I’m working

I’ll have Grant for you hopefully before midnight, but right now I’m working on Guardian, because I need to send the first fifth or so to Larry, before he thinks I’m a total bum.  The autoimmune delayed things REALLY badly.

Better now, though of course my hair is thin and limp and I gained ten lbs so far on the prednisone.  (Yes, most of it is probably water.  Still looks bloody awful.)

The eczema is sort of still there, but just as a rash and a look of a burn, not open sores (a couple, but they’re scabbed) and only one portion (my thighs) itches.  It’s not like someone poured itch powder all over my body. So, I’m mostly okay.  Okay enough to be able to write, at least.

If you must have a Sarah post, have two.  The third should come out today.  And I really want people to see these posts, because what we’re seeing is an actual tragedy unfolding. No, I don’t expect anyone who MATTERS will read me, but who knows?  When you throw a pebble in a pond, the ripples can shock you.  And I very much wish someone with power will read this.  Because this is a tragedy.  A real one.

As in, two in this case groups of people, thinking they’re doing what they must, which will lead to a genocidal result for one of them, and a very bad one for western civ too.  (If we haven’t yet got over WWI you have no idea what exterminating the Islamic world will do to us.  The first time we got serious and fought back the result was the crusades, which led to an entrenching of religious intolerance, which led to the inquisition, which led to the reformation (okay, the reformation started sort of before, but you know what I mean.  Same mentality and reaction.  Some of these aren’t cause and effect, but they are ripples from the same war against Islam.  Back then, of course, we didn’t have the power to eradicate it. But I’m not sure it would have been any better if we could have.  There’s a good chance it would have been much, much worse ) which led to the 100 year war, and which possibly, by reaction led to the heresy known as communism.  I’d prefer we don’t go for a ride on the carousel again.)

How We’re Losing the War to Save The Islamic World Part I: Saving the West

142 responses to “I’m working

  1. Yea! Our esteemed hostess is feeling a bit better and is up to writing. That is a move in the right direction. O happy! happy! joy! joy!

    • And while we’re at it, as I wrote but two days ago:

      There is writing, paragraphs of it, in fact it even has links. It has a title and it makes sense. It is where a post by Sarah A. Hoyt should be. People are responding to said piece of writing. This IS a post.

  2. Work away, reading the second essay now. Read the first one earlier this week.

  3. Take your time on follow along post. Guardian wants doing, Grant can wait until Monday, we’ll vignette tomorrow and amuse ourselves today. Really, no worries, we’re just gonna sit here and quietly contemplate whether that wall over htere really is load-bearing and the optimum ways to turbocharge that fountain over there …

    • First, what is in that fountain? Water? Jet-A?

      • Beer. If there’s going to be an engineering problem, there should be beer.

        • The beer is in the walk in coolers over there — the one on the left is appropriately set for bottom brewed beer and the one on the right is for the top brewed beer.

          Why waste good beer filling a fountain and letting it go flat and room temperature?

        • Forget thee not the Dragon luxuriating at the bottom or the fountain, and DISTURB HIM NOT.

      • I believe that fountain is the vodka fount. Maybe the light rum — has that been turned on for summer yet?

        I suppose it could be gin, but if so it is a little close to the vermouth fountain.

      • For a bunch of readers and writers of Fantasy and sci fi our imagination is lacking. Obviously you dip your cup in and it comes out what you wanted. How? Its magic (or technology discuss that with Messrs Clarke and Niven in the corner over there). Ms Poppins dips hers and it comes out rum punch. Currently for me its coming out a very nice grade of Kona coffee (with cream and sugar). Later it might be Imperial stout. I could argue for Fayalin, but Lensman are not required to be teetotalers (thank Klono’s Gadolinium Guts).

  4. “I need to send the first fifth or so to Larry, before he thinks I’m a total bum.”

    Because that could totally happen, right? ~:D

    • Larry is Mormon/Latter Day Saints. I doubt he’d have any use for a fifth.

      • Oh, please, he has plenty of use for a fifth. He just won’t drink it, so don’t waste the good stuff!

        True story, my luthier’s wife had to explain her complaint about her husband to me once. Seems he was cooking a varnish recipe on the stove. Which was fine and all, but it contained vodka, and she was hosting the Ladies’ Relief Society that day, and Mr. The Luthier is a Bishop! She had to explain her husband’s retirement hobby to the ladies. Couldn’t he have just waited until after the ladies left?

        • To him, the idea of drinking varnish was probably so laughable that it didn’t occur to him that someone would see vodka and have an attack of the vapors.

          • Quite possibly true. He’s very Odd. (It was his wife who insisted he pick up a full time hobby before retiring, I understand it was more or less a “you may not retire if you don’t” sort of thing.)

            • My Dad already had a hobby by his first retirement (home remodeling… of their house). After about six months of his unrestrained practice, my Mom told him he was finding another job… 😉

  5. Glad you’re recovering. Take care of yourself!

  6. We can digest something like the bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima as a way to save even more lives. And sure, we can tell ourselves that we are saving lives by turning all Islamic countries into blue glass. It might even work for a while. But what happens when some other group of countries gets a wild hair and decides to make itself a nuisance? As with committing murder (I hear) the trigger for the second one is much softer.

    From: How We’re Losing the War to Save The Islamic World Part 1: Saving the West

    While the personal decision to commit a murder does cause a break within a person, I am not sure the same can be said of a nation who has engaged in a major war. True, it was the generation that had fought WWI that openly headed towards WWII. But the generation of the men and women who served in WWII seemed pretty determined not to let the world get in such a mess again. Of course their determination not to openly engage on a large scale has created its own problems.

    • You make a good point. I’m sure there are qualities that incline a nation to genocide.

      I’m not sure Mrs. Hoyt’s example would do it. But I agree we’re headed there.

      • There’s “genocide”, and then there’s genocide. The word is the same, but a differentiation should be made between “genocide a la Nazi Germany who pretty much made up reasons to commit said genocide on the Jews, Gypsies, and Slavs, and then tried to justify it with fantasies”, and then there is “genocide as in what the United States did to the Japanese Imperial militarist class”.

        The one is a crime. The other? An unfortunate necessity–And, let us not quibble at what we did, which was to nearly completely extirpate that element of Japanese culture that was imperialist and militarist. Same-same with Nazi Germany, but we had the help of the Soviets and others, there.

        The distinctions need to be made, because in some cases, there’s no other way to effectively eliminate a malignant culture than to utterly destroy its basis and wipe it out. For examples, please see the Plains Indians and others, whose way of life as stone-age nomadic warriors could not coexist with a developed Western United States. Elimination of the buffalo, and the fencing in of the plains pretty much put paid to that warrior culture, and the only remnants we have of those cultures are today resident on reservations, and are not raiding the local farmsteads any more. Which was the goal, and while it could have perhaps been accomplished in a different manner, well… You got what you got, thanks to the piss-poor relations between the US government and the Indians, going back to the Deerfield Massacre and beyond. Canada had better luck, but then again, the Canadian tribes didn’t have quite the history of raiding the settlers up there that they did down in the US. For that, thank the British and the French who stirred up troubles between the various tribes, the settlers, and the US government.

