SO Tired of the Bull Excreta

Okay, this is an odds and sodds post, but the first thing to do is to say that while I thought Captain Comic’s pamphlet juvenile, I didn’t think it was unfunny, I certainly didn’t think it was offensive (ah, yes, the famously bad word genitalia.  Let me clutch my pearls.)

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The Science Fiction Establishment Clutches Its Pearls!

I can sort of understand their taking the pamphlets off the table, though, not because they were the Worst Thing EVAH but because they were a direct attack on their philosophy.  Worse, they were a HUMUROUS attack on their philosophy and as we all know the devil cannot be mocked.

What I CANNNOT understand or forgive is the taking of the ribbons “Ask not for whom the puppies bay” and “Strawman Larry, that Man is a Jerk” while digs at them are WAY more subtle, are not offensive, and couldn’t even REMOTELY upset a person who is not on the other side of the controversy, even when that person was raised in a convent and never heard the word “genitalia” as clearly a lot of the SJWs did.

THIS is theft, nothing more, nothing less.  Oh, no wait, it’s also more.  It’s censorship of despised view points.  Worse than that, apparently Sasquan thanked this woman, Dori, for “policing” the freebies table in a public tweet.  I want to know who did it, and I want that person reprimanded by the  con.  There is nothing offensive about those ribbons — most of Liberton con had at least one — and you have no right to confiscate them and not allow them distributed.

This is Captain Comic’s comment on it in the comments:

I don’t tweet or twit or twot or what the hell ever, so I’ve not been able to thank any of the counter protesters on the chain, notably one Jim Rizzi (@RizziWorld). If your reading this, Jim et al, thanks for backing up if not me, at least the first amendment.
And to whomever used an official Sasquan handle/account to thank her, excuse me, I mean thank xir (fight cis normative pronounds now!) I say this:
You work with/for the con. You people have the reg info. There can’t be that many people with a “Captain Comic” badge name, and darn fewer with a first name of David. You want me, call me out with the Cat Voice From The Ceiling system (it makes more sense if you’re attending). Put something up on the meet and greet board and I’ll see about dropping by for a visit.
As I commented at Amanda’s blog, how the hell did this ever become THIS?
I AM EMANUEL GOLDSTEIN!
FTW!
Sincerely yours,
David
Captain Comic
Evil League of Evil Faceless Minion #6969
(And how did all the “childish/juvenile/immature” detectives miss THAT one?)

As for Mary-Three-Names claiming that the people who wear those completely innocuous ribbons self-identify — yeah, as what, not afraid of your shunning and calumny, Mary?  And Mary, darling, remember, you also just self-identified.  Me, I’d like to identify as not bowing down to the SJWs, right now, because, you know, congenital stiffness of the back.  I get it from my science fiction daddy.

And since yesterday one of the few people I respect and try to listen to (I don’t in general listen very well.  Not something to be proud of and something I try to change, but it’s not my default mode) Dr. Pournelle asked me why I am not writing, and why I’m involving myself in fannish politics.

I am writing — actually more than I have been in years, until yesterday when allergy to an antibiotic made it hard to see, let alone write, and I wouldn’t have written that post if I hadn’t been mad enough to do it despite illness — however, this is important because it’s no longer fannish politics.  If nothing else, this kerfuffle has proven it.

I’ll quote something overheard in a discussion from my friend Michael Z. Williamson:

A Latino, an Indian, and a White man
Walk into a room. How does NPR describe them? As three white men. Because badthink:
The prestigious Hugo Awards, which honor science fiction and fantasy writing, will be held Saturday. Lately, they have been given to more and more women and writers of color as the world of sci-fi opens up — and that’s prompted a backlash from a group of mostly white male writers who call themselves the “Sad Puppies.”
My question is, why does NPR suddenly care about the Hugo Awards?
Pretty much every denial of a leftist media conspiracy are left in tatters for any thinking person, by all these major media handling a very niche subject with the same dishonest party line.
Why would the WSJ EVER care about the Hugo?
Why would the Guardian?
What’s next? Pravda and Beijing’s organ, whatever it’s called?
If anyone could make me back off, it would be Dr. Pournelle, but I am sorry, this is not a fannish fight.  This is a fight for the cultural soul of the west, even if where we’re fighting is on the outskirts.
Science fiction is a beach head that the entertainment-industrial LEFT, of Course, had taken, and they’re calling all their organs, no mater how remote to come and defend it, with impeccable coordination.
I don’t like to fight, but I don’t like to submit.  When under fire my only possible response is to give them hell.  It might be ineffectual and fifty years too late, but I will not submit.
I understand not fighting before because saying “These people are all coordinated” sounds like you’re paranoid.  But when so many major organs care about an award that sometimes, in recent years, for some categories, was awarded with tens of votes, it’s no longer even a question.
I’ll just have to write with one hand and fight with the other.  In good news, I delivered Through Fire almost a month ago and am making good progress on Darkship Revenge.
Speaking of newspapers suddenly interested: for months Brad and Larry have been telling every newspaper who contacted them to please call/write/get in touch with me.  None of them have.  Of course, this could have nothing to do with my being female and foreign born and thereofore torpedoing their “white male backlash” narrative, right?  RIGHT?  Even though Brad only took point this year because I’ve been VERY ill most of the year, I’m the “token” and don’t exist.  Right…
Yesterday the WSJ shocked us almost to death by actually contacting me.  However — scalded cat being afraid of cold water, as grandma would say — just in case, you know my comments somehow get cut so I sound like a Stepford wife, I’m reproducing my answer to request for comments in full, beneath.
Hi Michael,
First of all thank you for actually contacting me.  Larry has been telling people to contact me for … a year? And no one else has.  As someone who once – long ago, in my native Portugal – trained as a journalist I applaud your intention of looking beyond hearsay.
If what I say below is not clear, please contact me to clarify.  I am suffering a massive attack of auto immune issues and am on meds that make me fuzzy-headed.
The short version of my comments is:
Sad Puppies which is a loosely connected (we’re not organized) group of fans (some of us are writers, but fans first) suspected that a small clique (whether motivated by power or politics, we don’t care) held sway over the Hugos.  This was in part because so few people voted in the award.  So we set out to increase the voter pool and we called attention to supporting/voting memberships and a group of people we thought were deserving of the award. The reaction from the clique was one of fury and name calling.  (For details look here https://accordingtohoyt.com/2015/08/12/the-goat-kicks-back/.) At this point, I’m not even going to watch the awards.  Whoever wins, we already proved our point.  Watch next year for Sad Puppies 4, the Embigenning where we make the voting pool so large even OUR suggestions hold no sway.
More detailed comments in case you need or wish for context:
I probably won’t be following the Hugo ceremony because I’m not that interested in how it turns out.  I bought a membership and voted but what we set out to do has been done whether the puppies win or Noah Award does.
We set out to prove that the Hugos, which are supposed to be a fandom award had become so reduced by low voting numbers that it was being controlled by a clique which more often than not followed a progressive agenda.
That has been more than proven by how said clique reacted to our telling our blog followers (in my case ONE post) about supporting/voting memberships and giving them a rough list (which didn’t fill all slots) of things we found interesting.
If the other side had simply said that they didn’t like our selections, we’d have gone “okay.”  Taste is taste, right? Instead they called us racist, homophobic, misogynist.  Hit pieces came out in several publications saying we wanted to take the awards back to some imaginary dark ages (science fiction has always been fairly inclusive, see post here: http://adventuresfantastic.com/the-women-other-women-dont-see/) This despite the fact that I am Portuguese, born and raised (Sarah Marques de Almeida Hoyt is my married name), that Larry is part Portuguese and that those writers we suggested are of all colors, genders and definitions. (Because we don’t care about that.  We care about the writing.) An editor on the other side compared us to child molesters.  An employee of a publishing house called us extremists. I made a little collection of the rage here:   https://accordingtohoyt.com/2015/08/12/the-goat-kicks-back/  It more than proves our point that they did all this because we encouraged the nomination of unexceptionable best sellers like Anderson and Butcher for what is supposed to be a FAN award.
That is the reaction of a small clique that has engaged in log rolling for years to reward its followers and those they approved of, whether for political reasons or others. Our point is proven.
Next year Sad Puppies 4 headed by my good friend Kate Paulk will try to make the number of voters so many that no suggestion list – not even ours – can hold sway and so that the award will be representative of what the public at large is likely to enjoy.  That way “Hugo Winner” will become a “buy signal” for most people again.  Kate intends to call it Sad Puppies 4, the Embiggenning.
Odds and sodds that have nothing to do with the Hugos (which I’d be very glad to never mention again, if giving it up wouldn’t involve surrendering) my husband has made lists of my long suffering subscribers and what they’re due.  Mind you, it won’t be quick, mostly because we’re putting the house up on Monday and things are tight as a drum till I deliver a couple more books.  But eventually those of you who’ve subscribed for a year, even if you’re not subscribers now, will get what you’re due.  And sorry this has taken so long, but my health was in such a state of collapse that my notes/keeping track of it was… almost non existent.
And yes, yes, guys.  I’m writing a short story (well around 10k words.  I’m at 8k and reshaping it so it won’t be a novel) for Ringo’s Black Tide Rising anthology.  This is difficult, because my brain is in novel mode.  But now that I’m not poisoning myself with an antibiotic that apparently was trying to kill me and that the auto-immune is bearable (I won’t say it’s better, though it is, but it’s still … well, if you don’t know how bad it can get, like my new doctor didn’t, you would still try to hospitalize me or send me to a specialist right away, or something) I’m hoping to finish it this afternoon.
And then novels will happen, possibly very fast, supposing I don’t attempt to die again soon.  And I hope I don’t because this, like the leftist kabuki theater is getting TIRESOME.

462 responses to “SO Tired of the Bull Excreta

  1. c4c. First!

  2. The thing you have to remember about antibiotics is that you’re made of biotics. You’re just trying to kill off the ones you don’t like. It’s little different from chemotherapy for cancers, only kept in a more pleasant category via semantics.

    • Yeah. Son said at a certain point antibiotics are antihumans.

    • As Doctors are only now coming to realize, for every cell in your body, you have about 10 little bacteria riding along. The antibiotic damage to them upsets your delicate ecosystem. Eat plenty of active culture yogurt; unfortunately, they don’t seem to have any good treatments for restoring say, your skin and body bacteria. Also stay clear of exploding SJWs’ heads. I’m sure there is something nasty in there.

      • A good sour sauerkraut or a hot kimchi is also good. And dill pickles.

        (And beer and wine, and real sake that’s not half alcohol from something else; but obviously not for people with carb problems.)

      • The Other Sean

        She should be safe from exploding SJW heads as evidence suggests that they are either empty or else filled with Marxist pap which Sarah’s likely immune to by this point.

      • Not sure how to keep this from getting off-color, but restoring your skin bacteria should be as easy as bringing your skin into close proximity to the skin of someone not taking antibiotics.

        • Visit your local sporting goods super store and discover that they are running a back-to-school sale. You’ll get plenty of close proximity and brief physical contact, depending on what size you are looking for and on how wide (or not) the aisles are.

  3. First of all, I am glad you seem to be feeling better!

    Second, there have been times when taking a whole stack of free flyers or newspapers has been deemed theft by the law, and stealing ribbons is obviously worse. Beyond that, no fan could be so ignorant as to think these things don’t cost time and money, or that stealing them doesn’t violate the free speech rights of everyone with stuff on the freebie table. It is called a chilling effect, and that hits everyone. It is also a violation of fannish civility, politeness, and curiosity about differing viewpoints.

