you have no idea how to win, nor any intention to win.

            Bullshit.

            Very PRETTY bullshit, but still bullshit.

            War is no different than any other fight– there are many reasons that you can enter a fight. The subset that require a “clear and defined victory condition” is vanishingly small.

            About the best you can do is “until the other guy quits”– but, if one recognizes that, then one must recognize that the war in Iraq and Afghanistan was over very quickly, and it was the rebuilding that the Dems once again managed to spike.

            1. If you get into a fight, without the clear intent to defeat your opponent, he will defeat you.

              You may have to figure out how as you go along, but if it isn’t something like ” opponent is down and incapacitated” you will lose. You might pull off, “I disengage and run”, but what if opponent is faster? You lose. “Escape” can be your “win” but if you are just expecting to be let go? Not happening.

              If you fail to defeat an enemy, he will defeat you just through persistence and focus.

              War without victory is defeat. War without a clear concept of victory is stupid defeat. You cannot achieve that which you cannot even articulate, unless you luck out and get in a fight with a bigger fool.

              We have been very foolish, thus the string of defeats.

              Read Sun Tzu’s “The art of war”? Musahi’s “Book of five rings”? Much more eloquent at making my point.

              Lack of Victory is Defeat. Lack of a clearly defined victory is defeat. Because you cannot achieve a goal without setting a goal. The goal can be simple, but if you don’t have it, the other sise will likely apply their own.

              1. If you get into a fight, without the clear intent to defeat your opponent, he will defeat you.

                That is instantly disproven by a single incident where someone accidentally ended a fight.

                For a very famous and recent example- that kid in Kenosha clearly did not have a plan to defeat anyone, and he was not defeated.
                “Try not to die” is definitely not a clear and defined victory condition!

      3. The concept of justice must always be tempered with mercy.

        The flip side of that is that you first have to have an established concept and assumption of justice before you can have any mercy.

        A lot of people try to snip out the justice and go 100% mercy. Failing to understand that they destroy mercy in the process.

    2. Our military was not established to ‘bring our enemies to justice’ and that is not their mission. Our military is for bringing justice to our enemies. To stomp them flat and leave them sore and sorry they ever fucked with us. And to repeat the lesson as many times as required. Anything less is a betrayal of the American people and our soldiers.
      ———————————
      Why do so many idiots believe the same shitheads that caused our problems can, or will, solve them?

    3. Even at the time, I had similar thoughts to the first point… when I heard the President’s plane was heading to a ‘Cold War-era secure facility’ or whatever, I wondered if that was so he could use the most secure sort of… Presidential command network. As in, tell the nice men in the deep holes to turn keys in pairs. And respond without risking the life of even one American, unless we had anyone foolish enough to be in, say, Kabul 2001. (No diplomats, for example.)

      Later, I decided it was a good idea that he (and we) didn’t: the vast majority of the people (and especially the ~50% female fraction) of (e.g.) Kabul then were as much victims of their Taliban ‘government’ as our Americans were, and many of them more so than the ‘average’ one of us. And later years have not done much at all to change my mind on that.

      However, I can imagine (under an Administration that actually likes and respects this country and acts properly in its interests, unlike China Joe and His Wanky Ho) something like this:

      “What can you say about the apparent tactical nuclear explosions that destroyed two major bases in Afghanistan? Was the United States involved, or not?”

      “We will neither confirm nor deny that the possible nuclear-armed cruise missile attack over two military bases in Taliban-occupied Afghanistan was American in origin. However, we do know that the previous Taliban government approved and assisted in the slaughter of 3000 or so Americans in 2001, and we know that the current government is a continuation of that one, and we know that the destroyed bases both hosted a considerable amount of American arms and hardware from our disastrous 2022 rout there. Our adversaries should know that killing thousands of Americans on American soil is a dire provocation and an act of war, and that we continue to reserve all options available to us to respond at any time and place in any manner of our choosing, until and unless we judge our response to be satisfactory and complete.