        Don’t mistake what I’m saying as that I think genocide is A-OK, or a peachy-keen thing. It’s a huge mess, but sometimes, there ain’t no other choice besides doing the necessary.

        And, it is effective: Do note that the one long-term conversion of Islamic fanaticism to pacifism took place when the Mongols decided they’d had quite enough of the Old Man of the Mountain’s bullshit, and chose to wipe out Alamut in response to his behavior and threats. The Ismailis haven’t been the same, since–Most of them are quite peaceful Sufi mystics, now.

        Sometimes you just don’t have a choice. I rather suspect that had disease not done it for them, the Spanish would have been forced to do unto the Aztec manually what disease did, especially the fully-committed-to-human-sacrifice priestly class. And, when you get down to it, genocide is basically what the British did to the Thuggee, as well. Some people simply don’t respond to rational inter-cultural communication, and I think you can make a case for saying that we and the Soviets were forced to commit genocide on the German militarist class, as well.

        I can’t prove it, but I’m pretty damn sure that the effect of losing all those men, and precisely which men they were in the gene pool, has probably done a lot to calm down the Mark Twain-noted German propensity to go out and conquer the world every few generations. You will note that the period of time between 1945-present is the longest period of more-or-less peace in that part of the world for a long damn time. Centuries, even, depending on how you want to count it.

        And, notably, the Germans don’t seem to be showing any real interest in changing that, either–Quite the opposite, in fact.

        • Another thing lumped under genocide is the policy of Nazi Germany of abducting children — chiefly from Poland — for adoption in Germany on grounds of their desirable racial traits.

          I can easily imagine cultures where that might be the only sane response: take all the children and let the adults die out.

          • To a degree, I think that’s actually what we should have probably done with the Nazis… And, I include everyone who was in a position to know precisely what the hell the regime was up to in that category. There were a lot of Germans who knew that the regime was doing evil in their name, but all those cheaply-shipped packages of food and luxury items coming back from the conquered territories were just too tempting.

            You go digging into the details of the economic looting that was going on during the occupation, and the attitude the German public had towards it, and it’s more than just appalling–Kids were starving across Europe, so that the Nazi regime could keep the civilian population of German nice and quiescent. Rationing didn’t really hit home, in terms of nutrition and other issues, for the ethnic Germans until very late in the war, and afterwards.

            As one of those Germans commented to me, later on, “We all knew… You couldn’t miss what was going on, when a Gefreiter in Holland was able to send back enough food and other items to feed a family of four quite well…”.

            So, yeah… The supposed de-Nazification missed a lot of the people who probably should have been fed back into the extermination camp system they built for the Jews and other Untermenschen.

            Of course, the next question is: What do you do when that “salvaged generation” of kiddies you took away from their evil parents turns to the same paths…? Do you then say “Well, we tried…”, and finish the job, or do you try for more rehabilitation?

          • That’s more or less the idea behind “kill all the men, and any boys taller than a wagon’s axle” that I’ve heard on rare occasions. That still leaves the women around, of course. But in a situation like that, the surviving women are probably bound for arranged “marriage” and concubinage.

            Any males who were old enough to be likely to seek revenge get killed outright.

        • Side note: the interesting thing about the definition of genocide is that you have to plan to do it, which means that largely wiping out the Japanese warrior class doesn’t count, since it was a side effect of the combination of bushido culture and industrial war. What the Germans did on the Eastern Front still counts, though, because they planned to starve out the Slave while fighting the war.

          • Blargh. Slavs. Stupid autocorrect.

          • The planning part of the definition is going by the wayside in common usage, thanks in no small part to the SJW activists misusing and misdefining the term.

            And, we did plan to wipe out the Japanese militarist class. I could show you cold-blooded think-pieces that were published in mainstream magazines during the late Thirties that would really make you wonder just how much “fault” there was on the Japanese side. Based on some of the reading I’ve done in contemporary sources, Japan would have had every right to take us at our word–Because we were writing and reading blithely about how we were going to have to do something to “slap down the Japanese Empire”, and making it very open.

            Hell, there was one piece I remember reading that was published about ’36, or so, discussing the post-war rehabilitation of Japan, and it essentially laid out exactly what MacArthur wound up doing. I think the author even wound up as an adviser to him, post-war. If I remember right, some sort of Methodist missionary or child of such?

            In any event, there was planning, even if it didn’t rise to the level of planning that the Germans did against the Jews, Slavs, and others.

            • Have you read Lizzie Collingham’s A Taste of War? It’s about the food situations faced by the various powers in WWII, and while she tends to wear her politics too much on her sleeve, it provides some very interesting background, particularly for the Japanese. They didn’t have a lot of good options, but they chose close to the worst one.
              Also, I would be curious to see how many of those think pieces said “and we’re going to need to kill off this segment of Japanese society ” as opposed to “the Japanese are expanding, and will not stop until someone stops them.”

              • During the war, of course, there were “kill ’em all types,” but even there, you have to factor in those who discussed it as a real possible necessity — as witness Saipan, where virtually every Japanese soldier and civilian died before we could take it.

              • No, the stuff I remember from Grandmother’s stock of reading material of that era was pretty clearly targeted at the Japanese militarists. She came out of a milieu where there were a bunch of Methodist and other sorts of missionaries who’d worked in the Orient, mostly China, and they were sounding the alarm about Japan and its works in China and Korea as far back as the 1920s.

                Some of that stuff was couched in very polite and guarded terminology, but they were quite emphatic about what it was going to take to “fix” Japan. You have to remember, Japan back in the 1920s and 1930s wasn’t too far off from what North Korea is today–You had the odd Western interloper who saw too much, they had a tendency to just disappear. Somewhere in all that stuff, wherever it is now, there was a packet of newspaper clippings and letters about a missionary family that just flat-out vanished like something out of the Mary Celeste, and they’ve never been accounted for that I know of–Mother, father, four kids and a bunch of Chinese servants that worked in the household. Supposition was that it was a kidnapping, by the Japanese Kuomintang, and even post-war investigation in the archives only turned up very vague references.

                Remind you of anything? Like, say, North Korea kidnapping people off of beaches in Japan?

                • Yes, and that’s very interesting. Do you know where I could get my mitts on some of that material?
                  Also, side note for future reference: The Japanese secret police were the Kempeitai.

                  • Crap… I knew I should have checked my memory. Kuomintang is the Chinese Nationalist party, and I meant Kempeitai. It’s been a long time since I was reading in that sphere, so I’ll just have to plead the confusion of old age.

