No More Cringing Now

You know, the slow-mo disaster on the link I posted (About the British Veteran who escaped nursing home with medals to go attend D-Day celebrations in France) continued, with someone else coming to yell at me for sharing a link from UKIP. Now, to my knowledge, UKIP isn’t Britain First and vice versa. I also know next to nothing about UKIP and very slightly more than that about Britain First.  Nor do I propose to spend my time researching it. After all, British parties are British parties. I can’t vote on them. What I hear about them is filtered through their papers and ours.

Two things I do know, before I get to the main point of this post:

1-      I’ve seen Portuguese parties referred to here as “far right” which are in fact undefinable in the American spectrum. What passes for “far right” in Portugal is, economically social-democrat, if not socialist. It’s also morally extremely social-conservative with overtones of heavy Catholic enforcement. Now, several things about that squeak me (pretty much all of it, actually, which is why when I was in Portugal, I voted monarchist, because they had no chance. It was a “none of the above” vote.) but NONE OF THEM fit into American politics. We have socialists and we have socons, but the two don’t normally unite (save in a fringe of the Democratic party. Yes, I’ve met some.) America simply doesn’t have a “right wing” like Europe’s “right wing.” Heck, I’m not sure “Right wing” translates between various countries in Europe. (More on that later.)

2-      Any American presuming to know anything about any other country’s politics, their implications and their substratum, at a remove, filtered through two sets of fairly left wing media (I’m not guessing you know, 90% of them vote for the most socialist slate they can find. And the left tends to be more uniform across countries than the right (or what gets called right in the local lingo). That’s because they’re internationalist (at least in their own minds. More on that later, too.) is about as well informed as when Europeans presume to advise us on our politics and living conditions. (Yes, I know, a lot of people take the European scolding for gospel. This is a strain that has run in American culture from the beginning, but it is now dumber than ever. Do you even realize most other countries don’t get how our country is organized, or the difference between federal government and state? That all of them, pretty much (except maybe China) are incapable of understanding the vastness of the US? Or the cultural variation state to state? I find it hilarious to have my brother admonish me on our uniform culture “you only have one cheese and one type of bread” when that’s almost 100% true of Portugal, unless you have tons of money, and has no application here. Or when he tells me about how frightful our crime rate is. Guys, I’ve left my car unlocked in the driveway, with my purse in it (because stupid) and found it intact in the morning. In Portugal… Let’s not go there. But see, those crimes aren’t reported, because the police is on the take, so in the end, their statistics look better.) I’m not saying no country can know anything about another country, I’m saying what we know is often very wrong. The US believed Soviet self-released statistics until the whole caboodle collapsed.

Okay, those points are disposed of. Let’s now move on to the meat of this post.

I’m sick and tired of people coming along and flinging poo and everyone cringing and distancing themselves. You know exactly what I mean: calling someone a Nazi, or homophobic, or anti-woman.

Larry has got tarred with that, and I’ve got tarred with that. Why, some idiot Twattertwitter guessed my entire politics from my national origin and (her presumption about) my age (I’m actually about 20 years younger than she thought. In fact, closer to her own age than she thought. This was arrived at by a process akin to reading tea leaves. All this while I make absolutely no secret of my political orientation which is “that government governs best which governs least” and also “Don’t tread on me.” Which immediately invalidated her clever-idiot presumption that I was a “Nazi” (That this was said by someone from Germany is just the ironic irony jam on the irony cake.)

But see, she probably (I presume. Unless German education cooks brains in their case) doesn’t believe that. It’s probably impossible to be that stupid and that unable to do any research at all. She just thought that if she called me a bad enough name, I’d shut up and stop calling her on her bullshit.

This is the same thing that the people who came on my facebook page wanted. “Oh, Americans don’t know much about British parties. I’ll say these people are just like Hitler. They’ll apologize for even mentioning them, and they’ll cringe in my presence forever more.”

There is a time it would have worked. It’s not that far distant. In my school days, it would have worked immediately and I’d have shut up SO fast. But even in more recent days it almost worked.

Anyone else who remembers the blog that shall not be named, whose owner lost his mind in the blog wars, will know that his first sign of dementia was to start sniffing out guilt-by-association and looking for signs of “racism” and “white supremacy.”

Some of the things he found out almost kind of made sense. If you talk right wing in Northern Europe, you’re going to find a lot of people with vaguely fascist (of the “attended same class” type) associations. Oh, you’ll find them on the left, too, but no one talks about it.

At that point in his descent into madness, I was cringing and thinking “But I liked that blog. Oh, no. What’s wrong with me?”

Do you know what stopped it? His post on the Celtic cross. I kid you not. This man went through archives of photographs and every time one showed a Celtic cross knickknack or jewelry or whatever, he decided they were part of a mega white-power conspiracy extending across Europe.

I might have bought that, but for two things: first, I was raised in Europe. The Celtic cross is mostly a symbol that you’re bookish and a bit of a romantic (in the literary sense) and want to have something that looks classy and old. Second, I belong to the science fiction community. Our tables at cons are filled with celtic cross stuff of assorted descriptions. In fact, when he published that post, I’d been hankering for a silver celtic-cross pair of earrings I did not have the money to buy at a con the weekend before. And last I’d checked, SF/F whatever the Social Justice Whiners with their Glittery Hoo Has say, is NOT nor has it been for at least seventy years even slightly tainted with white supremacy, let alone a hot bed of it.

At that point I started realizing how tenuous that bloggers hold on reality – and the connections he was making – were.

And since then I’ve been very suspicious of any tarring by association.

First of all because when you tar Americans with being “right wing” in the foreign sense, you have no clue what you’re talking about. If you think you do, you’ve just proven your own ignorance. Go soak your head.

Second, because guilt by association is crazy-making. Look, like Joseph Stalin, I was born in a foreign country and worked in a white collar position. We were/are both married and had kids. Worse, the country was in Europe. And what’s more, neither of us liked/likes aristocracy of birth. Does this mean I’m responsible for the hundred thousands of deaths accounted to Stalin? Oh, please. Go soak your head.