    But obviously this Dori hates the whole world, so we can’t expect her to love or tolerate anyone, much less take an interest in the quirks and uniqueness of others. It does make one wonder what petty vengeance she routinely wreaks on her friends and associates, if she advertises this kind of behavior toward strangers. Probably spits in their food, since flyer-stealers usually think that is clever, too.

    • Next year they’ll know to only put out a few flyers or ribbons at a time. That way the mommy’s elves can get lots of exercise running back and forth.

    • Part of me would love to know what else is on that table. I know one of the last cons I went to that really soured me on the whole thing actually had a whole panel on teaching intersectional feminism (oppression Bingo), plus a bunch of speakers that decided that it was a con to wear shirts denigrating or hating their opponents (This con had absolutely no bearing on politics. I went to see friends and get writing…and ended up in argument over the need for message in story or the interpretation thereof). I would absolutely not surprised to see multiple things there slandering the puppies.

    • It has only been deemed theft when done by evil extremist right-wing neo-nazi types. Imagine for a moment that stack of flyers had been for #BlackLivesMatter and what the reaction to their removal (as having nothing to do with SF/F) would have been. (Hmmmm … almost makes me want to attend nexxt year and distribute pamphlets proclaiming #GreenLivesMatter, decrying the environmental damage inflicted on Mars by those damned rovers Humans keep sending. Or maybe go full avatar and declare #BlueLivesMatter.)

      OTOH, in numerous instances where conservative campus newspapers have been gathered up and destroyed by organized protesters the courts have looked t’other way, because such protest is also free speech or something. You could look it up.

      At Tufts University, editors of an independent student paper may be charged with harassment and creating a hostile environment for publishing two satires, one a Christmas carol poking fun at racial preferences, the other a “terrorism-awareness” article satirizing Islamic awareness week.
      http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/miarticle.htm?id=3847

      In 1989 the LA Times reviewed the landscape, articles.latimes[DOT}com/1989-05-01/news/mn-2210_1_uc-berkeley-conservatives-liberal-counterattack and found a vast right-wing conspiracy.

      Or just review the “Controversies” section at Wikipedia’s entry on The Dartmouth Review, where you will find such delights as

      In May of 1982, Dartmouth Review cofounder Benjamin Hart was delivering copies of the paper’s latest issue when he was attacked and bitten by a black administrator from the College’s alumni center. Although his assailant was convicted of assault and sentenced to three months probation, the Dartmouth faculty voted to censure the actions of The Review and support the alumni center employee.

      It is clear that, while Teh Left may not agree with everything we say, they will fight to the knife for our right not to say it.

      • When you put something out on display, so people will take them, it’s hard to claim someone has stolen them just because they took them all.

        I’m not saying that Miss Anal Retentive _ought_ to have taken them all and yapped to the Concom–don’t you know they’re sick and tired of her already–but she’s not doing anything illegal. Merely vindictive and publicly ill mannered.

        • And yet the presumption is that the amount any may take is limited — if not one to a customer then surely no more than two or three. And certainly not to deny others access to the item.

          Consider a slightly different situation: a person affiliated with a con removing all flyers for a competing con. Or, a person who has been discharged, for cause, from a con staff picking up and trashing all flyers for the con. Or even somebody discharged consequent to con politics doing such.

          Would not universal condemnation occur?

          In the instances of the conservative papers trashed by “activists” the argument you made — the items were put out for free, no limit — were the basis for judgments against the complainants, as I recall the cases. Which is fair and reasonable, but does anybody here believe that, for example, a similar removal of offending papers by a conservative Christian campus group would not have been found legal? If the Palestinian Student Union at UC-Berserkely put out papers slandering Israel and Jews in general I have no doubt that any protests against that would be found in violation of one or another laws/regulations.

          The legal definition of theft is secondary here to the principles of violation of social norms (it is harmful to society to force norms to be made into laws, which is a frequent consequence of such violations) as well as viewpoint discrimination.

          • Paul (Drak Bibliophile) Howard

            I took Pam’s comment as a narrow comment on the nature of the person’s wrong-doing.

            IE the person wasn’t a thief.

            I did not take Pam’s comment as saying that the person “did nothing wrong”.

            The person wasn’t a thief but was a Jerk.

            • I agree – my point was that theft didn’t really enter into it. Whether or not it is theft is a matter of prosecutorial discretion and we know how that generally flows.

              I am more concerned about actions that serve to restrict the gray area which serves to lubricate so much of societal function (e.g., the 2nd Lt. who thinks his rank makes him superior to a Sgt. and able to dieregard that NCO’s counsel.)

        • Paul (Drak Bibliophile) Howard

          Good point

      • I would suggest a #BlackLivesMatter flyer with a bunch of bafflegab and in the middle, ask why so many blacks are being killed by other blacks, and why black babies are aborted in such great numbers by Planned Parenthood because Margaret Sanger, followed by more bafflegab.

      • ” Imagine for a moment that stack of flyers had been for #BlackLivesMatter and what the reaction to their removal (as having nothing to do with SF/F) would have been.”

        I find it interesting that the lily-white Mixon felt it necessary to tack BlackLivesMatter onto the end of her acceptance speech tonight.

    • But ‘creating a hostile environment’ trumps everything, laws, the constitution, the human need for civility. Both Sad Puppies and GamerGate are nothing but constructive criticism. Get more fans involved, don’t only review the games of people you sleep with.
      And why are these two the bane of SJWs everywhere? Because in these two, pushback is wining. Intel dropped advertising on gaming sites. It knows who buys their processors. Hysteria follows. The Hugo list is filled with ‘non-approved’ nominees. Full court press, getting all the agents of the revolution involved. Of course no one wants to hear Sarah’s point of view. She is an aberration to the ‘Narrative’. Clearly a survivor of Stockholm Syndrome, because she sides with the vicious white males. Nothing to see here, move along.
      On the removal of Captain Comic’s letter there might be some justification, especially if we were living in 1950. I remember 10 years ago, on the William and Mary campus, young women were standing around with signs and saying; “Ask me about my Vagina”. (A production of ‘The Vagina Monologues’ was playing that weekend). Genitalia should not be an eye raiser at a SF convention. Alien genitals are lovingly described in many SF novels.
      The theft of the puppy ribbons is a criminal offense. If the convention organizers assisted, they are complicit. There is nothing offensive about three puppies and a twisted Hemingway quote. Besides they are my favorite colors, purple and yellow. Criminal acts were taken, the authorities should be notified and those responsible punished.

      • You mean John Donne quote 😀

        • Ah yesssss, I remember “Mean John” Donne — sharpest quill in the West. Why, he was so mean he once snarked a man just for snoring.

        • Donne was a poet, Hemingway was clearly a Science Fiction/Fantasy writer. Apparently Hemingway lived in an era where plagiarism was tolerated.

      • “Ask me about my Vagina”?????

        OMG, why was I not there?

        “Does it entertain visitors?”

        “Is it available for parties?”

        DELETE!DELETE!DELETE!DELETE! Exxxpletives.

      • Purple and Yellow are your favorite colors???? Why, those are the colors Christianists use in their celebration of Easter!! You must be a Theocrat, hot to impose your religious prejudices upon society and make handmaids of us all!!!!!

        • I didn’t know there was a linkage to Easter. But if so, the Christianists choose wisely. Purple connotates imagination and prone to fantasy daydreams. Yellow connotates happy. IMHO, a little more Christian prejudice would greatly help the country, but I’m not going to be an activist on that point.

          • Yellow is for light, the light of the world, the presence of God. Purple is the royal color, the color of a king.

            • wanderingmuses

              They’re my son’s favorite colors because they’re the Lakers’ colors lol.
              I raised him to be a Spurs fan, the turncoat!

          • If purple and yellow are really your favorite colors, I can help you out with making yourself purple and yellow. 😉

      • Should have been Rainbow ribbons, for the extra strong effect.

  4. To our most esteemed hostess:

    On behalf of all Huns I humbly request that you do not die anytime soon. We are, admittedly, a rowdy and selfish lot, and one thing we want is more of your writing. There is not anywhere near enough of it. And many of your series are not finish and are promising to become even more interesting. So please, if it is at all in your power: Do not die. Get better soon. Write and release more.

    Lovingly, A fan

  5. I’ve been at Sasquan for the last three days, despite the fact SF/F is not (yet) my genre. Yesterday was by far the worst and I found the complete lack of understanding of what Sad Puppies is/was tied up with the greater progressive cause, with outright calls for more smart persons of color or women, diversity for the sake of appearances, and one poor lady lamenting that her teenage daughter was distraught because Darren Wilson wasn’t charged in Ferguson.

    Still, I managed to learn a few useful things there. The What’s New at Baen panel was a heap of fun. They said nice things about you, Sarah, along the lines of deep and a little quirky. Also spotted a copy of Darkship Renegades at Auntie Bookstore.

    Skipping the awards themselves. Got a birthday party for a 1 year old to make.

    • This is the thing that is killing me. MidAmerica is 5 hrs from me next year and I would consider, especially if I can get back into writing and reading since this year has been too busy, but why would I want to go somewhere where you have attendees threatening you, having to keep your head down to not be kicked out for making someone feel ‘unsafe’ by just being there. Admittedly this is WA state and Kansas/Missouri are a bit different, but I figure it is the same group..

      I want to go to a con to deal with imaginary worlds. Have whatever debate you want about the imperial senate procedure or how the orcs and elves should find this common ground, but leave real world stuff out of it.

      • Imagine their shock if informed they were fostering a hostile environment.

        Of course, their response is all too predictable: it is the Puppies creating the hostile environment!

        Yeah, blame the victim because the alternative — accepting responsibility — is too horrifying to contemplate.

        • But even blame the victim is situational. You can not suggest to college women that passing out drunk on the beach during spring break might increase your chance of being raped. That would be blaming the victim.

          • That’s not even the half of it. Deliberately having sex then deciding it was probably a bad idea is rape these days.

            Or, in one case, molesting a blacked out drunk guy without him either realizing it or regaining consciousness is being raped.

            In the interest of avoiding all these horrible rapes, perhaps we should ask the ladies to remain safely at home and only leave the house under the protection of a male relative. Covering themselves from head to toe so no one will tempted to rape them might not be a bad idea either. Something loose and shapeless, I’m thinking.

            • No, that’s too complicated, but I’ve got it all figured out based on what I’ve learned from reading the rantings of SJWs.

              First, I’ve learned that only men can rape and at the same time, men cannot be raped.

              Secondly, it’s said that gender is nothing more than a societal construct. Beyond that, there’s no difference between men and women, none whatsoever.

              Therefore to stop rape all we need to do is declare that all women are now men. Since gender is a construct, there is nothing different about these newly proclaimed men and since they are men they can go anywhere they want and do whatever they want without fear of rape because as men they cannot be raped.

              • Brilliant! And when they tell us what we’ve been doing wrong our whole lives (is that an Olympic sport, yet?) we can tell them to stop mansplaining.

            • Objection!

              The appropriate term is “molesting a blacked African-Americaned out drunk guy”!

            • I see the present state of affairs as a very good argument for abstinence

              yet as convoluted as things have become deliberately not engaging in sex (of some kind) will also be seen an offense.

              • That seems to be the way things are headed. More porn, less sex, no lawyers necessary. Wait until the Japanese perfect the sexbot and the whole human race will become extinct.

              • Of course, by not wanting to have sex with people that you’re not attracted to you’re implying that those people are inferior.