                    As to the source stuff I’m talking about? The majority of it was either hauled out to the landfill when we had to move her estate up here, or got water-damaged when the roof of the shed it was stored in failed about 15 years ago. At the time, I don’t think anyone in the family really appreciated what all that material represented, to be honest. I always figured that if I needed to find it again, a good university library would have it. If I knew then what I know now about “deaccessioning” and “pulping”, well… I’d like to think I’d have done a better job of making sure that stuff got preserved. The old house she lived in before the fire was an amazing treasure-trove of stuff like that–She just didn’t throw anything at all away, and with my Grandfather being the town druggist with the closest thing to a newstand in town, well… She had a lot. I spent my childhood going through that stuff, because it was fascinating to read the pre-WWII stuff with all the ads for the Pan-Am China Clipper, and the WWII materials were equally spell-binding. It’s one thing to read history books, but another entire to go through the history of the war as the people of the time saw it in real time.

                    I imagine that you could probably go digging through the archives at a good library that had all the popular news magazines of the era on hand, and then find a specialist collection of all the house publications for the various missionary groups–Those had a bunch of really amazing stuff in them, describing Chinese culture and the country, and there was an awful lot of political stuff in it, as well.

                    I don’t think the modern person really appreciates how influential all those groups were, when you get down to what made FDR do stuff like embargo scrap iron exports and oil shipments. He was responding to pressure from the missionary community, through their lobbyists and the leadership of their churches here in the US. Not many remember how hard those people were fighting for China’s interests, back in those days.

        • “genocide a la Nazi Germany who pretty much made up reasons to commit said genocide on the Jews, Gypsies, and Slavs, and then tried to justify it with fantasies”

          One more reason to condemn Progressivism. The Germans had only consciously adopted the race science that had been used to justify the lesser status of certain ethnic groups in the United States at the end of the nineteenth and beginning of the twentieth centuries.

        • Not sure your qualification is useful. Genocide: Jews in Germany, Kulaks in Ukraine etc. must not be watered down.

          Perhaps “decimation?” would serve.

  7. As I’ve scant interest in commenting at PJM …

    How We’re Losing the War to Save The Islamic World: Part II When Cultures Clash
    [SNIP]
    That kind of little misunderstanding is common with tourists. It can be tragic too if you – say – misunderstand the signs for “available for sale” as it pertains to a woman in a culture where men are aggressive and possessive.
    [END EXCERPT]

    Back when I was in college a school I was attending ran into a version of this. This nice Quaker college had an outreach program which brought, courtesy of the Society of Friends, a number of English-fluent Black Africans to attend and receive the benefits of Western Civilization.

    It took several rather appalling incidents for the school to realize that these young men understood somewhat differently the tendency of American coeds to caress, dress provocatively and dance in ways seemingly intended to advertise their sexual … dynamism. The unfortunate communications confusions usually ended up involving local police and school disciplinary action.

    Apparently nobody had thought it necessary to advise these foreign students that young American women often imitate cats in heat as a means of amusement.

  8. Read Part I earlier this week (still need to read Part II), and what stuck with me (intentionally or not) was a presumption that we need to save the poor islamic darlings because they lack agency, that they’re incapable of saving themselves.

    Personally, I’m so d*mned tired of the presumption that we (the US and/or the West) have to spend all of our efforts saving the rest of the world from themselves. What about our own poor and needy citizens (& I’m not talking about 3rd world peasants who saunter over the border) — why can’t we focus on our own people?

    Quite simply, I’m of the opinion that the muslim world simply doesn’t understand mercy or moderation; decades of us being merciful to these &*€%#!×$ has resulted in them seeing us as cowards and weak. Maybe there are good muslins and maybe there aren’t, but there is no reason for us to sacrifice Western civilization in an attempt to be nice to them.

    • Not intentional. If you read the current blog, neither of us is getting the OTHER. We need to save them by stopping giving them horrible signals.
      Your conclusion is what I said with the difference that I THINK sacrificing them will destroy western civ. They’re being exposed to us more and more every year. In a generation we’ll have them. IF we can avoid bombing the hell out of them first. I’d prefer that.

      • scott2harrison

        I disagree. “Western Civilization” has already gone a fair way toward the tribal, where in a dispute it doesn’t matter who is in the right, it matters who is in your tribe. This is one of the defining characterizations of Arab culture. My problem is that we will have to fix ourselves before we can be an example of civilization to others. What we are showing them right now is that we are a bunch of warring tribes just like they are.

        • Look, go look at pictures of Arab countries in the seventies. When they’re scared they imitate us/westernize/are good as gold. The problem is we went namby pamby on them.

          • Just read.ized that a good analogy for this clash btw muslim and Western world is Bill Bixby holding onto his temper with his finger nails, telling the yahoos, “You wouldn’t like me when I’m angry …”

            Of course the yahoos, being ever so brilliant, take his warning as an example of cowardice, and keep poking. Question is how close is Western civ to hulking out?

            • Some people – and societies – you can’t just show them the stick. You have to beat them with it occasionally to show you’re willing to use it. And even then, there are the ones who simply don’t care…

          • scott2harrison

            Agreed, however we are so far gone, that imitating us will not make them good as gold. It will make them as good as the Progressives as it appears that they are winning (at least from the outside).

            • Paul (Drak Bibliophile) Howard

              Well, they won’t “imitate the Progressives” because they aren’t afraid of the Progressives. 😦

          • If there is any value to be found in multicultural principles, it is that when we address other cultures we must do so in a manner which they can comprehend — we must speak in their culture’s vernacular. Instead we do exactly the opposite, addressing them in the context of our culture and expecting them to do the translation. A guilt culture addressing a shame culture must act in ways consistent with the shame culture’s standards for there to be understanding.

            As the (so-called) more enlightened culture it is the duty of the West to speak clearly in Islam’s language.

            The fact that the most vocal advocates of multiculturalism fail to recognize so obvious a point strongly suggests they either don’t actually believe in multiculturalism, don’t understand the principles of multiculturalism, or both. There is a strong resemblance to the arguments for AGW, suggesting that our “elites” don’t understand much of anything and are desperately concealing their lack of comprehension under a heavy cloak of STFU.

          • It’s really shocking to see pictures of mini-skirts and read the caption as Tehran or Kabul. (No really, Gilligan, we missed [SKIPPER gesturing] from here to here.)

            • Yeah… About that?

              Ever consider that what got the rural Islamists so riled up and “reformist” was precisely that thin veneer of fake cargo-cult Westernism that was grafted onto those countries by their leaders?

              My take on that whole thing is that what happened in Afghanistan, Iran, and other places was in large part because they initially imitated the forms, the surfaces of things, without considering the real reasons their cultures are FUBAR, which is the boring stuff like rule of law, tolerance, spirit of inquiry, and all that other crap that’s really the foundation of success for the West. They imitated, discovered that mere imitation didn’t cut the cheese, or fix anything, and then the reaction to the failure of the cargo-cult approach was to double down on traditionalism.