Third – This never gets applied equally. For instance no one calls the left on the fact that their still lionized hero, FDR, was less than a ha’porth of opinion away from Hitler. He believed in eugenics, had issues with Jews (no? What do you think of all the ships turned away?) and was convinced the State should be the ultimate arbiter of everything. Nor do Democrats get called on the fact that during the DNC in 12 they were proudly proclaiming “Everyone must belong to something, so the state is something we all belong to.” In fact, “All within the State, nothing outside the State” – Benito Mussolini, loud and proud. Now, there’s something to cringe about. (And by the way, they can “belong” to whatever they want to. I’m a free citizen, thank heavens. The authority of the state comes from me, not the other way around.) If you think the left doesn’t have feet made of as much clay as the right (in any country), you can google people who supported Hitler until he fought with Stalin, and find all the icons of the left. I have read primary sources about both wars. If you think the left didn’t go overboard for Hitler until they found a bigger butcher wasn’t tainted with pretty much the same sins as the right of the time, you’re ignorant, go soak your head.

Fourth if you poke around in anyone’s life – ANYONE’s – you’ll find some association that is repulsive if not downright criminal. This is because we’re humans associating with other humans, all of us broken in several ways. For instance, we once barely escaped meeting a would-be terrorist, because I had a migraine and we skipped out on a dinner party. Our friends were friends with this Arab couple, and wanted to introduce us because, you know, immigrants. The Monday after that Saturday the couple were arrested for plotting to bomb something or other. There are things you don’t know about even authors you madly admire. Because people can be great authors and capable of horrible stuff in their private lives and if we only read books by saints, we’d have maybe three books to read. As this blogger at Tor found out. Now does this make the blogger at Tor endorse pedophilia? Hardly. She’s glittery and dim and thinks that history started when she says it did, but unless I knew more about her, I’d never accuse her of something that heinous. So when you try to accuse people of horrible crimes by association, look to your own glass houses. If you think you don’t have them, you’re mentally slow. Go soak your head.

Choose your associations carefully – and for that I mean REAL associations, not echoing someone’s facebook meme. For the love of heaven, I’ve echoed some from the hard left because the meme was CUTE. 99.9% of the people never look at the originator, only at the meme – and be aware that in all good there’s evil intermixed. And when people try to fling poo and tar you with heinous crimes by association, tell them the truth: “I am responsible for that which I explicitly endorse, that which I do, and that which I support that brought evil on others. I am not evil because I believe differently from you, nor do I accept other people are evil just because they disagree with you. Cringing is over. Defend your ideas and your opinions openly in the full light of day, or go soak your head.”

Oh, yeah.  And grow up already. Being grown up is messy, and confusing, and you’ll objectively like people who are very bad, and dislike people you should like, and all your best judgements will be sneered at by history  and by scholars yet unborn who — if they care about you at all — will call you names.  You are not, and will never be omniscient, let alone omnipotent.  And nothing in this world is perfect.

That’s a lesson most of us learn three years out of the nursery, if that late.  It’s time you learned it.

380 responses to “No More Cringing Now

  1. “you only have one cheese and one type of bread”

    I can’t stop laughing… oh, my.

    • Well, I’ll admit to having a hard time finding good French bread in America. When I do find a bakery that makes French bread right, it’s always an hour’s drive (or more!) away from where I live, making it impractical to have French bread for breakfast.

      But hey, the fact is that I could find it. In multiple cities, even. And my friend who’s been to Germany several times and really likes German bread can get his bread cravings fulfilled at his local supermarket.

      • One reason good french bread is hard to find in America is that many localities have regulations which preclude it, such as requiring bread be sold in sealed plastic bags which trap moisture and prevent the bread maturing properly. Many folk have managed to develop workarounds on this, such as plastic bags that do breathe and allow moisture to transpire.

        Also, because bread is a result of complex bio-organic interactions the local humidity and ambient yeast cultures are just two factors which will affect the process. Simply following a recipe will not guarantee consistent results, much less success.

        • I thought that good German pumpernickel and good German rye are pretty widely available in the US. (Granted, I live in a town with a lot of German ethnicity.) Is there a significant difference between the US idea of “German bread” and the German idea of German bread?

          I mean, I know there are five zillion different varieties of bratwurst in the Teutonosphere, but I still can’t accept that Wisconsin kind….

          • Should German Bread be crusty? That is the biggest problem with the regulatory requirements* that bread be put in a bag immediately on coming out of the oven. Because Germans were (and may still be) the single largest ethnic group that settled in the US their traditional bread standards may predate regulatory codes governing the topic and thus have been grandfathered in.

            It should be acknowledged that in many communities the problems with the regulations have been recognized and it is now possible to buy bread that is packed in a paper bag, a cellophane bag or even sold with accompanying plastic bag for storage at home once the bread has had a day to mature.

            *I do not actually know if these are the requirements; all of this is based on observation and vague memories of articles read a couple decades ago. What I actually know about bread making could be spread on a Ritz cracker and still leave edges bare.

      • When I ten we moved into Center City Philadelphia, and I became horribily spoiled. Between my house and the school I could, depending on how I routed, walk past a number of bakeries and delis. I still fondly recall the sour cherry strudel available at the Swiss bakery. The sandwiches on sour rye and barrel pickles at one particular kosher deli were delightful. The French bakery had to bring in the proper flours in order to bake their breads. The smell, the tooth, the memories, sigh

    • BobtheRegisterredFool

      We even have fake bread and fake cheese for people who can’t handle the real stuff.

      • o my, yes. And cheese products, too.

        Years ago, I worked at one of the first Mexican restaurants in our area. One time the manager, in order to cut food costs, had ordered a processed cheese which was stabilized for better shelf life. We employees called it plastic cheese. It tasted pretty much the same as real, but the texture was a bit squeeky and it never quite melted. We were all so glad when we saw the last of that stuff.

  2. Christopher M. Chupik

    Here in Canada, we’ve had a few years of a Conservative government. Of course, our own lefties (they are legion) regularily compare Harper to Hitler. The next time I hear this, I might just challenge them to provide evidence for their statements.

    • Teacher in Tejas

      I was tarred by the name calling brush about ten years ago on Joanne Jacobs’ education blog. We were discussing a new comprehensive US history text that avoided political correctness and shoe-horning gender and racial perspectives into every single section of every single chapter and topic, and I made the point that Western Civilization dominated the second millennium AD because, among other reasons, China and Japan looked inward for a good part of it and sub-Saharan Africa was a collection of tribal cultures.

      Man, the race card got pulled out by the next commenter! I asked her to cite specifically what was racist about what I had written and others joined in my defense. Her response was the second most used defense, the Tautology: “Uh….it’s just racist……because it is. If you can’t see that (ad hominum) then I am not going to try and explain it to you (appeal to self-Authority)

      • Christopher M. Chupik

        I mean, if Harper annexed Alaska and persecuted the Metis, you could make a case, but that’s not what’s happened. I was amused once by a sticker a SJW had slapped on a payphone, listing Harper’s “crimes” as “Oilsands, Mining, Palestine”. Whaaah?