                • And not wanting to hear about how they have sex with each other is a “phobia”. It’s the definition of tolerance: have fun, I don’t care. But if you’re so sure it’s the right thing to be doing why do you keep demanding my approval? Seriously, just let me finish my sandwich and quit telling me about what you put where.

                • You know, I’ve just been reading Ringworld Engineers and Ringworld’s Children for the first time, and that statement brings to mind the Ringworld peoples’ custom of rishathra (cementing relations between unrelated branches of hominids with sex), which now has me looking for the brain bleach.

                  • Could be worse. My daughter likes to show me the ‘otherkin’ she deals with on Tumblr. Bleach isn’t enough, after that. Possibly napalm.

              • scott2harrison

                Some of the trannies are already claiming that lesbians refusing to have sex with them because they have or had a penis even though they identify as women is bigotry.

              • There was actually a college that included “withholding sex and affection” as a form of violence — on its website , no less, for a long time. (Gone now.)

            • “Or, in one case, molesting a blacked out drunk guy without him either realizing it or regaining consciousness her is being raped by him:”

              FTFY.

              • As the prior bit was about the behavior of female snowflakes, I assumed that was clear: the female sexually assaulted the male while he was unconscious. The male victim was then accused of rape and expelled from the school. (It was only Amherst, but still…)

        • But then it is my responsibility to deal with it in their eyes. I am white male and don’t fit their victim boxes.

  6. For the Sad Puppies Playlist, a sadly apropos Tool track, The Grudge.

    Wear the grudge like a crown of negativity.
    Calculate what we will or will not tolerate.
    Desperate to control all and everything.
    Unable to forgive your scarlet lettermen.

    Clutch it like a cornerstone. Otherwise it all comes down.
    Justify denials and grip ’em to the lonesome end.
    Clutch it like a cornerstone. Otherwise it all comes down.
    Terrified of being wrong. Ultimatum prison cell.

    […]
    Defining, confining, controlling, and sinking deeper….
    […]

  7. Paul (Drak Bibliophile) Howard

    First, Sarah please take care of yourself.

    Second, one of the reasons that Lefties/Liberals seriously piss-me-off is that they make Mountains-Out-Of-Molehills where their “issues” are involved but the so-called polite ones dismiss as unimportant matters that Conservatives see as important.

    IE their shit is important and our concerns are unimportant/stupid/bigoted. [Frown]

    • Sometimes I marvel at how Edward Teller managed to think so _small_.

      • I heard Edward Teller speak at the University of Colorado in 1961 and I remember feeling that he was surrounded by an aura of EVIL. I was an engineering and physics major at the time and not much into auras – it left an impression.

        • The physicist?

        • I assure you that Dr. Teller was not EVIL nor did he, to most people, exude an aura of EVIL. He exuded rationality.
          Teller saw to it that no positive void reactor could ever be licensed ion the United States. The Soviet Union did not. At Chernobyl they learned why they should have adopted Teller’s safety rules.

          • Chernobyl could have used ANYONE’S safety rules. From what I read about the events leading to the explosion, they couldn’t have done better if they were TRYING to blow it up.

          • BobtheRegisterredFool

            He would have been one of the intellectuals who didn’t lie to himself about what the Soviet Union really was, and might’ve had the access to know about some of the really bad stuff. That knowledge would wear on many souls.

            How would a supporter of capital punishment look to someone who had never heard of capital offenses, and didn’t believe that a person could rape, kidnap, murder or commit arson?

          • No student of History would argue that rationality and evil were mutually exclusive.

            Not disagreeing with you on Teller, merely observing your defense is not responsive.

    • Narcissists gonna narc.

  8. You know, I had actually been impressed with Sasquan as a convention; they seemed to be handling the Hugo and all the increased supporting membership numbers with grace and class.

    After this little episode, and its’ apparent approval by Sasquan, I’m not impressed any more.

    The proper response to all of this should have been “Thank you for expressing your concerns. Now, take these back where you found them and take no more than one away. If you do anything else, you are the one who will be leaving.

    • Oh, I can probably tell you what’s happening.

      The person who got onto the Twitter feed was probably also the person running Ops, simply by default of being left alone there for a while. He/she was left alone with Ops because everyone else on concom, and all the other gofers and staff, were busy working and putting out fires.

      He (or she) was probably instructed to call Concom about anything that happened, and not to make any decisions or pronouncements. Being a Person of Officiousness, he immediately decided to make all the decisions and pronouncements that he could. He was probably very frustrated about the lack of people needing his “help” until Dori came along.

      It is highly likely that none of the real convention runners have even had time to look at the official Sasquan Twitter feed, although they may have briefly tweeted some announcements or set up some automated tweets to come out at designated times.

  9. I understand you and Amanda are going to assist Kate with SP4. I don’t think the SJW’s can stand up to that Triumvirate.

    Hugs and prayers

  10. They have perfected the technique of the Big Lie. Keep throwing out outrageous accusations (that to an informed insider don’t even pass the laugh test), talk them up so the outsider writing an article about them will see “that they are passionately believed in” (as an all-time evil genius of propaganda put it),… and throw out mud in the hope some of it will stick.

    In the name of The True Faith, it isn’t just permissible to lie to advance a higher truth, but praiseworthy. Pia fraus this used to be called.

    • Exactly – the Big Lie. Repeated often enough, and from as many different directions as possible, and it sticks like a barnacle.

    • Don’t forget, when the opponent says something, reinterpret their statement to prove your point. Edit out the parts you don’t like, change the context to make everything look like it is not.

    • “In the name of The True Faith, it isn’t just permissible to lie to advance a higher truth, but praiseworthy.” I just realized they took this from Islam and Mohammed. Muslims can not lie to another Muslim, but lying to Christians and other nonbelievers is indeed praiseworthy.

      • At least in Islam it seems to be considered bad form to lie to your coreligionists. SJW’s lie even to each other and themselves. It’s how they hold A and Not A in their pointy little heads without them exploding.

        Q: Whats the difference between a used car salesman and an SJW?
        A: The used car salesman knows when he’s telling a lie…

        I don’t usually agree with Vox Day but this one he has right. “SJW’s always lie.”

      • It’s called taqqiya. There’s a related concept called hudna, which basically says an agreement with an infidel should be kept only until it is to believers’ advantage to break it. Both of these are defined in the Koran, by the way.

        This is why a society cannot live with Leftists or Muslims.

  11. Sad Puppies would probably get fair coverage from the likes of Pravda or the various Chinese state papers long before getting such from the Progressive dominated media in the West.

  12. Hey Sarah…

    A friend of mine wants to know if you’ll “change the name so that they can avoid the issues that will carry over form using the Sad Puppies banner.” What do you think…?

    • GamerGate sounds nice. And there’s some great mascot artwork already.

      Seriously, though, the slanders will carry over, regardless of the name.

      • How about a blend. Sad Puppy Gate? Sad Gamers? Gamer Puppies? “Bad Puppy! play games outside the gate!”

        • Sad puupies fourYou awakened the bitches..

          • And my wife was displeased when I called the dog a son of a bitch.

            • I love to watch dog shows, the commentator will come out with something like; “And she is a young bitch, this is only her third showing, but full of energy and grace.”

              • I’ve heard that a lot less now that prime time TV shows are allowed to use the word. They really seemed to emphasize it, didn’t they?

          • Sad Puppies 4 – The embitchening

          • Paul (Drak Bibliophile) Howard

            Why am I thinking of the Talking Dogs in C. S. Lewis’s The Last Battle?

            “Sometimes we call our pups boys”.

            “And if the pups are really bad, we call them girls”.

            “Watch your language, there’s quality present”. [Very Big Grin]

          • Perhaps next year’s patch/logo could have three female puppies named after prominent women writers?

            • Sad Puppies 4, the bitches are back?

              • Surprisingly little change in lyric required.


                I was justified when I was five
                Raising cane, I spit in your eye
                Times are changing, now the poor get fat
                But the fever’s gonna catch you when the bitch gets back

                Eat meat on Friday that’s alright
                Even like steak on a Saturday night
                I can bitch the best at your social do’s
                I get high in the evening sniffing pots of glue

                I’m a bitch, I’m a bitch
                Oh the bitch is back
                Stone cold sober as a matter of fact
                I can bitch, I can bitch
                `Cause I’m better than you
                It’s the way that I move
                The things that I do

                I entertain by picking brains
                Sell my soul by dropping names
                I don’t like those, my God, what’s that
                Oh it’s full of nasty habits when the bitch gets back

          • so for SAD PUPPIES 4 the bitches will be in charge
            .
            .
            .
            and may god have mercy on their souls

          • I would like to donate money to this cause. May I please? And if it could be sub-subtitled “We Fight Like Girls” I will also donate blood.

            • Maybe at the con you could arrange a blood drive as RAH did?

              • Paul (Drak Bibliophile) Howard

                Blood Drive? I thought the “donate blood” was for Jim “Hickey”. [Yes, I know Kate said that Jim doesn’t use the last name of “Hickey”.] [Big Grin]

          • I would suggest “pit bulls”, but “pit bulls, pit cows, and pit trannies; it’s gonna be the Pits to be you” might be good.

        • Gamera Puppies.


          If you strike us down, we shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.

    • Christopher M. Chupik

      If we change it, the other side will say our brand is “toxic” and that we’re trying to hide. Might as well be loud and proud.

    • Paul (Drak Bibliophile) Howard

      Not Sarah, but IMO the usual idiots say “Look they changed the name from Sad Puppies so we must be winning”. [Frown]

    • BobtheRegisterredFool

      There is approximately zero chance of that happening.

    • It’s a trap. That’s something that #gamergate’s opponents have been urging us to do ever since it became apparent we were not going to be properly shamed by our betters and slink away. The idea is to divide and distract. And once a new name is adopted, the exact same lies and invective will be hurled against the newly renamed group, with a side order of “and they are just trying to hide how they are really ______ because they are so ashamed of their bigotry, racism, homophobia, etc.”

    • John Cunningham

      Change the anme of Sad Puppies? tht would be idiocy, giving in to the SJWs. no more Marquess of Queensbury claptrap–I say time to kick them in the balls

  13. I’ve decided not to follow the awards live this time. I’m tired, I have stories to write and a novel that I need to get back to, plus work stuff. And family stuff. The “adults behaving badly” foolishness can wait.

    Oh, yeah, and I just discovered that there will be a third Alexi/Baba Yaga story. Will the next person to see my muse please tell her to lay off the stimulants and to go on a looooong vacation to the Bahamas?

  14. those of you who’ve subscribed for a year, even if you’re not subscribers now, will get what you’re due.

    Already have, and more than I’m due, thankee kindly.

  15. “Genitalia” is actually a fairly polite way of referring gender-neutrally to the sex organs. What really offended the SJW was that the pamphlet spoke the truth.

    • Captain Comic

      The only other generic word I could think of to use was “crotch”.

      If “genitalia” caused this much foofoorah, I think the c-word might have caused a torches and pitchfork evening.

      • You could have just claimed that you dictated it to Bert.

        http://sluggy.wikia.com/wiki/Bert

      • You need to learn to Google synonyms. Although the generic that seems most suitable — privates — poses several problems.

        1. It encourages discrimination against other non-commissioned officers.

        2. Current liberal doctrine seems to forbid making the topic private; indeed, it insists on rubbing our noses in the issue.

        • Unless you call your private ‘Sergeant’, a private soldier is not a non-commissioned officer. Corporals and sergeants are non-commissioned officers, deriving their authority from the commissioned officer above them. (Though I’d like to see a 2nd Lt. tell a sergeant major what to do. Technically, he can, but it wouldn’t be pretty.) Commissioned officers derive their authority directly from the state. A private soldier is subject to both, historically being either a paid sword or conscript.