              Nothing essential really changed, with all that wonderful “Westernization” you see in the old photographs. That crap was all the Islamic cultural equivalent of the various South Pacific tribes building fake airfields and control towers in the hopes that the cargo would come back. They didn’t change a damn thing, down where it mattered, and when they discovered that the mere imitation and aping of Western styles and culture didn’t fix the problems they had, well… We get what we get.

              The Arab/Islamic mind is well aware of the issues they have, and that’s what drives a lot of this stuff. They know they’re countries have a low average IQ, they know they have massive problems with inbreeding, but they can’t make the steps to fix those fundamental root issues, because that would mean that they’d have to abandon or change too much too fast for them to adapt. The only way forward, to really fundamentally fix the issues they have? The whole bloody edifice is going to have to come crashing down, first, and then be recast in a different mold, one where you don’t marry your damn cousins going back thirty generations.

              Don’t get your hopes up for seeing the Arabs or the Africans making it off this planet by themselves, or without being treated essentially as pets. My guess is that only select elements of those populations are ever going to manage to adapt to the high-social-trust realities of space habitats or space travel. Can you imagine an exclusively Arab-run habitat? An African one? Good lord, they can’t even keep the electricity on in South Africa, these days–What do you think that kind of culture is going to do in an environment like a space habitat, where you could kill everyone in it by not doing your responsibilities willingly and competently? Do not allow things like the current build-up of cities like Doha fool you–The vast majority of the functionality of those cities is based on hired help, and without there being a basis for hiring that help…? LOL; the odds of those cultures ever getting off this rock are slim and none. Unless they reform, and I suspect that if they manage to do that, they won’t be anything we’d recognize as traditional Arab/Islamic or African of today.

              Trust me on this–Having seen the general Arab cultural mentality at work when it comes to military equipment maintenance, I’m not seeing a lot of potential there for adaptation to an artificial environment. Culturally, you’re going to have to see a hell of a lot of change before that ever becomes a realistic prospect.

              You see all those assholes in American towns, who don’t put their shopping carts back? That’s the kind of crap that’s going to have to go bye-bye in our culture, before we start living in artificial environments in space. If I had to guess, I would say that the nature and magnitude of the change is going to be on the scale of our transition from nomadic hunter-gatherers to agriculture, because the paradigm shift is that big. It’s gonna be rough for us, less rough for folks like the Japanese and damn near impossible for the Arab/Islamic and African cultures as they exist today.

              • Farging spell-check–Couple of instances in the above where the software chose to change “their” to “they’re” without me noticing, along with some others… Can’t even blame WordPress, for that…

              • “My guess is that only select elements of those populations are ever going to manage to adapt to the high-social-trust realities of space habitats or space travel. Can you imagine an exclusively Arab-run habitat? An African one? Good lord, they can’t even keep the electricity on in South Africa, these days–What do you think that kind of culture is going to do in an environment like a space habitat, where you could kill everyone in it by not doing your responsibilities willingly and competently?”

                THIS.

                It’s actually an element of a story I’m writing right now. Short version: it’s not doing any favors to a parasitic culture to give them a whole planet where everybody belongs to that culture and believes the Right Things. Without superior cultures to leech off, the settlement will crash and burn.

                Any paralles to the widening Blue State/Red State split are…ahem…left as an exercise for the reader.

                • I’m not sure I’d want to really frame that whole issue as one of “superiority”, really… Loaded term, that.

                  Better adapted? More likely to adapt to the probable stringent requirements of off-planet habitats and colony worlds, when we reach them? Assuming we can adapt ourselves, of course, to those same issues, and I’m not sure we can. Because, that’s what it is–Adaptation to conditions. The Arab/Islamic and African cultures are well-adapted to their environment and tech levels, it’s just that those things are pretty much dead-and-gone here in the 21st Century. Except where the atavists bring them back, which they seem hell-bent on doing in places like the Tribal Trust Territories in Pakistan and Zimbabwe.

                  If I had to try to extrapolate, I’d say that the Japanese are likely the best prospects for successful adaptation to space-based arcology environments, and our own society/cultural/biological matrix is going to have to undergo severe stress and adaptation to conditions we’re likely to find in space habitats and on colony worlds we’re attempting to adapt to our needs through terraforming.

                  Imagine if you will the requirements we’re gonna have to have, in terms of those folks I mention who seem to have problems putting their shopping carts back–Transpose that insouciance to a deep space habitat, where failure to properly care for “public resources” like air, and life support equipment…? You may really see a society that has a need and a drive to impose the death penalty on those who leave carts out and unsecured. Summary executions for scofflaws–Think about that, for a second, and then ask how well we’re gonna adapt. It will not be easy, and I would say that there’s a huge swathe of our own societies that ain’t gonna make the leap.

                  As well–The conformist rule-bound socially oriented types that thrive and survive in deep space habitats probably won’t be the ones who do well on the frontier-type colony worlds, either. My bet is that, long-term, we’re going to separate into two distinct cultural and probably biological types–The men and women of the void, and the men and women of the planets. Both are going to be necessary, because my projection is that we’re never going to find a way to replicate the self-sustaining nature of the planetary environment, and we’re going to keep needing to “top off” the biological matrix of the deep space habitats with things like cheaply produced food and the like–As well, face it: We’re creatures of the planets, and are going to have to take the conditions we’re adapted to with us, until and unless we completely transcend our current biology.

                  So, you want a recognizably human culture in space? It’s probably not going to look much like ours, and it sure as hell isn’t going to look like anything currently extant in the Arab/Islamic world or Africa. It will probably look a lot like Japan–Homogenous, conformist, and a little weird around the edges, as the humans within it try to cope with the pressures of conformity and constant risk. Long-term cultural effects are gonna be… Interesting.

                  • Oh, there are Americans would could deal with such… but they’re not who many might expect. Those who can deal with life in an RV or a mobile home in northern climes when cut off for a while. Yeah, not the same folks, but similar experiences. So perhaps the greatest competition the Asian folks would have would be from…. Canadians?

                  • Good point: if we define “superior” as “well adapted to space exploration and colonization,” then none of us knows for sure what those cultures will look like.

                    I claim, though, that we can think of characteristics those cultures will not have. And while some types of conformity may be survival traits in space, “explodes in murderous rage at any questioning of an eighth-century religious book” is pretty high on my list of what you don’t want in space.

                    Or on this earth, for that matter.

                    • No matter what happens, the transition to space is going to be another one of those “eye of the needle” moments in human history. What comes out of the other side from it…? We may not recognize it, at all.

                      Baseline “normal” humans may tag along for the ride, as reservoirs of genetic diversity and potential “wild stock” to seed on new worlds with unknown environmental factors, but I think that at least the first few major space colonies are going to lead to some rather large wholesale changes in humanity. At least, the long-term successful ones, and I don’t think too many of those are going to spring forth from either Arab/Islamic culture or Africa.