        • Funny how, amongst the leftists, economic growth, prosperity and peace happen in spite of conservative governance while poverty, disorder and crime happen despite progressive governance.

          There probably needs to be a psuedo-medical term for an inability to correctly identify causal relationships.

      • mikeweatherford

        Name the book, I want to buy a copy! I’ve got history books that were printed anywhere from 1926 to 1989, and ALL of them have some imperfections.

  3. Yeah, again, sorry about that. For those who missed it on Facebook, I make a joking comment and a friend of mine jumped in an repeated the accusations from the day before.

    Of course, how much longer he’ll be a friend remains to be seen. After I explained what SJW stood for, he disliked the term. I acknowledge that it probably wasn’t the best way to keep the lines of communication open and that I feel both sides have kind of gotten out of hand on stuff like that.

    I was promptly told how that was bullshit and we should all aspire to fight for social justice, but libertarianism has been hijacked by fascists who don’t know the first thing about “freedom”.

    Really?

    Honestly, if the term SJW puts sand in the vagina, then you wouldn’t want to deal with the shit I was called just yesterday alone. Mostly it was lame, but it was worse to say the least.

    Not much hope for a friendship to continue if he’s going to hold with the “fascism” line of modern libertarianism.

    • Yes. We want to leave people alone. Hence we’re… fascists. yeeeessss

      • I don’t think it’s that we want to leave people alone.

        It’s that we want them to leave us alone as well.

        • yes. I know. And that’s too bad.

          • It is.

            They don’t get that the United States has the best social justice anywhere on Earth. We have opportunity to do whatever you want. Seriously, the only thing an immigrant can’t do is become president. That’s the only cap.

            Will the outcome be equal? No, because that’s life. There’s winners and there’s losers. Even the Soviet Union couldn’t erase that. They just decided to pick the winners themselves rather than let them do something so crass as letting people fight it out themselves.

            • Social Justice is a tautology. All justice is ALWAYS personal.

              • Social Justice is one of those terms which is never actually defined. Personally, I think it makes a difference whether you define “Peace” as “absence of open conflict” or as “submission,” but maybe that is just me.

                OTOH, I keep hearing Inigo Montoya whispering in my ear, “They keep using that word …”

                We need a SJ version of this:

                My friends, I had not intended to discuss this controversial subject at this particular time. However, I want you to know that I do not shun controversy. On the contrary, I will take a stand on any issue at any time, regardless of how fraught with controversy it might be. You have asked me how I feel about whiskey. All right, here is how I feel about whiskey:

                If when you say whiskey you mean the devil’s brew, the poison scourge, the bloody monster, that defiles innocence, dethrones reason, destroys the home, creates misery and poverty, yea, literally takes the bread from the mouths of little children; if you mean the evil drink that topples the Christian man and woman from the pinnacle of righteous, gracious living into the bottomless pit of degradation, and despair, and shame and helplessness, and hopelessness, then certainly I am against it.

                But, if when you say whiskey you mean the oil of conversation, the philosophic wine, the ale that is consumed when good fellows get together, that puts a song in their hearts and laughter on their lips, and the warm glow of contentment in their eyes; if you mean Christmas cheer; if you mean the stimulating drink that puts the spring in the old gentleman’s step on a frosty, crispy morning; if you mean the drink which enables a man to magnify his joy, and his happiness, and to forget, if only for a little while, life’s great tragedies, and heartaches, and sorrows; if you mean that drink, the sale of which pours into our treasuries untold millions of dollars, which are used to provide tender care for our little crippled children, our blind, our deaf, our dumb, our pitiful aged and infirm; to build highways and hospitals and schools, then certainly I am for it.

                This is my stand. I will not retreat from it. I will not compromise.

            • I mean an oxymoron. CURSE you benadryl, curse you.

              • The Social Justice Warrior does not believe in judging people as individuals. They believe in judging people as groups. It’s right there in the name. Therefore everyone has to be a member (or not a member) of a specific group and treated accordingly.

                Red or Blue. Tastes Great or Less Filling, Cats or Dogs, 9 mm or .45.

                Since they believe in the power of groups, then any justice in this world must be applied to all members of that group.

                All Narns are guilty of racism and must be despised.
                All Eddorians are wise and effective rulers and should be obeyed.
                All Vulcans are lacking in emotions and are not to be trusted.
                All animals are equal. Pigs are the most equal of all.

                • There is no such thing as an individual in their eyes. Or a human being. There are only intersecting group memberships, piled on with the abandon of an astronomer adding epicycles to make the Ptolemaic system more accurate — with the small difference that epicycles really did make it more accurate, where the group membership only keep the SJW from having to grapple with the possibilities of some problems being personal and others being part of human existence.

                  • The SJW also benefits by receipt of unearned moral status — all the social benefits of membership in an oppressed class with few of the inconveniences. Thus Sasha & Malia Obama can claim status as oppressed female minorities and get Affirmative Actioned into colleges that wouldn’t have ever considered turning them away. And Oprah Winfrey can be dissed by a store clerk in a country with no history of “racial” discrimination.

                • “Red or Blue. Tastes Great or Less Filling, Cats or Dogs, 9 mm or .45.”

                  Either. Both. Neither. .45, because they don’t make a .46.

                  I’m not a group – I’m an individual. If the SJWs have problems telling the difference, then it’s THEIR problem, and I refuse to be caught up in it – and will resist if they persist in slapping labels where I don’t want them.

                • Red or Blue. Tastes Great or Less Filling, Cats or Dogs, 9 mm or .45.

                  Irrelevant, one and all. The only “either/or” question that matters is Ginger or Mary Ann! (Mary Ann. Ginger was a flake:-).

                  • Ginger or Mary Ann?

                    Yes.

                  • The Professor. (Not that there’s much of a choice.)

                  • Nobody loves Lovey….

                    Mary Ann. I suspect she can handle a shotgun better than anyone else on the Island.

                    • Lovey is a married woman, you cad. Also, she is too old to restart the human race if necessary, so eliminated on grounds of fecundity.

                      I doubt Mary Ann has sufficient body mass to handle a shotgun effectively.

                      If the program were to be updated to today I suspect Ginger would be a Scarlett Johansson/Black Widow type, thus far more than merely ornamental. Of course, Thurston Howell IV would be a ruthless industrialist or hedge fund operator, possibly derived from Mitt Romney or the Koch Brothers and thus would prove uber-competent.