          • I plead coffee deficiency and through myself on the mercy of the court martial, pleading guilty of offense against linguistic accuracy, acknowledging this to be a capital crime meriting flogging.

            “Couldn’t think of a better basis for charging discrimination” is inadequate defense.

            “It encourages discrimination against other members of the Army” would have been a more appropriate turn of phrase.

            • Oh, why didn’t ya say so?
              And since when do those lovely folks need a reason to discriminate against the armed forces? (As everyone knows, they kill babies.)

          • Does a 2nd Lt. who knows what he’s doing outrank a Sgt. Major who’s puffing and blowing?

            • It depends on whether have Faith.

            • To my experience, the odds of a butter bar knowing more than sergeant major are slim indeed. 98% of butter bars are like great puppies romping through a basket of clean laundry. Cute, but they make more work. The other 2% have the good sense to tell their sergeants the gist of the plan and get out of the way.

              The other thing is the colonel. The sergeant major is the equivalent of the colonel’s work wife. So a 2nd Lt. may have the legal authority to tell the colonel’s wife what to do, but it would not behoove him to do so.

              • At one point and for some reason at my last unit, I was assigned to one of the baby lieutenants as my reporting official – me, as a 19-year E-6. The First Shirt told me not to break the LT, who was a very good sport about it all. I guess that the purpose of the exercise was to give him practice in writing performance reports … and for me to teach him certain key essentials of military life.

                • It’s good for them! You wouldn’t want an E-1 straight out of basic making decisions, would you? Same for O-1. Let them get their feet wet, learn how everything works. If they’re smart they’ll try very hard not to look stupid. Best way to do that is watch and learn.

                  When a friend of mine got his butter bars and first posting, his (E-7 at that point, I think?) father gave the platoon sergeant his home number with instructions to call if his son wasn’t behaving.

                  (I got out as a Spec-4… best rank ever invented. Too glorified to do scut work, too low to be blamed. Almost as good a Warrant.)

                  • I salute my fellow member of the E-4 mafia!

                    (I was “assistant supply NCO,” as the supply section was the supply sergeant, me, and the armourer, and the armourer was a 54B on loan from a platoon; also alternate armourer, and once the energy conservation NCO.)

                    • I was a 62-E (Heavy Equipment Operator) in a ribbon bridging company (USAR) way back in the early 90s. My one sad little dozer was deadlined about 90% of the time so ‘training’ consisted of hanging out with the mechanics and listening to them carp about the perfidy of the line platoons. Taking a 5 ton with a boat on top under a low bridge, backing into a building, taking a boat up the Potomac to get doughnuts at a 7-11, actually getting a humvee stuck by balancing it on a log… the line guys had real talent. So did the mechanics; I learned all sorts of new words.

                      Good times.

                      The worst they ever did to me was decide that a fuel truck was “heavy” and “equipment”, then yelled at me for not filling out all the forms correctly. Mind you, my job was to make a landing so they could drop the bridge sections and boats into the water. I didn’t even know there were forms. (It also took me three years to figure out that the whole project could be stopped in its tracks by shooting one guy… the jerk on the dozer. I was not bright.)

                  • You want to see That Look from a sergeant, put on a pair of butterbars and announce “I have a plan.” (Enlisted to OCS here.)

              • Does the Army not have mustangs/LDOs? An LDO Ensign is NOT a 90 day wonder or straight out of the Academy butter bar. He or she has at least twelve years in and is a chief or first class eligible to become chief. So with some knowledge. Just enough to be dangerous.

                On the other hand, I have noticed that the Navy commissions a lot more former enlisted than other branches do.

                • The Army does have former enlisted who become officers through Officer Candidate School or “green to gold”–go to college and ROTC. I don’t know what the numbers were or are, but during my two years on active duty my company had two lieutenants who were former enlisted and one sergeant who went to OCS.

            • ‘A sergeant in motion outranks a lieutenant standing still.’– 70 Maxims of Maximally Effective Mercenaries

              • Patrick Chester

                Actually, it’s:
                2. A Sergeant in motion outranks a Lieutenant who doesn’t know what’s going on.

            • Does a 2nd Lt. who knows what he’s doing

              I’m sorry, but it looks like autocorrupt garbled what you were typing, and I can’t figure out what you’re trying to say.

          • A well trained and educated Lt. will order the Sgt. Major to “take appropriate action,”

        • Perhaps the Monty Python preferred name;
          Naughty Bits.

      • This is why I never finished my plays”The Dick Dialogues’,

        Well, that and whoever met a dicvk that listens?

      • I would have used ‘naughty bits’ myself, but that’s the Pyton fan in me.

    • Balderdash! They are sooooo all about “speaking truth to power.”

      If the SFWA doesn’t constitute the high tower of entrenched interests of SF, then what mixed metaphor do they represent?

      Imagine their fauxtrage over the lèse majesté if someone threatens to hurl a shoe Gerrold-ward during the Hugo presentations? Flocks of geese display more equanimity.

      • I tried speaking Truth to power, but it didn’t matter how true any of it was, there was no illumination provided until a lamp was fitted to the power socket.

    • It’s not just that it was genitalia, it was socialist genitalia.

  16. Orvan: Hey, I flush. (And wash, and…)
    So are all “Banned from Argo” now? (Hrm, ribbon idea. Oh, I am sure it’s been done before, but it can always be done again.) We just want to have a little fun, really.
    If you must dye, at least use a mordant so the color doesn’t run.
    And I know the SJW-istas so desperately wish to have the last word. Too bad, I am having a Last Word right now. It’s a lovely cocktail, it is. Some other day, perhaps I’ll take Manhattan.

  17. Oh, and Sarah? You might find it interesting to know that you’re not a “leader” of the Sad Puppies, but rather a “token.”

    https://disqus.com/home/discussion/goodereader/the_sad_joke_that_is_the_hugo_awards/

    Not that the Sad Puppies actually have a formal leadership structure, but I’d call you one of the most prominent ones, given that you’re a repeatedly-published author.

    • Also, I was supposed to be point this year if I hadn’t got ill.

      • The reason, of course, why the PK want to maintain that you’re a “token” is that it totally destroys their contention that the SP’s are white-supemacist misogynists and hate homosexuals if one of the most prominent SP’s is a Latino woman who has written homosexuals as sympathetic characters.

        Of course, one difference is that you don’t make a big blaring deal out of it. You don’t advertise yourself as “Sarah Hoyt,” GENUINE LATINO WOMAN or A Few Good Men as containing “Gays! As Heinlein Would Have Written Them If He’d Written Them!” (actually, Heinlein did sometimes, he just didn’t make a big deal about it either).

        That’s because you’re more focused on what you write and how you write it than playing some sort of bingo with various minorities (“Let’s see, we have the gay guy, the black guy, and the transwoman — do we have a Filipino lesbian pre-operative in a wheelchair?”) (“A Sprawling Tale With Hundreds of Characters, Each Belonging to a DIFFERENT MINORITY GROUP!”)

        If you see what I mean.

        • I think even more important is the term ‘token’. Back in the days racial segregation, a ‘token black’ was one that was hired and put out front so everyone would know how ‘liberal’ you or your company was. Therefore, the implication of calling Sarah a ‘token’ is that she has abandoned her sisters in victim-hood and sided with the white oppressors to give legitimacy to their cause.
          Very dark and very racist history for the word. Think Scalzi would like being called a feminist token?

          • Actually, I think tokens were more of a thing during desegregation; think of government quotas, etc, circa 1970. During segregation, it would be more like “So, what?” For example, Jackie Robinson wasn’t hired because he was black, but because he was very good.

        • Maybe we need to make a T-shirt for Sarah along the lines of ‘GynoHispanic DextroPinnic MortoBestia’…

        • SheSellsSeashells

          Which brings me back to my favorite Florence King quote (well, one of them; the woman’s a walking quote mine). “Feminists will not be satisfied until every abortion is performed by a gay, black, handicapped doctor under an endangered tree on an Indian Reservation.”

      • Christopher M. Chupik

        They cling to the idea that Sad Puppies is all guys with two or three girls as tokens. Of course, when that troll spouted that line last week, I was able to list about twenty female Sad Puppies off the top of my head, and thought of a dozen more after.

        • Why not post your list as a comment in response, on the site where he posted his comment?

          • Christopher M. Chupik

            I could, but I’m lazy.

            • I commented:
              You must be living in the past. My dogs take NexGard (afoxolaner) chewables once a month. Fleas are last millennium. Can we call you a Puppy Killer token? Since the days of ‘token blacks’ the word is considered a term of opprobrium. I bet you voted for NO AWARD.

              • So if the NO AWARD folsk win categories and I publish my forthcoming bestselling SF tome under my newly invented pseudonym Noah Ward, can I claim “Past Hugo Award Winner” on the basis of phonics?

    • The Big Lie technique again.

      But who needs bourgeois objective truth? We need revolutionary truth!
      /Self-righteous Jacobin Wannabe mode off

    • That’s a Very High Value Token that Sarah is.

  18. Glad you’re getting the meds sorted out. We need your leadership and blunt honesty! Great response to the WSJ too! Looking forward to next year! 🙂

  19. So, what I am hearing is for next year I need to organize the Sad Puppies Worldcon Freebies Table Honor Guard whose motto is “You can take just one each, Ma’am”.

  20. Captain Comic

    Sooo….

    Finally went to Dori’s (and am I the only one who keeps thinking of a nice but dim fish with memory/attention issues?) All-a-Twitter PAGE instead of that first chain link.

    So they did steal (appropriate word, no matter what they say) the ribbons.

    F*** off to all of you fascists who did that.

    And Mary Mary Quite Contrary? You can p**s off, too.

    Oh, and if anyone wants to truly horrify DorI? You can tell hir I was in the same room as xhe was! I recognize at least one of the panel quotes xhe put up.

    Sorry for being more confrontational in this post, but I never realized how tiring being this evil could be…

  21. For the record I don’t think the ribbons should have been removed.

    • Christopher M. Chupik

      For once, we agree on something.

    • If you only say that here, does it count?

      What about the pamphlets?

      The removal of “objectionable” ribbons and pamphlets is now behavior officially condoned by the con. We’ve established what they are, what remains to be determined is who gets to determine what is “objectionable”.

  22. I thought the pamphlet was funny as hell. If you took it seriously or thought it was $phobic, then you’re one of the people it targets, and not because of $Identity…

    The real lesson here is: Don’t take yourself so damn seriously that you become a laughingstock.

    • Kind of off topic, but Carly Simon was a talented woman with powerful messages in her songs. Then there was Helen Reddy, a talentless hack that couldn’t sing more than 5 words without gasping for breath. Her messages were ‘powerful’ only in the sense of a Louisville Slugger to the head (to borrow a metaphor from the puppy kickers).

      • Dude. Don’t be dissing the cast of Pete’s Dragon. That was one of the first five movies I saw in a theater.

        (Helen Reddy was a likeable singer, and she sang well what the record company gave her. She then went on to a successful if unspectacular career in live theater. Carly Simon was a different kind of singer who could make her own songs. It’s like comparing apples and oranges. You don’t have to be a songwriter and a singer, albeit it’s great to be able to do both.)

  23. Captain Comic

    Last one, I promise. (I’m off to the con for con stuff.)

    If any of the naysayers and folks with the back of their hand glued to their forehead want to find me, here’s today’s clues for the great CapCom hunt.