                      Almost inevitably, the cultures that succeed up there are going to have to be cohesive, cooperative, and very anally retentive detail freaks, almost to the point of what we might identify as autism. Things we’d let pass as inconsequential are going to have to be things they approach with near-religious fervor, like making sure that there are backups for everything in life support at all times, that spaces are secure, and I’d be completely unsurprised if they don’t copy the adaptation that marine mammals have, where they can put one side of the brain to sleep at a time, and maintain a usable level of alertness. More than likely, they’re going to be people we might like, but we’re going to be intolerably slack-assed and casual to their eyes.

                      It will be interesting, to see what happens. I kinda wish I’d live long enough to have that perspective, but that’s damn unlikely.

          • You make a good point. Soviet agri proposals our friend on this one.

          • I don’t think those pictures are such great evidence. They depict a very small educated elite whose values were never shared by the vast majority of their compatriots.

            You could just as well point to pictures from a Gay Pride parade and claim they prove that 21st century Americans were all degenerate, amoral libertines.

        • I suspect one reason the Progressives are going ballistic over Charles Murray is his pointing out the increased tribalization, especially in his latest book, Coming Apart: The State of White America, 1960–2010.

          “Murray describes several differences he sees forming between and causing two emerging classes—the New Upper Class and the New Lower class—among which are differences in or lack thereof in regards to religiosity, work ethic, industriousness, family, etc. Murray goes on to provide evidence that religiosity, work ethic, industriousness, family, etc., have either remained strong or have weakened minimally in the New Upper Class, whereas these same attributes have either weakened substantially or have become almost nonexistent in the New Lower Class. Much of his argument is centered on a notion of self-selective sorting that began in the 1960s and 1970s, when he argues that cognitive ability became the essential predictor of professional and financial success, and people overwhelmingly began marrying others in the same cognitive stratum and living in areas surrounded largely by others in that same stratum, leading to not only an exacerbation of existing economic divides, but an unprecedented sociocultural divide that had not existed before in America.”
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coming_Apart_(book)

          One example is the way in which those in authority provide unpaid internships (often critical for access to optimum career tracks) to friends and friends of friends. It takes money to take those internships, money not available for those taking a summer job to help support the family or earn enough for next year’s schooling.

      • “They’re being exposed to us more and more every year. In a generation we’ll have them.”

        I don’t think so. Have you noticed how many Islamic terrorists in the West were born in the countries they’re attacking? Children of immmigrants pose as big a problem, if not bigger, than the original immigrants. (Granted the numbers are skewed in Europe right now by the current invasion which has deposited an order of magnitude more immigrants on many countries.)

        Islam inoculates against exposure.

        • I have not perpetrated an in depth study of the issue, but I have a vague impression that the problem of unassimilated immigrants is essentially one of second-generation immigrants — those with little direct experience of “the old country” but plenty of resentments against the new one. If we were seeing a great deal of retrograde assimilation among third- fourth- and further generations I would concede your point.

          Of course, the loss of confidence in Western Civilization exacerbates the assimilation problem, don’t it? Kind of like dating a person who spends all their time complaining about how awful their life, their family, their prospects are.

          • If we’re still alive when there are a great number of third- and fourth- generation immigrants we can revisit the issue.

          • “plenty of resentments against the new one.”

            Which they are being systematically encouraged in by the Left. And it has nothing to do with immigration; the Left has managed to comprehensively unassimilate the black community since the 1960s.

            • “… the Left Democrat Party has managed to comprehensively unassimilate the black community since the 1960s 1860s.”

              Fixed it for you.

    • What about our own poor and needy citizens

      Most of the prescriptions we’ve written for our own are at best placebos and more frequently come with extremely harmful side effects.

      What part of “go a quarter million in debt for a degree in Identity Studies” makes sense? How do Minimum Wage laws compensate denying work opportunities to the unskilled young? In what world is it useful to not only pay people Welfare for being useless but to impose financial penalties on those who make an effort to improve themselves?

      • Not disputing anything you’ve written, I’m just tired of the presumption that the US is required to face outwards and save others before saving our own.

        • Well the last time we did that we wound up immigrating to a few countries extremely illegally.

        • I share your exhaustion; it is merely that consideration of the effects of helping our own suggest they are better off without our “help.”

      • What part of “go a quarter million in debt for a degree in Identity Studies” makes sense? How do Minimum Wage laws compensate denying work opportunities to the unskilled young? In what world is it useful to not only pay people Welfare for being useless but to impose financial penalties on those who make an effort to improve themselves?

        I figure the answer to those questions was why the media and the left needed so desperately to destroy Bill Cosby’s decades long work in fighting Sharpton’s message. They needed to undermine the confidence of ‘the blacks who’ve left the metaphorical plantation’ – and to warn those who are of influence to be careful and toe the line.

  9. Looking forward to Grant, but I can wait for paying work. I anxious to buy Guardian too.

    As far as beating the Muslim threat, I think it was Whittle who pointed out that is trivial once the inner threat is taken care of. Pershing showed the way. There are ‘magic’ things we could say and do that would make true believers in literal Islam believe that we are sending them to Hell when we kill them. All we have to do is be willing to use their own religious beliefs against them. But if they were deathly afraid of green and tab the Left would insist we paint our military vehicles safety orange. I doubt that solution would scar our culture that much, especially since it would be against unlawful combatants. All we need is the moral courage to put pig parts in our JDAMs.

    • Tan, not Tab. Also I vaguely recall the CIA using some details of the Koran during enhanced interrogation against the Muslim terrorists but can’t find any references. So we are part of the way there already. Something about it being acceptable to cooperate with the enemy under certain conditions I think.

    • That is part of what I think we should do. Part three goes into it. But we also need a Baghdad bob…

      • Christopher M. Chupik

        I think the problem is we have way too many Baghdad Bobs.

        • I meant on OUR side.

          • Christopher M. Chupik

            Well, hopefully a bit better than BB, in that case.

          • It is rather appalling to consider how perfect Trump may prove for that role.

            And having a Secretary of Defense known as “Mad Dog” probably will not hurt.