                      Paul Krugman as the Professor?

                      Gilligan would have to be Joe Biden, which leaves Teh One as Skipper.

                    • With that casting of the castaways, Other than Ginger, I think we’d all want them LEFT on the Island.

            • Nonsense. If we were just, they would be in charge.

              • Exactly.

              • Have you seen who’s in the White House? :D

                • Excuse me, do you see any evidence that they are actually in charge?

                  • Don’t need it. They believe they’re in charge, because the President is the Master and Commander of the Universe. Remember how evil Bush was?

                    Now, I wasn’t a Bush fan by any means, but I was realistic enough to know what he was responsible for and what he wasn’t. They foamed at the mouth every time he said anything.

                    And, what happened when Obama got elected? Anyone else remember the video of the woman who knew she wasn’t going to have to pay any of her bills from then on?

                    Seriously, I’m curious what happened to her.

                    • What they think does not make it so.

                      They thought that if only they were in charge they could fix the world. They believe that people can form a perfect world if only they are perfectly lead and they are the best and the brightest, so who better?

                      It’s not working out for them, in fact it appears to be falling apart at the seams. So the true believers are beginning the search for new and better best and brightest to do the job for them.

                    • Nonsense. All they have to conclude is that they were not really in charge. Wreckers and kulaks were disobeying them.

                      Open the gulags.

                  • he read about it in the newspaper and is just as angry as you are.

                  • William O. B'Livion

                    Being in charge doesn’t mean they can actually accomplish their goals.

                    Make no mistake, Obama is in charge in a way that no president since FDR has been.

                    • That may be so, but it is not my point.

                      Those who think the government can fix everything are wrong. Those who think that the government can control everything are wrong. Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were all more in charge, and it still didn’t work for them. Those in power can blame dissenters and send them to concentration camps, gulags, reeducation camps and execute them from here to eternity and it still won’t make their plans work.

                    • CACS: Using government to create a perfect society is like using a hammer to change a light bulb.

                    • You betcha.

        • *sighs, depressed* Every time that concept comes up, (HOW DARE YOU LIVE WITHOUT OUR CONSTANT APPROVAL AND SURVIVE WITHOUT US?!111) I wonder if these idiots loved high school drama so much they decided it’d be awesome to never move beyond that.

          …then again, that’s probably true. Just enough ‘adult’ to have rampant sex, but ‘child’ enough to not have responsibilities…

          • Cliques? Check. Use gossip and innuendo against everyone they disagree with? Check. Desperately want to be cool? Check. Try to hard to be cool? Check. Use proxies to enforce their will? Check. Kiss up to the teachers until the teachers turn their backs? Ditto the real “cool kids?” Check. Want all the fun and no responsibility? Checkity check.

            I think you pegged it, Shadowdancer.

            • I think that might be why they also endlessly romanticize the high school years.

              I think of that West Australian commercial about staying in school is a fantastic takedown of the whole ‘party hearty live like reckless idiots while young’ mentality they seem to enshrine in false godhood.

              • You know a country has to be pretty well off for people to be able to dwell in an endless world of high school.

              • I don’t know why adolescence is is considered the best time of ones’ life. It certainly wasn’t for me. Aside from ill-health now is the best time of my life. I’ve been married to the love of my life for 12 years. We’ve been living in Dallas for almost 10 years and life is good. Despite recurring worries about this, that and the other.

                • I suspect that when anybody claims adolescence is the best time of your life they are actually telling you something very significant (and rather depressing) about their own lives.

                  If only they would stop trying to drag us down into the juvenile muck with ‘em.

                  • Whatever you say about the man’s politics, Bruce Springsteen has written a number of good songs:

                    “Glory Days”

                    I had a friend was a big baseball player
                    back in high school
                    He could throw that speedball by you
                    Make you look like a fool boy
                    Saw him the other night at this roadside bar
                    I was walking in, he was walking out
                    We went back inside sat down had a few drinks
                    but all he kept talking about was

                    [Chorus:]
                    Glory days well they’ll pass you by
                    Glory days in the wink of a young girl’s eye
                    Glory days, glory days

                    Well there’s a girl that lives up the block
                    back in school she could turn all the boy’s heads
                    Sometimes on a Friday I’ll stop by
                    and have a few drinks after she put her kids to bed
                    Her and her husband Bobby well they split up
                    I guess it’s two years gone by now
                    We just sit around talking about the old times,
                    she says when she feels like crying
                    she starts laughing thinking about

                    [Chorus]

                    My old man worked 20 years on the line
                    and they let him go
                    Now everywhere he goes out looking for work
                    they just tell him that he’s too old
                    I was 9 nine years old and he was working at the
                    Metuchen Ford plant assembly line
                    Now he just sits on a stool down at the Legion hall
                    but I can tell what’s on his mind

                    Glory days yeah goin back
                    Glory days aw he ain’t never had
                    Glory days, glory days

                    Now I think I’m going down to the well tonight
                    and I’m going to drink till I get my fill
                    And I hope when I get old I don’t sit around thinking about it
                    but I probably will
                    Yeah, just sitting back trying to recapture
                    a little of the glory of, well time slips away
                    and leaves you with nothing mister but
                    boring stories of glory days

                    [Chorus (repeat twice)]

                • I don’t know either. Being a teenager was nice in some ways (… allowance, svelte figure…) , but not nice enough that I would want to forever be a teenager. (And I have hips now, which I like.) It’s honestly not much different from life now, except I don’t have homework or annoying high school to attend. (Why yes, I took on a lot of the heavy chores when I hit adolescence. Handwashing denim? SUCKS.)

                  • Oh, I remember going on my co-op job. I was so nervous every evening for a week. Until it dawned on me that I was nervous because I was not doing any homework and felt disaster pressing at my back.

                  • Handwashing denim? SUCKS.

                    O yeah.

                    Bless the inventor of modern household appliances. While interesting to work with, the free standing wringer washer, which I used when going to school in eastern Tennessee, sure beat hand washing everything hands down.

                  • If we could both go back to being teenagers, I’d gladly give you my hips, because trying to fit them into men’s pants didn’t work. The best-fitting pair of jeans I ever tried on belonged to my girlfriend at the time.