      “The 1941 provocation by the Empire of Japan is a closed book; the Empire no longer exists and today’s Japan is a respected and valued ally. The 2001 provocation by the Taliban regime in Kabul and its terrorist allies is still considered an active one, and our response is ongoing.”

  18. I’ll add two other points.

    Most of the coverage is New York-centric. The Pentagon is a different story…they buttoned up and fought that building like a warship. Damaged, on fire…but still full of fight. Open for business the next day, there being a war on.
    NONE of the coverage really captures the chaos. We knew we had hostiles inside the wire. We did NOT know how many, nor their objectives, nor their targeting. In particular, we had no clue whether or not there would be follow-up attacks. Things didn’t really settle out for about three days.

    1. Yep. We were sent home at lunch and didn’t get called back for most of a week. When we were, it took hours to get in because of the searches the MPs did on each and every car. Not to mention wondering if someone would, graduate to nukes. And not seeing any planes in the sky for days.

      But there was also the comfort of going to the Red Cross to donate blood and findi g the lu e was already around the block…

      1. I was commuting from Tacoma to Redmond at the time, and driving home past Sea-Tac Airport on a clear day I could usually see six or seven planes in the landing pattern which ran parallel to the freeway. Not seeing those planes for many days was perhaps the most uncanny part of the post-9/11 experience for me.

  19. Bit late to the discussion, but I will not forget. I was on seminary in LA and sleeping on my friend’s floor. I was the only soldier in my group and felt very alone because though my friends were angry, it wasn’t personal, the way to was to me.

    This year, I did the 9/11 memorial stairclimb and made sure we sang something appropriate at my chapel service. We did the Battle Hymn of the Republic yesterday and I look forward to the day when he sounds the trumpet that will never call retreat.

    1. You might appreciate the artistry Father put into his sermon this week.

      We DIDN’T do anything specifically American… they were all strong hymns, though.

      And he got up there (3/4 of the time, the deacon does the sermon) and started up with ‘you all know what today is’….and went into Jimmy Carter making this Sunday grandparent’s day.

      and he just wove 9/11 into who we are— they tried to kill us, they did hurt us, we are still here and strong and will BY GOD do the right thing.

  20. I grew up under Reagan. I remember Ford somewhat, mostly the fall of Saigon. I remember Carter as well. But Reagan, and the love he showed for the country, is what I grew up with. The Bushes seemed OK, but not great. The Democrats seem to be getting progressively worse with wanting to tear down the USA. It was nice having Trump for awhile with his clear love of America.

      1. :harumph: You want unhinged?

        Mark Shea– who use to be a rather decent apologist, the contrast between what he writes now and what he wrote then is stark– thinks we’re more at risk from MAGA white supremacists than from Islam.

        …. how he deals with how many of those “white supremacists” are notably brown, I don’t know.

        https://markpshea.com/2022/09/12/as-we-commemorate-9-11-this-week/

        Note, back in ’95, Shea WAS conservative. He even thought that overturning Roe V Wade would be a good thing!

      2. We probably should not be surprised. The US ultimately killed their favorite pet country and sent it scattering into pieces and sliding off into obscurity as a third world craphole (it was always one, but not in their eyes) by simply existing and being an unmovable object.. For heaven’s sake Bernie took his bride there for a honeymoon, what did they do go see Lenin’s tomb? The still don’t forgive the US for ruining their eschatological perfection and showing that their world view made/makes as much sense as those of the Millerites or Heavens Gate.

        1. I place this here to commemorate how they poisoned a whole generation—even me, though like the peasant turned into a newt, I got better:

          “Maybe I’ll be there to shake your hand, maybe I’ll be there to share the land that they’ll be giving away when we all live together…”

  21. We remember. And we don’t forget. We especially don’t forget our countrymen who betrayed us by looking the other way.

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