    1: I’m wearing glasses. (So that’s what Sarah’s shocked face looks like.)

    2: I have a gray and black backpack.

    3: I’ll be wearing a LonCon3 t-shirt. (At least until I put on a dress shirt for the Hugos.)

    Catch me if you can…

  24. Nobody has posted that song yet? So I guess I have to…

  25. Once again, if any of you are attending WorldCon and get arrested on BS charges, I have a link to criminal defense attorneys in the Spokane, WA area on my blog here: http://www.gkmasterson.com/2015/08/12/sad-puppies-why-i-dont-do-cons/

    Also, if she who is the most glorious of Evil Space Princesses would permit, I can be emailed at gk dot masterson 75 at gmail dot com — just put “At WorldCon, need backup” in the subject. We’ll chat, exchange cell phone numbers, and if the SJWs call the police on you on trumped up charges, I’ll execute whatever back-up communication plan you outline (posting something to your Facebook page, sending an email, calling someone, whatever). This offer is good for all future WorldCons since I have no plans to ever purchase a membership or attend. As a matter of fact, if they ever host a WorldCon in the state I live in, I’ll relocate (temporarily) to a different state simply so the crybaby SJWs can’t say I was doing anything bad to them.

    For SP4, I’d like to volunteer to be the out-of-theater communications person if Kate thinks that would be helpful.

    — G.K.

  26. “I’m writing a short story (well around 10k words. I’m at 8k and reshaping it so it won’t be a novel) for Ringo’s Black Tide Rising anthology. “

    Ah, you’ve got that curse. You write “short” stories.

    It’s not so bad, but it does play merrily with trying to schedule things (Okay, that’s one short story a day, how’d this take me a week?). Cursed with awesome.

  27. Sounds like Brave Little Dori would be a book burner if she could get a big enough crowd around her to hide in.

  28. This seems …


    … oddly apropos.

    HT: Power Line

    • That unicorn’s head looks like my sister’s pony, but he’s been dead and buried for decades. (Then again [comp science major I dated in college] said I have no pattern recognition, and she was right.)

  29. julieapascal

    “Self-identifying” is the problem then, isn’t it. The sorts with political tourettes (in the middle of a discussion about Mars they’ll jerk their head sideways and scream “BUSH!”) aren’t any mystery. Everyone who is at the convention who likes to mock Christians or vote for Bernie Sanders or march in an Occupy protest KNOWS they aren’t alone. The rest of us wander the halls and panels, minding our manners and trying not to offend. We are SELF ISOLATING. I’ll go so far as to take responsibility for my own feelings of isolation and stress and walking on pins and needles. My behavior is my fault.

    It’s clear, of course, that a whole lot of people would prefer that people with diverse political, religious or literary opinions simply go away because even knowing that those diverse opinions exist is somehow threatening to them, makes their con no fun, makes them nervous about the people around them. Thus, wanting something as innocuous as “Straw Larry is a jerk” ribbon or “Puppies” ribbon taken away… because no one should have to even know that THOSE people exist, because not feeling like every single person around you is in complete accord makes a place seem unsafe.

    Welcome to my world, because lord knows there isn’t anyone who’s going to stop mocking Christians or making judgmental statements about literary quality being inverse to the number of exploding helicopters or whatever matter-of-fact little exclusionary statements come so naturally.

    Instead of being self isolating, we should all be self identifying. Which is easier and more bravely said than done. Because I’ll be honest… I’m not going to the convention next week in a Puppy t-shirt. But one of our new never-been-to-a-con-in-his-life volunteers is a Larry Correia fan, and we have identified to each other. So we are not alone.

    • They simply MUST feel that they are surrounded by a consensus of feeling. Because all their REASONING is drvel, and on some level, they know it.

    • We need Human Wave challenge coins. Sarah? Shadowdancer? Some other artistically-inclined soul?

      • julieapascal

        Challenge coins are good (I ordered my first ELoE minion and an Imperial coin) but they don’t identify to someone passing in the hallway. I’d get one for sure, though.

        I think that a Human Wave t-shirt would be good. Maybe an official breast-pocket design that would be on coins or book covers and different designs on the back that are variable. I will think on it and ask my artistic progeny if they have any ideas. Would love to work with others if they are interested.

      • Well, then there’s the shirts from Ranger Up with the Arabic “N” on the front with the subtitle, “I’m not hiding,” (http://www.rangerup.com/midnazarene.html) but that’s sort of horse of another color and a more traditional Chi Rho shirt is forthcoming.

        They’ve also got one that says “Stop Whining.”

      • Christopher M. Chupik

        Yes, the Human Wave has been a big neglected in the time of Puppies, even though they are related. I’d love to have some HW swag.

      • Might I suggest the Silver Surfer on the Great Wave off Kanagawa?
        M

      • Hmm, what about that tee-shirt design we’d talked about. Astronaut on a surfboard ona breaking wave. The wave looks like space and has books in it. Back reads “Bein’ Superversive and Surfin’ the Human Wave!”

      • I’ll see if i can come up with a pattern.

    • Thanks for saying why I have no intent to attend a SciFi con after this whole cluster.

    • I went to Worldcon yesterday (the first con I’ve ever been to) wearing a Sad Puppy shirt. The only comment I got on it was from the guy at the registration desk. Of course in amidst the chain mail bikinis, and other outlandish costumes, most people don’t pay much attention to plain t-shirts.
      I did get to meet John C. Wright and his wife, which are a very nice couple. I didn’t bother staying for the awards ceremony, because I was about dead on my feet, so I went home and got some sleep. It pretty much went the way I expected except for “The Day the World Turned Upside Down” winning a Hugo.

      Oh, and I confess when I watched the awards, I thought it was poor taste when David Gerrold said that clapping for No Award was appropriate, but booing was not.

    • I got a Wrongfan button to put on my con vest, but damn if I can find the link now. I think it came from Mike Z. Anyway, figure that’ll weed friend from foe pretty quick.

      Assuming I ever get to another con, but that’s a different problem!

  30. clark e myers

    Ford Trimotor

  31. Captain Comic

    OK, one last one…
    In ten minutes or so a panel begins.

    Title?

    How Can We Make Fandom More Welcoming and Inclusive?

    Weep or laugh, weep or laugh…

    • julieapascal

      I would love to see fandom more welcoming and inclusive. I want profoundly to have the convention be a place where science fiction and fantasy fans go to find their people and feel they’ve come home.

      So the questions are these? How welcome are people going to feel when they arrive at your convention?

      Are fans who loved Lord of the Rings and Narnia going to be repelled by artwork of rampant elves in the dealer room?

      Are Mormon fans of Ender’s Game going to feel like they found fellow fans and be drawn to common interests and a wider range of authors?

      Are the members of the Black Baptist church convention that just happens to have been at the hotel the same weekend going to give any of their children permission to go to a science fiction convention ever in their lives?

      Are fans who are PoC going to heed your warnings about how horrible science fiction fans are, how sexist, racist and horrible… are they going to heed your warnings or realize you’re full of sh*t and come back next year?

      • Isn’t the panel topic a bit of begging the question?

        Isn’t fandom already completely “welcoming and inclusive”? Doesn’t the inclusion of “more” leap to an accusation contrary to fact?

        None of the fans with whom I associate have ever displayed any interest in excluding other fans except on the basis of being flipping idiots, a condition which (to the best of my knowledge — I would be interested in hearing contrary theories) utterly independent of race, creed, sexual preference or any other factor than having a brain and refusing to use it.

        Forgive me for suspecting that such a panel as this is actually more about making fandom less inclusive and welcoming, at least of wrong fen.

      • “Are the members of the Black Baptist church convention that just happens to have been at the hotel the same weekend going to give any of their children permission to go to a science fiction convention ever in their lives?”

        It’s been more then 16 years since I last went to a con, but I suspect the answer to that particular question will always be no. Especially if they wander the halls after midnight. My better half never went to a second con.

        • *sigh*

          There really shouldn’t be anything too horrible in the hallways and lobby at mid-day. That’s not to say that there isn’t, just that there ought not to be. If the idea is making people feel welcome and being inclusive then the public day-time areas really ought to be “safe for work and children”.

          “My kids just looooove Narnia!”

          That’s not to say that some people aren’t wound enough that they object to innocent, non-sexualized things. I reserve the right for “adults in the room” to dismiss frivolous complaints and to actually make those judgments.

          I’ve overheard people (Earth Goddess types) going on and on about the sort of prudes that raise repressed and stunted children by making bodies and sex into unnatural activities… in the context of “bondage” artwork in the art show… WTF? Granted, that was quite a few years ago but I’m not talking an art-nude here, but quasi-porn with leashes. Much different than “this is an art show; if you have children be aware there may be nudes”.

          Public areas at mid-day should at least be Family Safe. Or do we NOT want continuing generations of science fiction fans waiting to take our places when we shrivel up and DIE?

        • Actually, DragonCon 2000 ended up sharing the hotel with the Annual Worldwide meeting of the Salvation Army, and a pretty good time was had by all.

          Then came the election and the Left lost its’ collective mind.

    • Short answer: Kill the Sad Puppies!
      Longer: We don’t really want to make it too inclusive, just more inclusive to the people like *us*.

    • Christopher M. Chupik

      Well, the quickest way to make it welcoming and inclusive is to ban all those people we don’t approve of! /sarc

  32. Free-range Oyster

    OT (just got back in town) but wanted to make sure Our Beloved Hostess knew that the promo was in the (e)mail. Let me know if there are sending errors. Carry on!

  33. Captain Comic

    Okay…

    As I said, I don’t twerk (?), but I finally ran down the two OUTRAGE twoot lines and someone over at MHN pointed out Jim Hines wanting me found out and the official Sasquan tweent account responding…

    Sooo…I wandered down to the wrong room and introduced myself and they sent me to a different office and I walked some more and introduced myself again and showed them my tablet and asked ‘sup?

    None of those present knew who used the account for this issue. Had a pleasant enough chat with a con worker who said they basically OK’d the removal because some were “offended” and this year is already tensioned up enough. They also asked if I could stop putting the ribbons out so they wouldn’t have to keep picking them up or accepting them from folks who have.

    They also offered to bring all the gathered ribbons they have collected down tomorrow and return them to me.

    They seemed more tired than offended themselves.

    Anyone headed to DragonCon in two weeks?

    I’d hate to see them go to waste…

    Sarah, anyone come to mind to handle that?

    • I can’t afford to go, but I think Speaker/tedd roberts is going. Email me & I’ll get you in touch.

    • Free-range Oyster

      I’ll be at Salt Lake Comic Con in a month, Larry’s home turf, and I’d love to have some to pass out.

    • Worst case we’ll use them next year. Something tells me they will still be valid

    • Well, on the one hand, I think that you, Captain Comic, were very polite about it. And I’m glad that Concom was reasonably civil.

      OTOH, it’s pretty obvious that Concom is prepared to kowtow to whiny officious people who are offending against other people’s ordinary rights to express themselves, while being perfectly willing to offend fans who are acting within their ordinary rights. Rewarding bad behavior just guarantees more of it.

      And yes, I expect that if you combine officiousness with the usual chance of fan feuds and bad breakups, I’m pretty sure that people will start being magically “offended” by the flyers of conventions run by fans they broke up with, and then the convention flyers will start disappearing for Reasons of Righteous Anger. (Instead of just disappearing in a passive-aggressive way.)

      I gotta say, I’ve been on some concoms that weren’t so great… but they all would have made soothing noises, and then sent a gofer to go put the flyers and ribbons right back on the table. Probably while snickering.