            • I just realized there’s another factor going on, too. I’ll just repost the comment I left at Larry Correia’s blog, in reply to someone who wrote ”I don’t get it. Who raised these people?”:

              I think you’ll find most of them came from single-parent households where dad was out of the picture (mom was either divorced or never married). And single mothers usually don’t have much time for their kids while trying to hold down a job, which means handing the kids off to one daycare center after another. (Some of those daycare centers have names like “____ville Public High School”.)

              Which means the answer to “Who raised these people?” is “the State”. Which, in turn, explains a lot. When you criticize the State, you’re criticizing their mommy and daddy. No wonder they get irrationally angry about it.

              • Patrick Chester

                They were grown in vats? Decanted at physical adulthood?

                “I love you cold, unfeeling robot arm!”

          • While many are stuck in the social constructs they formed in High School, a growing number seem to be practicing the ones they adopted in Middle School.

            • So were getting even more children masquerading as adults, but their mental age is getting even younger?

              You know, when I was younger, mental and developmental retardation was a bad thing, not a fashion statement / thing to be proud of.

        • An argument could be made in support of this:
          1) They believe that government can fix the world. They want to use government to fix the world as they believe it should be done.
          2) We do not believe that government can fix the world, and any effort to do so breaks it further. We want government to be restricted the minimal and only those necessary functions that must be done at that level.
          3) If we get our way they would be forced to cease pursuing their way, and that force, to them is facisism.

          • Hmm. Just stumbled on this:
            http://www.friesian.com/tempest.htm

            It may intrigue.

            • Yes, it does intrigue.

              One note: I believe that Bono is an oddity. He has ceased giving aid in areas when it became apparent that it was not reaching those for which it was intended. He has refused to be shaken down by locals who want to be allowed to ‘handle’ the charity work, again because his goal is to see that the help reaches those who need to be helped. He has also spoken out in defense of a Republican president because he actually did more to stop the spread of HIV/AIDS in Africa than talk the talk or throw band aids.

              (Confession, have not completed the article linked, I am reading it in sections. As the result of severe dyslexia I am told I have the reading speed of the average fifth grader…sigh.)

          • Rob Crawford

            I call 1) the Progressive Category Error, most obvious in statements like “we put a man on the moon, why can’t we solve hunger?”

            The Apollo project was an engineering problem; “hunger” is a human problem. You cannot solve human problems as engineering problems because people aren’t widgets. Attempting to treat people as widgets results in many, many broken widgets.

            • There’s also the point that the faery people complaining about our not solving hunger are militantly against most of the practical methods for doing so; industrial farming, genmod crops, sending the Marines to do something about the kind of swine who uses famine as a tool of statecraft…

              • I’ve gotten to the point where I answer, “Why can’t we solve hunger? Because we don’t go in and conquer countries and forcibly convert them to our philosophical and governmental system, so that their leaders won’t keep the food from getting to them any more.”

                • Which is true in so many ways. Taking producing farms away from successful farmers and giving it to people who do not know how to farm. (Tanzania) Relocating farmers from one area to another, often every couple years. (Sudan) Having central planning dictating what food is to be produced without knowledge of the local growing conditions and then failing to collect the food you ordered produced before it spoiled. (USSR) Taking the food donated for the destitute by other countries and feeding the army. (North Korea) Just to name a few.

      • Only in the twisted mind of a SJWGHH would that make sense. To the rest of us, we’re wondering why the men in white haven’t taken them away yet…

        • Christopher M. Chupik

          Men? White? Racist patriarchy!

        • Speaking of SJWs, I’m eagerly awaiting Meg to respond to you over at Larry’s place.

          You really shouldn’t repress like that. You should let it out. :-)

          • I… actually felt something inside me snap when I read that line.

            I’ve a son. If she has daughters, may my son, when grown, be the guy they WISH they had.

            • After reading her story further downthread about what happened to her, I can see where she got the idea she’s pushing. Her mistake is thinking that the guy who raped her is typical of all men, and that all men would also, in the same situation, be convinced that they’d done nothing wrong. Which is leading her to espouse some really terrible ideas.

              With someone like that, the best you can do is to inform them, as calmly as possible so that others looking in on the discussion realize that you’re the reasonable one, of their mistake and the consequences that will flow from it. Because the person you’re talking to isn’t persuadable, but the onlookers (or thread readers) are.

              In other words, pretty much what you did.

              • Hence my suggestion that if she’s that traumatized, she shouldn’t inflict that risk of ‘feeling raped’ on herself ever again, and go with the Real Doll option.

                My initial thought of a response, honestly, was ‘no, f— you.” because that’s the response stupidity like that deserves.

                Then I thought of my son, and thought of the kind of line of thought that these ‘women’ have and how they inflict these on other women… and no.

                • If a person really doesn’t know he/she committed rape, then they don’t know right from wrong and are legally crazy, or was non compos mentis for other reasons. It’s not an education thing.

                  But we don’t believe in natural law or the conscience, do we? Nooooo, not unless it’s convenient to the snit at present.

            • The Spouse just told me a bit of what this is about.

              Dear G-d in heaven, you mean that some poor guy, who is so totally gay that he would never ever think of this women in that way, could be accused of rape because she mistook the longing glance he cast at the man next to her as directed toward her and SHE let her mind go from there?

              It puts a whole new spin to ‘its all in your head.’

              • She even managed to make it worse, with her new ‘sexual trauma’ angle.

                • So some poor guy who has simply had the grave misfortune as to pass through her line of vision is supposed to be responsible for her own twisted line of thought?

                  I guess, in the name of liberated womanhood, she can’t be bothered with the burden of being responsible for herself or her thought life.

                  • This is the kind of thing that makes me want to take my second X chromosome and see if I can turn it back in.

                    • You’re going to resign from your gender?

                      Someone beat you to that. :P

                    • According to them, I’ve already resigned from my gender, at least from their version of it. Resigning from my sex is starting to have more appeal if these [censored]s are supposed to be the best XX has to offer.

                    • Hmph. Rather say that they lack the example of a good woman in their lives, and strive to be the best example you can for the women in your own life.

                      Heck, strive to be (not that I think it will take much effort on your part) a lady. And to bog with anyone offended by that term.

                  • If you read her responses, she’s flat out unrepetant about the words she threw out, and her treatment of any evidence contrary to her worldview only reinforces the original idea I had of her coming into the conversation with the plan to ‘educate’ us ‘benighted fools’ to the truth of ‘feeling rape = rape’ / whatever insane POV she’s pushing now.

                    If there’s anything she’s displayed being outright dishonest on, it’s that she was actually willing to engage in dialogue. But hey pointing that out is being the bad cop to the rape victim.