            America has a deep tradition of such braggadocio, of course …


            I say, Mr. Speaker; I’ve had a speech in soak this six months, and it has swelled me like a drowned horse; if I don’t deliver it I shall burst and smash the windows. The gentleman from Massachusetts [Mr. Everett] talks of summing up the merits of the question, but I’ll sum up my own. In one word I’m a screamer, and have got the roughest racking horse, the prettiest sister, the surest rifle and the ugliest dog in the district. I’m a leetle the savagest crittur you ever did see. My father can whip any man in Kentucky, and I can lick my father. I can outspeak any man on this floor, and give him two hours start. I can run faster, dive deeper, stay longer under, and come out drier, than any chap this side of the big Swamp. I can outlook a panther and outstare a flash of lightning, tote a steamboat on my back and play at rough and tumble with a lion, and an occasional kick from a zebra. To sum up all in one word, I’m a horse. Goliath was a pretty hard colt but I could choke him. I can take the rag off, frighten the old folks, astonish the natives, and beat the Dutch all to smash, make nothing of sleeping under a blanket of snow, and don’t mind being frozen more than a rotten apple. Congress allows lemonade to the members and has it charged under the head of stationery. I move also that whiskey be allowed under the item of fuel. For bitters I can suck away at a noggin of aquafortis, sweetened with brimstone, stirred with a lightning rod, and skimmed with a hurricane. I’ve soaked my head and shoulders in Salt River, so much that I’m always corned. I can walk like an ox, run like a fox, swim like an eel, yell like an Indian, make love like a mad bull, and swallow a Mexican whole without choking if you butter his head and pin his ears back.
            [americanlitred0209[DOT]wikispaces[DOT]com/Davy+Crockett%27s+Brag?responseToken=031cfae604ee50c55754d09f7900e3cb9]

  10. Tap tap tap. Peer. Tap, tap tap. Peer.
    “Acme wizard supply, customer service”
    “Hello? This crystal ball you sold me is defective. I can’t see a thing.”
    “OK, Is it plugged in?”

    • I’m sorry, sir. It appears you have an ID10T problem,

      • “Why are you wearing bandages, Jannes?”
        “it appears that a customer had a problem with one of our crystal balls, and called customer service. He just sent us an e-mail claiming that our employee asked him a stupid question and then insulted him.
        “So?”
        “He may really be a wizard. The e-mail was quite heated.”

    • The helpdesk folks who worked for me several jobs back used “OK, first lets try unplugging your machine from the wall plug and then plugging it back in. Make sure the other end of the power cord is fully seated in the back of your machine – sometimes it gets pulled out when you unplug from the wall” to address the it’s-not-plugged-in question without calling the user an idiot.

      They got lots and lots of “Oh, you’ll never guess what I found under my desk,” along with “Hey, that worked!” And “Nevermind, it’s working now.”

      • I wasn’t even aware that crystal balls came equipped with power cords. Why didn’t Acme’s promotional material mention this advance in technology?

        • kenashimame

          I thought crystal balls were power via a Tesla-esque wireless system.

          • The power transmitter still needs a source, so… now you have more distributed problem.

          • This new thing in electronic amplification seems mostly to introduce a new source of interference. It seems that Acme switched over to the new product line and dropped the old one without telling anyone.

        • ACME’s technical support representative for the Western U.S. region, Mr. Wile E. Coyote, Super Genius, will be happy to make a field visit to demonstrate proper device setup and initialization.

          (Aside: I have wondered what the real Coyote thinks of Wile E. – he’s reputed to have a sense of humor, so hopefully he thinks it’s funny. If I worked with Chuck Jones back in the day, I’d have kept an eye open for practical jokes apparently perpetrated by wildlife.)

          • I thought I’d seen that face before. If he tried it out first to locate that Roadrunner, no wonder it doesn’t work anymore!

      • I’ve heard that if you ask them whether they really have to tell people that the “any” key is another name for the enter key, they will find it mildly funny, in the sort of too-true-to-be-very-funny way.

        • Or ‘spacebar’ since if the case is not truly ‘any’ and ‘enter’ has meaning, space tends not to Do Things that are unexpected.

        • I was working for a local tech company in 1986 that made accounting software to manage companies that filled vending machines. It was normal for the CEO to have a high school or less education, and his main computer operator was his wife or elderly mother. We got asked so many times what the “any” key was that we had spacebar keys manufactured with the words “any key” on them and replaced the ones that came with the computer. Did that for 5-6 years.

      • Patrick Chester

        You can get similar things with some network issues. Some people have their desk in an open area and then go away on some trip or something. When they come back they can’t connect to the network. Why? Because someone borrowed their network cable, plugged their laptop or whatever in and they didn’t put it back when they were done.

        At least that’s what I think happened. They fixed the problem when I asked them to doublecheck and make sure the network cable was still plugged in and it wasn’t.

  11. kenashimame

    c4c

  12. Eight years of the apologist in chief, and now according to our MSM we are a stone’s throw away from impeaching the current commander in chief.
    Mixed messages, oh hell no, very clear to furrin folk, America is falling apart, weak, and ripe for a takeover.
    So I’m expecting another Pearl Harbor or 9/11 any time now.
    Our response to Pearl ultimately was two nukes and the destruction of the classic Japanese culture. Yes, they do maintain many of the trappings, but we forcibly removed from them their concept of God Emperor, and made them a democratic republic.
    9/11 got the Arab world two wars, countless military actions, and untold death and destruction. And missed the use of limited tactical nukes mainly because of a lack of a clear target.
    Time alone will tell of our response to the next attack, but it will most certainly be violent and ugly.

    • Exactly. We need to start bluster and attack now, or we will catch a big one. I don’t know what the big one will be, and I know NYC is full of crazies, but I have friends (and some people on this blog) there. I’d rather bluster and attack than have them attack us first and have us do something they will regret. Or worse, given the traitors within, not respond even then and end up losing a lot of the country.

      • Don’t we have to rebuild our military first? I’m willing to pay the price it takes to subdue the Muslims. We should beat them like we did the Japanese. The Koran itself says that you engage in violent jihad or support those who do as a part of being a Muslim. They are a worse danger to us than the Japanese ever were. I have a nephew who is a business expat (in London for the London Bridge attacks) and another who is of military age.

      • Hrm, what would send a message without being genuinely excessive… for now?

        “Vessels attacking our shipping in the Gulf will be fired up, ideally sunk. No more mere letters.”
        * A sinking or two later…
        Iran: Hey! Come on!
        “Dear Iran: You like that Navy thing you have? Behave or it goes away.”

        • kenashimame

          “Dear Ayatollah, In the interest of ensuring a vibrant ecosystem in the Persian Gulf, the United States Navy has begun a program of seeding the Gulf sea floor with anchors for coral reefs. Your navy’s assistance in providing said seeds in the form of its vessels is truly appreciated.”

        • “up,” —> “upon,”

        • I would like to see us take out the Iranian Revolutionary Guard. Leave the regular military alone, for now, but hamper the regime’s ability to terrorize its own people.

          Modern shipping technologies have solved the primary problem of blockades: what to do about shipping from powerful neutral nations. If you take out the transshipment pumps and the container handling gear in a port, you shut that port down just as effectively as if you parked a man of war in the harbor. Furthermore, it’s just as shut down if a Russian or Chinese ship come in, with no risk of escalation from firing on it.

          • ” Furthermore, it’s just as shut down if a Russian or Chinese ship come in, with no risk of escalation from firing on it.”

            Which is probably one reason the Chinese have taken to arranging to have one of their “private” PLA companies contract for port management. That equipment and the personnel running it are the new “neutral flag vessels”.

        • A suggestion of an amended version:

          “Vessels approaching uninvited our shipping in the Gulf will be fired upon, first with a warning shot, second for the purpose of sinking the approaching vessel.”