      • Captain Comic

        I can sorta see the point on the puppy ribbon. If I squint. And tilt my head a bit.

        But the Larry ribbon? The ConOpsEr said they were told it seemed an attack on a person.
        p
        I pointed out it was an issue about strawman arguments against Larry Correia who HIMSELF says this. Got a civil shrug and as I said I wasn’t going to escalate.

        But I’ll repeat it one more time:

        How did all this little bit of off-handedness become ALL OF THIS?

  34. I’m a Luddite when it comes to Twitter etc, so I rarely look at the feeds… but it sounds to me like Sasquon is, at the least, endorsing anti-Puppy actions.

    If this is the case, and the No Award slate “wins” the Hugos, will the con provide evidence that they didn’t fix the balloting? Or will they just say they found a couple of bags of votes in someone’s car during a recount?

    • The Hugo Awards vote counters are comprised of persons of moral probity and persons of extreme precision. We’ll be able to see the vote count data pretty soon after the awards ceremony. And yes, everybody who’s looked into it, and Larry Correia too, is sure that Hugo vote counts are accurate and fair.

      It’s an odd thing. Plenty of fans will organize cunning plans and voting blocs and weird systems, but you don’t hear of even the crooked people tampering with actual vote counts and results. I don’t know why. Possibly because we’re just so anal. 🙂

      • I hope you’re right. Never been a part of organized (is that the right word? ;)) fandom, so I’ll be guided by some of the people here.

  35. How could the pamphlet NOT be offensive to those without a sense of humor and their Offended Switch safety-wired in the On-and-Locked position?

  36. Christopher M. Chupik

    And in the File 770 comments, you have various people trying to defend pulling the ribbons. And at least one person trying to defend the ribbons. The usual, in other words.

    • There is no defense for pulling the ribbons. None. These socialist-cock sucking whores who get their good feelings from being lickspittles to totalitarians and suppressing “unapproved” speech are going to be the death of civilization if we don’t stop their insane stunts.
      They should indulge their need for submission in private and leave the rest of us alone.

  37. Captain Comic

    Hand to God, people, I just thought it would be good for a quick giggle and maybe some flushed faces. Mildly pricey, but I got hundreds of them.

    How did it become this?

    Again, Sarah, sorry for disruption in your week.

  38. Nobody saw nuffin
    Nobody did nuffin
    This is how the march through the institutions works.

  39. And the e-arc of the Mission Tomorrow anthology is up at http://www.baenebooks.com/p-2853-mission-tomorrow-earc.aspx, as of 3 AUG 15 in fact, so I guess I’m behind, per usual.

  40. Stream just started, they announced there would be a panel talking about Sad Puppies, With 4 anti-puppy panelists (Scalzi, Martin, Leckie, and one other I missed.)

  41. I see that you’ve gone from being a man to being mostly male. It’s progress, anyway. 😉

  42. I really like how the logo is covering Scalzi’s face. It’s petty, I know.

  43. They announced pre-assigned seating for the Hugos right before dinnertime. No ticket no sitting for you. Not sure why this sudden change. I am going to find alternate source of feed here.

    • If I had known you were there I would have stayed and bought you dinner, instead of grabbing something from the drivethru on my way home.

  44. I wasn’t paying attention. Was that Tananarive Due?

  45. Bjorn Hasseler

    My first con was CapClave 2012, and one of the first things I noticed was badge ribbons. Ribbons are so closely associated with cons in my head that I thought BaltiCon 2015 was a little odd because the place wasn’t swimming in them. Limiting ribbons because someone is offended is censorship. If you disagree with a ribbon, don’t stick it on your name tag. Seriously, how hard it that? (I bummed that I missed getting one of these ribbons at LibertyCon.)

  46. Great… so Gerrold opens with gay jokes after gay jokes…

  47. My son just sent me this Asimov piece:
    http://www.physics.princeton.edu/ph115/LQ.pdf

    I’d never seen it.

  48. Okay, I expect this guy to pull some weird stuff, but why is the entire audience so eager to repeat a Hindu chant they don’t believe in? Cultural appropriation for me but not for thee, while casually forgetting that words have meaning. The electric sheep baa.

  49. Wesley Chu got the Campbell, not Jason. Sorry.

    • Yeah, that’s unfortunate. Jason’s a talent.

      • Christopher M. Chupik

        Chu has the right politics.

        • I despise Chu, but to be fair, he does have talent. He managed to drag me right through all the whiplash between his beliefs and reality in the book, and got me to the end. I didn’t enjoy the book, and will probably never read another one he writes, but he is a good writer… unlike a lot of the other nominations.

  50. Laura Mixon thanks the people who enabled Requires Hate before they stopped enabling her. Yeah… no cognitive dissonance there.

  51. Scratch Laura Mixon as someone I’d read. I haven’t heard anything that bigoted, one-sided, and – frankly – racist in thirty years.

  52. In a petty move, the names of the authors of the Best Related Work nominees were not even read. Oooooooh, me so impressed.

    They’re not reading the names of the dead authors and fans, either, although there is a name crawl. Sad to see that quite a few folks died this year whom the Internet didn’t deign to notice or talk about much.

  53. That was a LOT of applause for “No Awarding” the Related Works category. Their Anti-Puppy scheme is working! *insert SJW shrieking laughter here*

    • Something weird with the sound system and the assigned seating, because frankly, during the whole Livestream, I haven’t been hearing the usual oscillations and changeableness of a Hugo Awards audience, or the preponderance of big guys clapping big hands and making big noises. I am hearing the same corps of women sitting close to the ambient microphones. So yeah, I’m sure there was a lot of inappropriate cheering, but I’m sure there were some boos and disapproving noises that we’re not hearing. Shrug. Not that it matters. Just more typical bafflegab.

      • ” I am hearing the same corps of women sitting close to the ambient microphones.”

        And the seating arrangement change has now been explained.

    • They behaved like petty, dog in the manger adolescent brats?

      I am shocked, shocked.

      Had they displayed a modicum of class or the slightest respect for the fundamental meaning of the award I truly would be surprised.

      • Interestingly, the Standlee et al text commentary notes that they can hear quite a bit of booing for the No Award announcements. So it really is a case of the seating and the mikes.

        • Seats were assigned, nyet?

          If the situation were reversed, anyone imagine the SJWs wouldn’t accuse the con technicians of rigging the sound?

          • Seats were assigned, but the tickets were handed out on a first come first serve basis. I don’t see how there could have been any shenanigans in that respect.

            Well, my prognostication abilities are for crap. I expected some of the No Awards, but actually doing so for Novella & Short Story was something I thought wouldn’t happen. But then it became obvious that everything but the SP nominees were being voted for, so when those shoes dropped I wasn’t as surprised. A little disgusted, but not surprised.

          • There were no assigned seats at any Hugos I attended.

            • My understanding is that the seating arrangements had more to do with the venue than the event. It was a record breaking convention, with more attention and interest in the Hugo ceremony than its had in years. There were fears that there might be an overflow crowd, something which the auditorium theater could not handle. Thus, they wanted to make sure they had a limit on the number of audience members, and handing out tickets for the event was the easiest, most efficient way of doing so.

              There were overflow areas where attendees could go if they didn’t get tickets and watch the live video feed, most notably Guinan’s Place (a lounge area with a cash bar) (I ended up there because the theater seats turned out to be too small for me). Those were open seating, and in any case those who went there probably had more fun (we could should back at the screen!)

        • As I said, now we know why the last minute change on seating. I wouldn’t have bothered, but petty is how they roll.

    • And apparently applause for No Award is acceptable, but not booing.

  54. Yep, and more class as Sheila Gilbert and Toni Weisskopf are No Awarded, just in order to try to “get” Vox Day. Which of course Vox takes as a victory.

    • No award in the editor category when Toni Weisskopf is up for award. Really.

      Time to burn?

      • Also note that a post on the Bar said Toni had previously walked out of the ceremony.

        • Free-range Oyster

          That’s… wow. I’ve met Toni a couple of times; she is one of the most gracious and considerate professionals I’ve ever encountered. If she felt she needed to leave, that seems an ill portent to me. I may be reading too much in (I do that when sleep-deprived), but this looks to be a black day for fandom.

    • I can’t recall ever observing proglodytes, as a group, display class toward someone not of their tribe.

      Did they show class or respect when Reagan died? When Thatcher died? When Ford died?

      Pick any conservative (okay, I’m bending that for Jerry Ford) public figure of the last half century who has died and proglodytes exhibited an utter absence of class. At best they restrained themselves because they recognized that venting their true emotions would reveal their miserable shrunken souls.

      The only times I have ever seen proglodytes speak well of a deceased conservative has been to criticize a living conservative in comparison.

  55. I would have voted for the Artist at least since I like her Art Nouveau Mucha style.

  56. A preview of what the Hugo will be for the next few decades.

    And the SJWs don’t even see it.

  57. remember that to no-award a category does not require that no award have more votes than anyone else, it only requires that it have >25% of the votes.

    • David: Incorrect. It’s preference ballot. If No Award doesn’t have 50+1 on round 1, it still has to get there as other nominees are eliminated.

      So unless all the categories are “X or Nothing!”, they were probably 50%+1 no award from the beginning.

      • Ok, I was remembering things wrong. but there is a specific no-award test, it’s not just like any other vote

        The No Award Test

        The final check before a winner can be determined is known as the No Award Test. The valid ballots are divided into three piles: those in which No Award is ranked higher than the prospective winner (PW), those in which the prospective winner is ranked higher than No Award, and those in which neither No Award nor the prospective winner have preferences listed. Note that a ballot that contains a preference for the prospective winner but does not contain a preference for No Award goes into the “prospective winner higher than no award” pile. This is because lack of preference is, by definition, lower than any preference. Having got the three piles, the votes in the “prospective winner higher than No Award pile” and the votes in the “No Award higher than prospective winner” pile are counted. If the number of votes with the prospective winner placed higher is greater then the result is confirmed. If the pile with No Award placed higher is greater then no award is given in the category that year.

        It’s important that you realize that we count the ballot at this stage if the prospective winner is ranked OR No Award is ranked. You don’t have to rank them both. The only ballots that don’t count here are those that rank neither the PW nor NA. To put it another way:

        If the PW ranks higher than No Award (or the PW is ranked and NA isn’t mentioned), count this as a YES vote for the PW.
        If No Award ranks higher than the PW (or NA is ranked and the PW isn’t mentioned), count this as a NO vote against the PW.
        If neither the PW nor No Award is listed, this is a blank ballot and doesn’t count at all.

        Total the YES and NO votes. If YES wins, the PW is confirmed. If NO wins, then No Award wins.

        • Yeah. The No Award test is because you can easily have a situation in honest balloting where no one lists No Award first, but one or more nominees are ranked below NA on a a majority of ballots, and they cared about who comes 2nd.

          The fact that I don’t consider it a possible cause of this case explains my opinion on the balloting adequately.

  58. Mr. Gerrold tells the audience that booing (at the No Award for Best Short Story) is inappropriate. So I guess there really is quite a lot of booing going on. And there are some classy people out there, but they’re in the wrong place to be appreciated.

    In other news, Vox Day continues to win, and Sad Puppies continues to make its point.

    • I fail to see why booing no award is inappropriate. Now certainly if they announced a winner and you started booing that author it would be rude. But to show disappointment that the slash and burn campaign was successful is another matter entirely.

      • I fail to see where David Gerrold has shown the class, the gravitas, the standing to define what is appropriate.

        He has long since demonstrated his mastery of the inappropriate behaviour.