                    She proved my suspicions right, full on, so I’m afraid given her behavior after her ‘oh you silly people, I used the WRONG TERMS, meanies!’ ‘retraction’ it’s not a real retraction and she actually does believe the ‘feelings of rape = rape,” and not anything else. But hey, she got someone to scold me so she won! Playing the rape victim be nicer to me card worked.

                    *Shakes head*

                    at least very little gets deleted over at Larry’s. her words still stand.

          • And yeah, I still held back, even though I was so angry, I felt like I was floating in a ball of fire.

            • Patrick Chester

              …wiiiiiiiiiith a story about how some… thing raped her and got away with it so that makes her cute redefinition of rape “okay” in her eyes.

              My reply is very restrained, I hope.

              • Very. see my new ones. ARRRGH.

                If she really had been raped, I am finding it difficult to sympathize – her stance, along with false accusers, is exactly WHY it’s so hard for rape victims to get justice. IT MAKES ME ANGRY.

                • Patrick Chester

                  *checks scouter*

                  “Her rage is OVER NINE THOUSAND!!!!”

                  *runs from carp/orbital kinetic strikes/1000-ton hammers*

                • Patrick Chester

                  More seriously, that’s all I could really put in my response without getting too insulting: She’s trying to use one injustice to excuse more injustice.

                  I’ve seen that sort of bs before from the gun control debates and it is very annoying.

                  • She’s doing worse than using an injustice to excuse another; she’s actively making it more difficult for accusations of rape to be taken seriously by the law by changing the ‘social’ definition of rape and making light of the incredible harm she’s doing (right up there with false accusers) for actual victims, both past present and future, by saying “It’s not the LEGAL definition I’m talking about!”

                    You cannot separate the two. And she even ‘tries to rephrase’ what she says and THINKS it sounds LESS WORSE.

                    And oh gods she replied again.

                    • I understand your rage. I’ve seen, first hand the damage what she advocates does. I have not yet managed to come up with a coherent reply, and I refuse to give her the ‘win’ by swearing at her in two languages. So I’m sitting here cheering you on.

                    • Would more languages help? I can probably contribute three. Maybe four. Three I never learned to swear in.

                    • Yeah, I got exposed real early to the feminist bullshit arguments, resulting in my total rejection of modern feminism. It’s not equality.

                      She may have been raped, but she still displays a rather insane self-destructive naivete that if she’d been in countries MORE HOSTILE than the US, she’d have been marked as ‘prey’ a long, long time ago. In fact, that self-destructiveness is the type that WILL take other people down with them.

                      I still think she should stick with a Real Doll. No risk of her having offspring, no risk of her ever ‘feeling she may have been raped/regretsex ever again.’

                      I figure that’s what feminists really want. Actual Chobits Persocoms so they can program their ‘ideal’. I support their robosexuality! (It’ll stop them from breeding.)

                    • You know what? She replied again.

                      http://monsterhunternation.com/2014/06/10/the-naive-idiocy-of-teaching-rapists-not-to-rape/#comment-66540

                      And it’s even stupider than before. *passes on the Lamarck Clue By Four*

                      It’s 2 am in Australia, and I need me some sleep. Coz, y’know, I gotta watch out for them white people. NK Jemisin says it’s not safe to be a person of color here, and since my skin be a golden toasty color, I need my sleep to be alert. There might be white men falling out of the eucalypts like rain, because damn, white men can’t hang like koalas worth shit.

                      /snark /hat tip

                    • She’s replied again, and I’m choosing to assume that she’s sincere but naive. Though since I’m about to go to bed (it’s almost midnight over here), that’s going to be my last post on the subject. I’ll have to wait about 6-7 hours before I see whether she chooses to respond to me.

                      By the way, Shadowdancer – you referred to me as “her” in the discussion at Larry’s place. I have one of those ambiguous first names that could be male or female (like Pat, or Chris, or… all too many these days, really), but I’m a man. Not that it should matter when it comes to a discussion of ideas… but it does matter when it comes to talking with friends. And you’re among those people at Sarah’s blog and elsewhere whom I consider to be in my “friends I’ve never met face-to-face”.

                      Don’t bother correcting that mistaken pronoun over at Larry’s place, though. If Meg is one of those irrational folks who thinks a man can’t have a valid opinion on rape, then your mistake might possibly have a chance of doing some good, because she might actually read what I say and think about it. I’m afraid it’s not too likely, given how most Internet arguments go… but there’s always that chance that this time, you’re talking to someone who hasn’t hardened her positions in stone. And actually, she does seem to be willing to admit that false rape accusations happen, so I think there still might be some hope for her. Though I did note that she’s naive enough to think that false rape accusations are “attention seeking.” Um, no, no they’re not: the true motive of most false accusations is either a) revenge for some slight real or imagined, b) covering up the accuser’s bad behavior (“Hmmm, if my boyfriend finds out I slept with five guys at once he’s sure to dump me. I know: I’ll say it was a gang-rape. Then I’ll get sympathy rather than get dumped.”), or c) some combination of the above.

                      But anyway, the point is — correcting that mistaken female pronoun over at Larry’s place is likely to throw away the 1% chance that she might actually read what I said and think about it. So I chose not to say anything about it over there, and I’d ask you not to either. But I did want to let you know, so I’m posting about it over here.

                    • It’s 3 am where I am, well past, and I’m unable to sleep myself so I can understand the need for sleep.

                      So sorry about the mistaken pronoun! But yes you may be right about having a chance of you convincing her (because she’s done the very juvenile thing of ‘not going to respond to all the meanies!’) I’ll admit that right now you’re more optimistic about her than I am (A few of the things she’s said have set off a few of my internal warning flags; she’s pinging me as a concern troll) and even if she IS really a rape victim, a lethally bad idea as that is something I can’t be nice about. Being a victim does not give license to make more, and that idea she had – mistaken or not, badly phrased or not – even if she didn’t ‘mean for it to be taken that way’, we’ve seen all too often how that goes.

                      Hopefully your nice person approach versus my ‘evil meanie rawr’ one will have traction, if she is indeed not yet set in stone / concern trolling.

                    • …and even if she IS really a rape victim…

                      You know, I didn’t want to say anything about it, but since you brought it up, her response to me (when I said that the people who backed him up needed to be hunted down and beaten with a lead pipe) kind of got me wondering if that story really did happen the way she says it did:

                      He was very convincing, as I said, I imagine a person’s arm would get tired before they got through all the people who believed him. It probably wasn’t the entire town of 3000 or so, but it sure seemed like it.