          • From what I am told, Australia only issues verbal warnings, before sinking ships trying to violate our maritime borders now. It’s been very effective, and the news isn’t given a front seat view, given their sympathies.

            • A warning shot across the bow also serves as for target-ranging, no?

              Plus, there’s no chance of them claiming they didn’t hear it.

      • I keep coming back to the generational dynamics theory. IMHO, John Xenakis
        http://www.generationaldynamics.com/pg/ww2010.weblog.htm

        is a bit too in love with the theory, but he has some valid points. WWII was a generational crisis war, with the usual end . The climatic event is/was so horrible that the survivors will do most anything to avoid repeating it. It works (more or less), until the survivors die off.

        What keeps me worried is that there are several cultures in a Crisis era, US, China, much of the Middle East and several countries in Africa. It wouldn’t take much to light that fuse.

        There’s a few reasons why we retired to Deepest Oregon. Not least is the fact that the crazies don’t come here that often. (Well, coming and going for Burning Man, but that’s usually OK, modulo the Burned-out person who crashes into a motel room. “Honest officer, I thought it was the street!”) We’re also out of the line of fallout from a well-aimed nuke. Still have our set of problems, including a water-lawfare version of the Modoc Indian War. whee.

        (Interesting enough; the Xenakis theory says we’ll end up allied with Russia and Iran against Saudi Arabia, the Sunnis and the Chinese. The thinks that Iran is ripe for a revolution. Not sure I buy an alliance with Iran soon, but Russia? Maybe. See WWII…)

    • Well, if the news is to be believed, Oman is now a good nuke target.

      Why Saudi Arabia / Iran / Somalia isn’t, I don’t know.

      • The Saudis are still nominally allies. They hate Iran. And while there’s a lot of terrorism sponsoring, it’s from the rich idiots with no day jobs that the country is overrun with. Plus, they’re leading the fight in Qatar. IMO, fracking is a good punishment for them for now.

        Iran… Obama wanted to make nice. Otherwise, supporting the Green Revolution might have helped.

        As for Somalia… first you would need an organization organized enough to be worth nuking. Dropping a nuke there right now would only make the rubble bounce.

        • Iran… Obama wanted to make nice. Otherwise, supporting the Green Revolution might have helped.

          Former Official: Obama Admin ‘Systematically Disbanded’ Units Investigating Iran’s Terrorism Financing Networks
          Rep. Ed Royce: ‘Zeal for the deal’ at any cost drove decision
          The Obama administration “systematically disbanded” law enforcement investigative units across the federal government focused on disrupting Iranian, Syrian, and Venezuelan terrorism financing networks out of concern the work could cause friction with Iranian officials and scuttle the nuclear deal with Iran, according to a former U.S. official who spent decades dismantling terrorist financial networks.

          David Asher, who previously served as an adviser to Gen. John Allen at the Defense and State Departments, told the House Foreign Affairs Committee Thursday that top officials across several key law enforcement and intelligence agencies in the Obama administration “systematically disbanded” law enforcement activities targeting the terrorism financing operations of Iran, Hezbollah, and Venezuela in the lead-up to and during the nuclear negotiations with Tehran.

          “Senior leadership, presiding, directing, and overseeing various sections [of these agencies] and portions of the U.S. intelligence community systematically disbanded any internal or external stakeholder action that threatened to derail the administration’s policy agenda focused on Iran,” he testified.

          Asher now serves on the board of directors of the Foundation for Defense of Democracies’ Center on Sanctions and Illicit Finance and is an adjunct fellow at the Center for New American Security, two national security think tanks.

          He attributed the motivation for decisions to dismantle the investigative units to “concerns about interfering with the Iran deal,” a reference to the nuclear deal forged between the U.S., five other world powers, and Iran during the final years of the Obama administration.

          As a result, “several top cops” retired and the U.S. government lost their years of expertise.

          The United States squandered the chance “at a very low financial cost” to take apart Hezbollah’s finances, its global organization, and the Iran proxy’s ability to “readily terrorize us, victimize us, and run a criminal network through our shores, inside our banking systems—and in partnership with the world’s foremost drug cartels—target our state and society,” he said.
          [END EXCERPT]

          If only Obama had wanted to make a deal with the GOP half that much, eh?

          • It looks as if Obama really wanted to make nice with Iran’s mullahs/leaders. The people (fairly pro American, at least at the time) were hypovehiculated when Obama ignored the pleas for help during the attempted Green Revolution. Of course, there were a lot of people under that bus.

  13. Funny. Without Calvin, do we ever get Marx?

    Reading about things like the Geneva Republic and the Münster Rebellion makes you wonder.

    • kenashimame

      Another of my pet theories is that Socialism is what you get when you remove the Divine from Christianity. There’s still the promise of salvation, but now it comes from a mundane source.

      • Leftist politics in general being a particular flavor of Christianity with the God filed off is a pretty common theory, and not a difficult sell.

        Calvin and the Geneva theocracy produced Rousseau.

        Here’s a link to something I mentioned earlier. Radical Anabaptists really have a modern feel to them.
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Münster_Rebellion

        If you haven’t seen this one, enjoy.
        https://mises.org/library/karl-marx-religious-eschatologist

        • If anyone read that last link….

          Interestingly (to me anyway) Gordon Dickson’s Childe Cycle is based on the concept of reabsorption theology, but altered to be based on individualism rather than collectivism. And the one thing the various bad guys have is common, is that they seek stasis.

          • What is reabsorption theology?

            • Long, dense read on it here:

              https://mises.org/library/karl-marx-religious-eschatologist

              Two paragraphs below kinda spell it out and sum it up, but you really need to read the whole paper to get everything:

              “Reabsorption Theology

              But the nature of Marxism as religion cuts deeper than the follies and evasions of Marxists[7] or the cryptic and often unintelligible nature of Marxian writings. For it is the contention of this article that the crucial goal —communism — is an atheized version of a certain type of religious eschatology; that the alleged inevitable process of getting there — the dialectic — is an atheistic form of the same religious laws of history; and that the supposedly central problem of capitalism as perceived by “humanist” Marxists, the problem of “alienation,” is an atheistic version of the selfsame religion’s metaphysical grievance at the entire created universe.

              As far as I know, there is no commonly-agreed-upon name to designate this fatefully influential religion. One name is “process theology,” but I shall rather call it “reabsorption theology,” for the word “reabsorption” highlights the allegedly inevitable end point of human history as well as its supposed starting point in a precreation union with God.”

      • Marxism, being a fundamentally materialist creed, has no space for the immaterial.

        • You’re kidding, right?

          One of the many many problems of Marxism is that it is essentially magical, or totally dependent on magic, at the most key points.

          Like, say, the mystical transformation of the dictatorship of the proletariat into true communism.

          • BobtheRegisterredFool

            Both are true.