  59. Wait, that world turned upside down bowl of excrement wasn’t written by a 12-year old girl?

    • Twelve year old girls would have written a nice story about ponies and princesses in an upside-down world, probably including a lot of heroic actions and drama. I was a twelve-year-old girl, and I know.

      • You’re right, my comparison what completely unfair to 12-year old girls and I apologize. Call me old-fashioned, but if your story involves putting a goldfish into a glass of acidified sugar solution saturated with CO2 and the fish doesn’t die, you aren’t writing science fiction. There’s more science in an IPCC report,.

    • Just Wait for the sequel! “The Floor is Lava!”

    • Waggles hand. ALLEGEDLY not.

      • 12-year old girls exist in all ages and arrangements of genitalia.

        I understand we may have one as C-in-C of this nation.

  60. So the SJWs bloc voted for anyone not associated with the Puppies. Lovely.

    There are two solutions – scrap the Hugo, ignore it, and let them rot. Or completely swamp the nominating process (as almost happened this year) and make them “No Award” for a decade or so until they get it through their heads that we want good books, not sermons.

    • Or grow the voting pool so that their bloc cannot force a No Award. Which has been the plan all along.

      • I dunno, they did have a HUGE number of ballots cast for the actual award, and so perhaps the SJW’s WERE sufficiently motivated to burn everything down.

        • We’ll see when the vote numbers are released. I do think this is why they delayed the vote on the E pluribus proposal until tomorrow, they wanted the outcome (either a bunch of NA or a bunch of “outsider” wins would serve their purposes) to create a sense of “something must be done” and E pluribus is something.

        • I am very curious to see if the margin was within the margin of admitted mass-vote buying.

        • Or maybe… just maybe… Not everyone who voted was an SJW and the stuff that was nominated by the puppies wasn’t that good?

          Couldn’t possibly be that, though, could it? That would mean…

          • No. Last year, Toni Weisskopf came in second for editor. She had 384 1st place votes, and there were 1545 total votes, only 140 No Award.

            This year, Toni was again in second, below no award. She started with 1216 first place votes, but suddenly there were 2496 No Award votes.

            There is no question that that category was intentionally burned down. Nor any of the other No Award categories. The numbers scream an organized effort to burn the whole thing down.

            • clark e myers

              Hugo voting is artfully designed to disallow plurality wins. The No Award count is not so much high no award votes but inferred preferences from a lack of support.

              Many people find the Hugo voting system (called “Instant Runoff Voting“) very complicated. While the process is indeed involved, the basic idea is simple and the intention is laudable. Basically the idea is to make sure that the winner has majority support. In ordinary governmental elections it is possible for the winner to be someone that 40% of the people like and 60% of the people hate, because that 60% could not agree amongst themselves on a candidate. The Hugo voting system is designed to avoid results like that.

              A social choice mechanism that attempts to evade Arrow’s Impossibility Theorem a couple of ways – not being independent of irrelevant alternatives in a way or more clearly simply failing to make a choice as an alternative expression of no award. I’m not going to say clear now? but reviewing the explanation and going through the iterations with pencil and paper should make it clear – again no plurality wins is the intent.

              • What’s a plurality win?

                • clark e myers

                  Plurality win is the most votes for a single candidate but shy of a majority. That’s actually the common pattern for popular votes in the United States owing to third party and odd ball voting. One of the reasons and justifications for the Electoral College as a hangover when the country moved in the direction of direct election. Vote counts in the Electoral College are pretty explicit.

                  Ways of dealing with plurality voting and proportional representation creates issues especially in parliamentary bodies. Proportional representation and multiple party lines on the ballot systems in New York and other multi-party polities may avoid a tyranny of the majority but may not. There have been endless successions of short lived governments at times in Italy – along with the economy the Greek government is in interesting shape and there are almost always some rather odd coalitions in the Knesset.

                  This significance in the current circumstances is that Toni would have won with the most votes in a single iteration election but lost in the current Hugo system.

                  This despite more people supporting Toni than any other single candidate. I wouldn’t have strapped my guns on over this but in the spirit of Hank I would have been tempted to display a sword.

                  I haven’t looked closely at E Pluribus Hugo or 4 and 6 suggestions. I have looked at results annotated with (s) for sad and (r) for rabid. It’s not amusing to see folks vote against instead of for something else when it’s all in fun.

                  I also suggest going to bed but plans for the business meeting and E Pluribus Hugo are being made, some in public with number crunching including counts of puppy nominations and votes, truefen nominations and votes and no dog in this fight nominations and votes, even as I type – and I’m too hyped to get to sleep myself. More sad than mad though.

                  I suggest that folks who like to read might look at Jared Diamond Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed (also titled Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Survive for pictures of societies destroying themselves fighting over a shrinking pie – commonly known as bad luck.

                  Not just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic but playing musical chairs as though denying deck chairs to others trumps allocating life jackets and life boats to say nothing of getting assistance to bring more life boats and life jackets.

                • winning with less than a simple majority. ie a winner with 49% of the vote.

            • “organized effort to burn the whole thing down.”

              Well, that doesn’t sound anything like the puppy platform.

              • You’re right; it doesn’t. We were the ones asking to give our nominees a chance when people were gloating about not reading any of the nominees.

              • Yeah, because the SP side was the one saying “Read all the entries and vote for the best one” unlike the kickers who bragged about not reading anything and voting NA. but then again, demanding good stories first no matter the message is too much to ask these days. But then again the same NA voting folks like to tell us Baen is only rightwing authors and folks like Spider Robinson, Misty Lackey, and Eric Flint certainly don’t count because being far left and outright communist in Flint’s case, is to be ignored for some reason, even if they might could write a good to great story. Keep pushing y’all’s message first and only, because it will be as successful as, say, the latest release from TorUK. Oh, wait.
                Also, learn to troll with a bit more skill (practice makes perfect only if you practice correctly), most folks here can get more out of a C$C snark than you get from this.
                Even sillier is you and your clique are doing EXACTLY what Larry said you would if we got more people to vote and they were not “The Right Kind Of People” and your side denied that would ever happen. I’m sure he thanks you for, again, and again, proving his point for him. By the book, y’all did what he predicted. Not that predicting it takes much work. The same playbook is used over and over, and over . . .

                • Thank you for confirming my suspicions. His first post sounded trollish, but two ‘polite with twisting barbs’ comments did seem excessive. It gives me a new sort of grudging respect for the File770 minions posting in the last month. At least they self-identified.

              • What, pray tell, do you say the puppy platform sounds like?

                Because as I understand it, the puppies (sad and rabid) were calling for greater recognition of quality SF driven by plot and character (you know, the kind people buy.) The puppies wanted more fan participation in an award supposedly representing fandom. Don’t see anything there about burning anything down.

                The only call to destroy the Hugos came people wanting the puppies kicked out.

            • clark e myers

              Maybe so intentionally burned down. Folks are going to stop speaking to each other over this result among others. Then again, most people who’ve been around the block know that one cost of a World Con bid is that folks who have been friends, and often want to be friends, will never again be friends.

              FREX A.J. Budrys could honestly be described as a heck of a nice guy and a master of paying forward yet so could some of his enemies. Idaho folks would of course be inclined to assume the worst of the other side in those wars we never fought. Beware roid rage doubly so when Con Crud may get treated with drugs. Anything strong enough to help you is by definition strong enough to hurt you – hungry, angry, lonely or tired are all known to lead to bad judgement.

              On reflection perhaps a better explanation of the voting is that the system tries to achieve a weight for cardinal preference in a way as well as ordinal.

              There was a double peaked preference pattern for Toni in which enough people voted her high to do as well as she did, Some whose preference was an award given when somebody else was in first place was no award if Toni’s name was first. IMHO frankly a nasty way to go but no surprise.

              The very last iterative count is high vote count against no award. The high number of no award votes surfaced because they effectively climbed on the respective ballots as choices above no award were eliminated. No award did not win on the the first ballot and stayed in the race as names higher than no award on the respective ballots were eliminated and removed from the race – thus bringing no award to the top of the ballots that didn’t actually support Toni.

              Long long time ago I was talking to a Hugo winner, and my favorite filk performer, about the death of Moscon and we agreed that like most human endeavors Con’s have a limited lifespan. I won’t even think about KC and certainly not Helsinki.

              • depending on what ends up passing at the business meeting, you may find a lot more people opting to attend KC just to vote against (or potentially for) the changes.

              • It’s kind of obvious that they picked Helsinki to try to exclude less-wealthy American fans. The hoi polloi, in other words. I’m guessing the rules change they will go for is to disallow voting by e-mail or mail, or they will first count the e-mail and mail ballots then pay for enough ballots at the convention to swamp them with No Award if necessary.

            • Note the significant increase in votes cast — proof of the Puppy Presence.

              Note how few votes were actually cast, even with the surge in voting. Proves two things: Hugos represent fandom as a whole the same way the New England Patriots represent football fandom as a whole … and swamping the awards next time ought be easy — the SJWs went Full Retard this year and barely topped a couple thousand votes.

              The Puppies have far more room to grow their vote. The SJWs? meh.

              • There were twice as many no award votes than votes for Toni. More than half of the votes in the category were No Award. That was sheer mob violence against the category. And they’re proud of it. They’ll do it again.

          • Let me amend that, she was second in the first round in 2014. It went downhill from there.

            • Let me amend your amendment. Last year, Toni had the most first place votes (384 to 359). She lost because a lot of people who didn’t list Toni first had her no better than 4th.

          • You proved that most people who voted voted an ant9i-puppy slate. Did you even read the nominees?

          • How much of the Puppy pushed prose did you read? Do you want to defend an assertion none of it was good?

            Do you want to argue Butcher didn’t deserve recognition?

            In the face of an active movement to vote “No Award” without reading nominated works pushed by one side only. It requires a sincere logical fallacy to argue the “No Award” balloting represented a judgement on the quality of the nominated works.

    • Needless to say, we’re going for COMPLETELY swamp.

    • Also they badgered any “like minded” person who got on the SP “slate” into refusing the awards. Can’t have the wrong sorts say “You know, this is a good story” … That’d be horrible, that.

  61. I predicted this. If the progs can’t control an institution for their own benefit, they destroy it so no one else can benefit either.

    • It could be argued that they really weren’t benefiting either: this award has been a “scarlet letter” for some years now, a warning for the average fan to avoid this work; to some, it’s even been a warning to avoid SF&F. Of course, they are likely blind to this…

  62. And when David Gerrold goes home tonite, he still won’t be able to type a lick.

  63. I begin to expect our esteemed convention committee may not have been as impartial as claimed.

    • No, given the last minute nature of the change, there was probably some kind of No Award movement at the convention — grabbing people who hadn’t intended to vote and encouraging/pressuring them to fill out their ballots the shortest way possible (ie, No Award). People do a lot of thoughtless things at Worldcon parties.

  64. All I can say to the final results is “TOLERANCE!” and “We must include more wimmen” (but not Toni Weisskopf)

    oh… and there’s this really predatory grin on my face as I think of next year after watching the, gloat.

  65. Wow.

    Editor, I guess I expected — it’s a low voting category.

    But Short Story?? There were at least two really excellent stories. I wonder how many of the No Award voters even read them.

    • None. They bragged on Twitter about not reading SP stories.
      We’re up against the Know Nothings. I’m fine with that. I’m not fine with them claiming intellectual superiority. I say we make them EAT it.

    • On the plus side, it is outside the margin of vote buying.

      http://www.thehugoawards.org/content/pdf/2015HugoStatistics.pdf

      Lets hope this stays readable….