                      This would mean that it was pretty much everyone she talked to. I have a hard time buying this.

                    • A population of 3000, to me sounds like a small town. Bear in mind this is a lot of conjecture, but I’m going off her statements as well.

                      She mentions that the foreplay being too rough was why she called a stop to it, he ignored her, she struggled, knocked herself out. According to her, he said that he thought she was acting/pretend resisting. Most men, and most women tend not to go for rough foreplay unless it’s an accepted act between them. That’s why I said safewords are important – yes it’s the BSDM group that is best known for using them, but this is actually true of any sexual play – even if it’s a married couple trying something as mundane as a new position they read about in the copy of the Kama Sutra someone gave to them for their tenth anniversary. Why? Because “Ow” is not easily discernible as an exclamation of pain in an activity where incoherent sounds are more or less the norm.

                      Anyway… small town. Last I was aware of, small towns rarely have secrets. Yes, her rapist ‘was very convincing,’ but in order to be convinced there has to be an observation of something that lends credence to the claim. And teens talk about sex a lot – sometimes they may even exaggerate. So perhaps the couple was known for energetic or role play sex.

                      Which brings me to the legal part. While it’s possible that yes, the lawyers and court and the local legal organ are either incompetent or corrupt or both, I wonder what brought the decision that there wasn’t enough evidence to prosecute.

                      Taking her words entirely at face value,

                      …and I should stop here, because I fell asleep while typing, jolted awake, and saw “rabbit fur makes good lining,” typed into the comment.

                    • Growing up, it too me a long time to get used to the notion that 3000 was considered a “small town”. On my way to anywhere when I was living with my parents, we passed a sign about 1/4 mile up the road that said, “Welcome to Burlington, Pop. 435″

                      I may have to go back and re-read that account, because I got the impression that that was their first and only time.

                    • Aaaaaaand I’m done with her now. She denies that the “rape culture” hysteria has led to many false accusations, in the teeth of the evidence, based purely on her own experiences. Yes, real rape victims are often reluctant to name their rapist, because they feel shame for being raped. They shouldn’t, but it’s a thing that happens all the time. It does not follow from that fact that there cannot also be large numbers of evil women (and some evil men, but most false rape accusations are coming from women these days) who are willing (and eager!) to destroy someone else’s life with a false accusation.

                      I wrote about the most stinging put-down I could write while still remaining polite, and offering the choice for her to grow up if she chooses. She won’t, but I have to make the offer. But I’m done with her.

                    • Your prior patience and civility were inspiring to see, and far more than I was capable of. So — thanks for the standard for aspiration.

                      And, yes, her last comment was a particularly heavy straw.

                      I shall now go read your response.

                    • Thanks for your perseverance though. I’m afraid I thought her a waste of time already when she showed she wasn’t going to actually apologize OR take back what she said about “all it takes for rape to be rape is for one of the parties to FEEL that it was rape.” She never actually addressed any of the points that questioned her on that score and only the ones that addressed what she wanted to play with.

                      Sadly I think the stinging part will be missed entirely. But you gave her an honest go, and I don’t think she honestly wanted to ever play fair.

                    • I have exchanged not one word with this woman and I feel dehumanized, otherized, stigmatized and raped. I fear any male in the same municipality of her is in danger of her accusations of rape; I saw a man tip his hat to a lady yesterday and from the look on her face she might well have felt sexually molested..
                      https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/maleprivilege

                      Thanks to the Bastiat Institute for sharing.

                    • Yeah. It’s depressing, isn’t it?

                    • I saw a man tip his hat to a lady yesterday and from the look on her face she might well have felt sexually molested.

                      Hmmm, I might have to start wearing a hat so I can tip it to ladies. Open doors for them, pull out chairs for them… and watch the angry feminists* make themselves look like the fools they are when they complain loudly that some guy is being polite to them. Let them discredit themselves by the words coming out of their own mouths in public, and all I have to do is act like a gentleman, with honor. I like this idea.

                      * There are non-angry feminists — I’ve met some. Most of them are looking at the angry feminists and saying “Please, please, stop being on my side!”

                    • And yet now she sounds like she’s actually reading the links and thinking about it, which is further than I expected her to get. I’m not going back to that discussion, since it already left me unable to sleep last night (brain was too engaged and wouldn’t shut up and let me fall asleep), but others are continuing to talk to her and she actually does seem willing to learn. My final take: she has never actually thought about the harm that the “rape culture” does before, she was VERY bad at expressing her ideas (though she thankfully doesn’t actually hold the ideas it sounded like she did) and she has an automatic bias towards her own experience, but she’s genuine, not a concern troll. When did a concern troll ever admit that the other people might have a point?

                      Anyway, the list of her mistakes is lengthy, and the list of things she doesn’t address is even lengthier (she could at least say “Wow, there’s no way I’ll have time to respond to five people typing lengthy posts in the time it takes me to type a single post, so I’ll have to pick and choose what I respond to for the sake of time”, but she doesn’t). BUT… she doesn’t sound like someone whose mind is entirely closed, and that alone makes her an Internet arguing rarity.

                      Anyway, we now return you to your scheduled discussion of … wait, what was the official topic around here? Books? Amazon? Hachette? SJWs? Hang on, let me consult my Sooper-Sekrit Hun Topic Rules. It’s an even-numbered month, the moon is full tonight, and the number of minutes on the clock is a prime number, so that means… carry the seven… page 242. Okay, there we go: we’re supposed to be discussing “the applicability of Calvinball rules to our national elections.”

                    • Perhaps you’re right. For me, after some thought and a nap, the severe disparity between the two concepts she presented has me so wary of whether she was honest about ‘I wasn’t using the right terms’ that it felt less like a retraction of her original statement than it did a moving of goalposts. The thought of engaging her in any discussion again leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Perhaps she’ll learn, but I don’t wish to engage her further.

      • mikeweatherford

        I want more than just to leave other people alone. I want THEM to leave ME alone. I can accept responsibility for what I do. I can make my own decisions, and yes, some of those decisions might be “bad”. But it’s my life, and I’ll live it as I please, and the world can either lump it or ignore it, as long as I don’t hurt others. For all the social “justice” warriors, grow up and get a life!

    • Now I don’t feel as bad jumping on him. Not that I felt all that bad to begin with…

      • Yeah, well, we’ll see how he responds to my last message to him where I pointed out how I’ve been called much worse than a SJW because I disagreed with some point of policy.