            Marx took a heresy of Christianity and rebranded it as a science, borrowing the prestige science was developing. It runs on mystic gabble, so it can promise things things that no honest secular philosophy could. It passes that jibber-jabber off as legitimate reason, letting its cultists look down their noses as us poor benighted fools who, say, think Jesus is not going to buy our argument that the people we really want to murder are not human.

          • BobtheRegisterredFool

            Inevitable historical forces are basically spirits. The principles they operate by and the means they use to change reality are exactly as provable and verifiable as any other spirit.

            However, their proprietors deny that inevitable historical forces are spirits. They include people who would sneer at putting up a horseshoe to ward off the Good Folk precisely because the ideology, denying the very idea of spirits, does not provide them with the tools to test whether or not something is essentially a spirit.

            • BobtheRegisterredFool

              Argh, I shouldn’t have trusted auto-corrupt’s suggestion of ‘proprietors’. Technically it works, the word I have in mind is one I cannot spell, but it is a better word.

            • This is just one of many instances where I am forced to conclude that leftism is fundamentally intertwined with lack of self awareness.

              The exact cause and effect…. is complicated, and varies from case to case.

              • BobtheRegisterredFool

                What we call leftism has few, if any, proponents who are entirely outside of Marx’s influence. So they tend to inherit his deceit that socialism is a science (or atheist philosophy) rather than a simple heresy of Christianity.

                Furthermore, there is a large subset of the left who additionally inherits from the collection of qualities desired by the soviet masters.

                As an asocialist, I’m tempted to think they believe in a fraudulent idea because something inside them calls out for deception. But I really know very little about how others think.

        • I’m with Greg, on this one: Marxism is not fundamentally materialist, although it and its adherents claim it to be. It’s also far from scientific, although they claim that, as well.

          You get down to the roots with most of it, and there ain’t no “there” there; it’s all tortured, specious reasoning that is both incoherent and inconsistent–And, it relies on faith as much as the most transcendent revealed traditional religion out there, and it’s about as testable as any of them.

          Supposedly, Marxism is this totally scientific theory, but when you go looking at the basis for that…? Uhm. Yeah. It’s all a damn handwave, and a fraud. I’ve often wondered if Marx wasn’t a front man for a huge con, because there is so much in his work that simply isn’t well-defined or thought out. Little things like a solid working definition of the terms he uses, like “value”. He kept changing that, and I don’t think that there w, as ever a satisfactory answer given on it, by anyone.

          What is interesting about Marxism is the parallels with all the various “savior” religions, including the one ElRondo himself came up with. You look at the whole thing from the standpoint of it being a rather nutty religious sect, and all of a sudden, you understand the appeal. Want to serve your fellow man? Communism. Want to stick it to the “exploiter”? Communism. Want to do well for yourself? Communism. Pie in the sky, by-and-by? Lordy, they do it better than the Master’s good Christian church did it for their slaves, and a lot of the language/techniques are the same, just recast for a different audience.

    • Are you kidding? Marx preceded Calvin by a good century!

  14. https://sdb.dotclue.org/cd_log_entries/2003/12/AletterfromTehran.shtml

    I know my nation. I know my people. We don’t want to destroy you all. But if you (I mean “Muslims”) place us in a position where only you or us can survive, it’s going to be us, and you’ll all be dead. We can do that; we’ve had that capability for a very long time. We don’t want to, but we will if we must.

    But it would be better, for you and for us, if it did not come to that.

    IMO, WWI broke Europe largely because there was so much slaughter for no better reason than a couple of central European countries went full asshole and everyone else felt honor-bound to join in. I’m not sure that wiping out the Muslim world would break Americans. We are generally far more comfortable with the idea of self defense and that some people are simply better off dead. With the exception of those Americans who idolize Europe to the point that they break themselves, most of us would feel terrible about destroying the Muslim world but also recognize that it was necessary.

    • The US public’s response to Hiroshima and Nagasaki was basically “pity about that” combined with a huge sigh of relief that, because those cities were wiped out, the war was finally over. The Eurocentric wannabe-aristo class have been desperately trying to induce guilt ever since. That effort really didn’t gain any traction at all on my relatives who were riding troop trains towards the west coast, redeploying for the invasion of Japan after combat in the ETO – they said the Atomic Bomb saved their lives – nor on their families whoe were just grateful for getting their sons and husbands home safe when so many others did not.

      I have a feeling that a similar dynamic would apply if enough damage to the US was inflicted triggering a glass-em response, in spite of our betters telling us how ashamed we should be.

      Add in that that level of response would likely require some set of NYC/DC/Atlanta/LA be smoking ruins, so any remaining opinion shapers might be less inclined to play the ‘have you no shame, America!’ card.

      I have a theory about how fast the media scum turned back to attacking America after 9/11: A lot of people across the US had first or second order relationships with people who died either in the WTC or the Pentagon, but the targets were not broadcast centers per se, so the media elite didn’t lose their own friends and colleagues in large numbers. The degree of narcissism and sociopathy required to climb the stairway of skulls to success and prominence in the media world means some major portion of those successful media folks simply can’t see the general populace, the subjects and target market of their product, as actual real people at all.

      If instead a plane had taken out one of the broadcast HQs, killing what those media types consider ‘real’ people, I think the media would have been the ones leading the charge.

      A couple smoking holes that overlap where major broadcast centers or news operations used to be in the US, and I bet that’s what happens, and I just don’t see the U.S. public, egged on by the outraged remnant media, changing their mind because some college profs and billionaires lecture them.

      But I do think Sarah is correct – not so much the actual doing of glassing nor the immediate response, but dealing with the world after we let ourselves loose like that would fundamentally change the U.S. forever, and I’d much rather not experience that change.

      • Yep, had the jihadis struck at NBC HQ it would indeed have been a bad day at black rock (heh) and more than Michael Moore would have cried, “Hey – those were Hillary voters!”

        I have considered the universe in which we invade the Japanese home islands, sustaining the million casualties anticipated and killing milliions of starving japanese women, children and elderly guerrilla resistance fighters, sharing dominion in Tokyo as we did in Berlin with Uncle Joe. And what would happen when, as would be inevitable, news leaked out that we’d had a super-weapon which could have ended the war without that invasion. It seems to me that Truman”s best case scenario is impeachment, with tar & feathers far more likely.

    • D. H. Lawrence:

      “All the other stuff, the love, the democracy, the floundering into lust, is a sort of by-play. The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer. It has never yet melted.”

  15. I’ll go read, but communism as a result of a successful defensive war against Islamic invasion of Europe seems… a stretch. Because the Dar-al Islam fought the west to a draw. Christian Asia Minor is gone.

    But I’ll give it a go.

    • Okay. So not *that*

      I note from the P.O.V. of all the forgotten tribes who were in the path of the Zulus what it took to bring the tribe to the point where their neighbours weren’t in permanent jeopardy mighn’t seem so bad.

      I look forward to part three.