      Looking at the “no puppy supported works, no way, no how”, as a percentage of ballots cast….

      Category No Pup Ballots %
      Novel 2674 5653 47.3%
      Novella 3495 5337 65.5%
      Novellette 3089 5104 60.5%
      Short 3053 5267 58.0%
      Related 3259 4901 66.5%
      Ed., Short 2672 4850 55.1%
      Ed., long 2496 4907 50.9%

      • On the — are you sh*tting me — side, note the ridiculously low number attributed as a vote to KJA and Butcher. By themselves they’re prima facia evidence something is rotten in the vote counting/disqualifying whatever. No, seriously. The others? Debatable. Those two? It stinks, I tell you.

        • Another point of interest: how many No Award voters couldn’t even be bothered to rank the others at all (not even a second place). looks like… 10-12%, quick estimate. That to me suggests the possibility that a lot of members who normally wouldn’t vote did so because while voting 5 novellas fairly takes hours, no awarding them all takes seconds.

          I’m not as surprised at the low totals for Butcher & KJA – while not considered a Puppy novel, Vox praised 3-Body highly and had it first on his stated ballot, which is likely the reason why it won given the 200 vote margin; a quarter of the 3-Body votes went to Skin game and KJA in the 2nd place calculations.

          • Doh, left out something key there… Of the No Awarders, typically 10-12% DID bother to vote after No Award; 88%ish just went No Award and moved on.

      • I still have a little trouble reading those charts and figuring out what the ballots feeding into them looked like exactly.

        • clark e myers

          I thought it easy enough to follow the balloting given a review of the voting process and a look at the iterations as discussed in the voting for successive places. Certainly the final results without understanding the iterative process don’t give a picture of the ballots.

          I am reminded of Charles Lutwidge Dodgson, (who might have qualified for a SFFWA membership though he made only 2 major sales; maybe dramatic presentations would have added enough points and he has been accused of odd interests so extra points?) who was an acknowledged expert on voting systems.

          Oddly enough he introduced successive improvements in voting systems at the high table of his college such that successive improvements gave altered results that matched his own preferences.

          The nominating and voting process here is complex and may yet be changed. The Dodgson story is most easily accessed in Duncan Black’s textbook.

        • Looking at Best novel….

          You can’t know all the ballots exactly, but you can do some.

          Straight out, looking only at who was 1st on each ballot:
          Position 1, Pass 1
          3BP 1691
          GE 1515
          AS 1054
          SG 874
          NA 268
          DBS 251
          No vote 0

          Dark Between the Stars is lowest, so those votes get eliminated, and reassigned to others (1st column from the PDF, 2nd column a calculation):
          Total | Change
          3BP 1727 | 36
          GE 1544 | 29
          AS 1082 | 28
          SG 1004 | 130
          NA 271 | 3
          DBS n/a | n/a
          No vote 25 | 25
          Total change | 251

          So a little over half the votes for DBS went to Skin Game, with the rest going relatively evenly to the other titles or to no title.

          Position 2, pass 1 is different: for second place, 3-Body Problem is removed from the ballot, So you have a new base ballot which shows us who was in 2nd place for those that voted 3-Body first:
          Position 2, pass 1
          Total | Change
          3BP |
          GE 2051 | 536
          AS 1615 | 561
          SG 1264 | 390
          NA 339 | 71
          DBS 314 | 63
          No vote 70 | 70
          Total change | 1691

          It gets trickier the deeper you go into the ballot, but that’s how I’m coming to numbers.

  66. Well, by retweets, this is one of my most popular tweets ever:

    “In #HugoAwards the #SadPuppies set the bait, painted the word “BAIT” on it, the SJW’s bit and are now celebrating being hooked.”

    • Yeah. And I thought I didn’t care, but I find the NOVEL numbers unbelievable and that’s BUGGING me.

      • 3,000 nuclear no-award-the-puppies voters; and you have no idea how many people ranked Dark and Skin Game second or third.

      • Well as puppy voter I have to say, I only voted for the top three in the novel category, I didn’t put No Award on the ballot, but neither did I put KJA or Butcher. I found their novels so bad I couldn’t finish them (actually in Butcher’s case, I was happy to have only an excerpt, because then I didn’t feel as obligated to finish it before voting), still they are both extremely popular authors, so the vote count is a little surprising.

        The only No Award I put on the ballot was in fifth place in the novelette category, above The Day The World Turned Upside Down, because IMHO that story was so bad it needed nuked from orbit. Of course we can all see how well my tastes coincide with those of other readers.

        • I didn’t vote in all categories, just the ones I could read/view completely. Since my reading speed isn’t what it used to be, and I don’t see many movies or TV shows, I had to skip several of the major categories.

          For the categories in which I voted, my first choice won exactly once, and my fourth choices won twice.

  67. clark e myers

    At least this year I’m inclined to go with what is said of the Oscars. Long form editor nominations are meaningful – perhaps especially any surprisingly low counts. Actual awards are a toss up.

    I had planned to attend hoping to see Vandals and Moscow Moffia for the geographic convenience but when I didn’t find their names on the website I didn’t bother. I guess I’ll gafiate. Before I go let me just mention that Jerry’s then computer once sent me a copy of Melissa the virus – top that folks.

    Word from G.R.R. Martin’s loser’s party is claiming more joy than I think the folks are entitled to or would properly feel after consideration.

  68. Am I the only one embarrassed for the folks at the podium? I mean, Connie Willis, author of my second favorite book ever (Bellwether) dragged into that tantrum? She has her own section on my shelves, for heaven’s sake. Tananarive Due having to go through ‘No award’ how many times? I really like (most) of her books. (Her husband’s are nothing to sneeze at either.)

    It was like catching a favorite aunt at an orgy. I just feel bad for them.
    —-
    Plan C for the next Hugos – figure out which books the SJWs will fawn over (a little mountain on the spine would be a good indicator), very publicly endorse and slate nominate them, and watch the SJWs either No Award their own favorites or seethe while puppies take credit for ‘their’ books winning. If they’re going to take their marbles and go home, make them eat the marbles.

  69. clark e myers

    First approximation says 500 rabid, 500 sad, and 2500 solid Noah Ward with more swing to some No Award than swing to include some puppy support.

    I expect more push to at least find somebody to vote for next year. I expect that push to fail.

    I suppose Tom Kratman can find amusement in the kerfuffle – and he writes about Noahs who poison intellect in his most popular series. The No Awards aren’t my kind of fan but I expect the numbers to hold up next year.

    • Gee, I think I am going to side with VD on this one. Spend the next 2-3 years NO AWARDing everything. Perhaps the SJWs will loose interest in the Hugos and things can get back to right by 2020.

    • We’ll see. SP3 was planned around the idea that the No Award block from last year would show up for the nominations. They didn’t. They might next year, or they might not.

  70. The conclusion I came to long before the awards results was that the idea of taking dozens if not hundreds of works and arbitrarily deciding upon one as “better” than all other is completely stupid, especially when—as this drama proves—what makes a work “good” in people’s minds varies from person to person.

    To be frank, I was largely neutral on the matter, and that let me see perhaps why people so whole-heartedly embrace extremism on either side: standing in the middle gives you a great view of just how many people have their heads up their asses on both sides. At least the Puppies were FAR more acknowledging of the people with their heads up their asses, and the people who infuriated me most (as an aspiring author who is a lesbian) were the people who desperately tried to frame it as a war against those horrible bigoted Puppies by not acknowledging the existence and/or identity of female/PoC/LGBT Puppies—the people who claimed to be fighting for people like them were spitting on them for nothing other than “wrongthink”.

    What really struck me about last night was how the hysteria of who has the god-given right to annoint a work as “best” led to people rejoicing that they were able to refuse merit to authors, editors, and others who had committed the atrocity of having had the wrong people think they were worthy of an award. The people who were supposedly against slates had voted in near-lockstep to an anti-Puppy slate that was made mere minutes after the nominations were announced. And in response to this, the anti-Puppy crowd said simply that, clearly, works that didn’t deserve a Hugo just didn’t get one.

    Because clearly they are the only ones whose opinions on “good” works counts.

    I don’t care if it’s Hoyt, Torgersen, or even goddamn Vox Day. I don’t care if it’s even someone who was among the worst of the anti-Puppies shitting on all of the women, LGBT people, and PoC they pretended didn’t exist. Whoever declares their intentions to burn the goddamn Hugos down to the ground gets my vote. It’s plain and obvious that it’s nothing more than a useless fucking popularity contest. The SF/F fandom deserves something that celebrates many works and people instead of just the specific ones that the self-imposed elite (whoever they may be) think is worthy. The SF/F fandom deserves something that celebrates diversity in the fandom—diversity of works, diversity of tastes, diversity of authors in not just race/sexuality/gender but personal and political views.

    Or maybe, after seeing the hysteria and celebration from those I consider normally thoughtful and reasonable people, the SF/F fandom doesn’t deserve jack fucking shit.

  71. Christopher M. Chupik

    A pair of telling quotes:

    “Phil Sandifer ‏@PhilSandifer · 6h6 hours ago

    Phil Sandifer retweeted FreedomFighter #2027
    I admit to voting exclusively authors whose politics do not utterly repel me. #HugoAwards”

    and

    “Phil Sandifer ‏@PhilSandifer · 4h4 hours ago

    Phil Sandifer retweeted Supperdude9
    Politics is a form of quality. Effing morons.”

  72. On the bright side, no award does answer my major complaint with the Hugos over the last few years. Why is such crap winning awards? At least I will not have to waste any money or time accidentally buying their socialist crap because it was an ‘award winner’.

    • It does make it fairly obvious that the Tor Clique is real, and that it believes that it OWNS the awards to the point that it is willing to blot-out whole categories rather than see them awarded to the “wrong” books. And we should consider something:

      There were writers who spent their time sucking up to the Tor Clique and whoring out their art to make it acceptable to them, who have done so for years, who didn’t get “their” Hugos because of our campaign. If we keep doing this, year after year, at a minimum we deprive the Clique of one of their prizes.

    • Christopher M. Chupik

      They were incredibly smug about No Awards winning over the past week, so it’s entirely possible they co-ordinated behind the scenes.

  73. Christopher M. Chupik

    And this made me stop reading Black Gate Magazine:

    https://www.blackgate.com/2015/08/23/dear-puppies-your-taste-sucks/

    BG used to be one of my favorite blogs, before John O’Neill came out of the political closet. But my taste sucks, remember?

    • ensure they know that since your taste sucks, and they used to be a regular favorite, that you will take their critique to heart and ensure everyone knows that your ‘favorite’ is not to be read any longer because it obviously stinks.

  74. Hopefully the nominations will never be this bad.

    Found via Ace of Spades Sunday Book post.

  75. And here’s a link to Ace’s.

  76. Paul (Drak Bibliophile) Howard

    Unleash The Hell-Hound Bitches!!!!!!

    IE Sad Puppies 4 (should be renamed Angry Puppies).

    Very Very Very Pissed Off

  77. Captain Comic

    I was there.

    When Cambell winner went on about TOResa and her husband being so great and how she and her friends just wanted to bring attention to “marginalized” people who only wanted to be seen as “fully human”, it took a certain amount of effort to avoid screaming “Bullshit, you chorfing CHORF!”

    And then all the good and proper citizens of Airstrip One whooped and hollered at the first victory for Noah…

    I quitetly muttered (loud enough for my friend to hear, though) “F*** you one, f*** you all.”

    I MAY have been a bit disappointed last night.