    • Earlier today a complete loon told me that the evil Koch brothers were going to – among the many evil acts – arm every man, woman and child and take over the United States.

      Think about it. If you were going to “take over the US”, would you first arm every man, woman and child?

      • Well, most of us would, because it would further our goal of taking over the US and then leaving everybody alone!

        (Insert diabolical laughter here.)

      • The Koch brothers are going to buy me a gun!?!?! Where do I sign up?

        • I just want them to subsidize some bricks of .22 rimfire for me …

        • Aw, I wonder if they’ll buy a few guns for a few Aussies…

          • I am wondering if they let us select our own guns. I’ve got my eye on an M109 Howitzer that would look lovely with Hello Kitty designs on its sides and deck. Remember, Happiness is a warm gun.

            Over hill, over dale
            As we hit the dusty trail,
            And those caissons go rolling along.
            In and out, hear them shout,
            Counter march and right about,
            And those caissons go rolling along.

            Refrain:
            Then it’s hi! hi! hee!
            In the field artillery,
            Shout out your numbers loud and strong,
            For where e’er you go,
            You will always know
            That those caissons go rolling along.

            In the storm, in the night,
            Action left or action right
            See those caissons go rolling along
            Limber front, limber rear,
            Prepare to mount your cannoneer
            And those caissons go rolling along.
            Refrain:

            Was it high, was it low,
            Where the hell did that one go?
            As those caissons go rolling along
            Was it left, was it right,
            Now we won’t get home tonight
            And those caissons go rolling along.
            Refrain:

          • If they have any money left over, they might under ANZUS.

      • BobtheRegisterredFool

        Arming every American man, woman and child, having them take over the United States, is essentially the same thing as having the United States continue to exist.

        The United States of America exists as the instrument of a peculiar people, driven by a special madness. As a people, they are armed, because to be otherwise is alien. They know they cannot trust government, other peoples, or each other enough to disarm, and walk happily to the chopping block. If you put your neck on the block, someone will swing the axe. The United States of America cannot be the United States of America unless it is under the control of its people.

      • Patrick Chester

        That sort of drone seems to think mere presence of a gun turns people into murderers so perhaps it thinks the Evil Koch Brothers hope the population slaughters itself after taking over the US?

        Presumably after shutting down the mind-control lasers.

      • I kind of wish the Koch brothers would arm me and my family. We all want AR-15′s but I can’t afford them right now.

        If the Koch’s would hook us up, that would be awesome.

        Of course, what your loon failed to consider is that arming EVERYONE would mean arming people who oppose them. Maths be hard and stuff.

        • Ah, but they are good and they won’t use gonnes because gonnes are evil. Oh, wait a minute, gonnes are evil and they will make their possessor use them. Gonnes must therefore be eliminated so good people can remain safe.

          They also make Terry Pratchett write bad books.

      • Jordan S. Bassior

        Think about it. If you were going to “take over the US”, would you first arm every man, woman and child?

        If “every man, woman and child” supported the new regime, would that not make it legitimate? Indeed, more legitimate than any regime in any country in human history?

        Perhaps he believes that the Koch Brothers are Changelings and this came from the “This Day” aria?

        • We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these, are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. that , to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that, whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing it powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

          If you aren’t familiar with the source you should look it up and read it — The Declaration of Independence.

  4. OT – you mentioned in the previous post eczema on your arms. I get a horribly itchy rash from the sun in spring/summer (polymorphic light eruptions) that nothing but waiting out helps. Recently I’ve found that gold bond powder (the orange container) helps relieve the itching – not sure if it’s the menthol or zinc in it. See if it helps you. You can get a trial size at Wally World for around a buck.

  5. OT and last time I bring it up: the middle school book fair ended yesterday. None of the Heinlein juveniles I slipped onto the shelves were bought (no evidence anyone even looked at them — they never moved from where I put them). It occurs to me that the cover prices were higher than the regular books. The Heinleins were packed away when the fair left, so maybe someone at another school will pick them up.

    • The Heinleins were packed away when the fair left, so maybe someone at another school will pick them up.

      We can hope.

    • The Heinleins were packed away when the fair left, so maybe someone at another school will pick them up.

      That sounds like it’d be a great short story collection– the editor writes an intro of someone who puts a bunch of his books into a book fair, mourns as he doesn’t see any bought, and it closes with him hoping that someone will buy one and it’ll touch them like it did him…..

      …followed by a bunch of stories of folks who ARE touched by it. Kids who buy the books, parents who read them, one of the organizers who goes “hey, this one isn’t on the inventory” and puts it in her purse to turn in to lost and found, then forgets until she’s on the plane and bored crazy.

  6. I still prefer Pournelle’s Axes as a way to determine where someone is politically.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pournelle_chart
    It’s not perfect – what is?!? – but it works a good definition.

    • I do like that chart…for a while I described my politics as Third Quadrant (not to be confused with Third Way) and when queried pointed people to the chart.

      What’s interesting is the lack of a political party in the Third Quadrant which tells me a lot about people in political parties. The one quadrant where people who believe people are people and neither the state nor intellect can resolve the human condition is unpopulated.

    • This wiki article says there are too many primary sources used and secondary or tertiary sources are needed. Color my gast well and truly flabbered.

      • If you want a good summary of what’s wrong with Wikipedia, their “use secondary sources in preferences to primary sources” policy (yes, policy) is about as good as you’re going to get:

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research#Primary.2C_secondary_and_tertiary_sources

        If you want a long, VERY in-depth series of articles on what’s wrong with Wikipedia, a Google search for “the register uk wikipedia” (without quotes) will turn up some articles, which in turn will have links to other articles. My summary of those articles: structural problems in the organization’s governance, not fixable by outsiders.

        • There was a kerfuffle about the Haymarket anarchists, starting when one student asked a professor why, if they were railroaded, the state had so much evidence that it took them weeks to present it all. He researched. He found out, for instance, that the evidence that one of them built the bomb was overwhelming. He couldn’t change the article because it was all primary source. He wrote a book about it. Then it wasn’t allowed on the grounds it didn’t conform to consensus. One wonders what cases like this have happened under the radar.

          • Then it wasn’t allowed on the grounds it didn’t conform to consensus. One wonders what cases like this have happened under the radar.

            Kind of like how in High School we had the “Rosenbergs were innocent” history lesson… while the Soviet Archives showing they definitely were NOT were on the news?

            You can see why that teacher didn’t much care for me, although I’ll give that she was rather professional and honorable in her dislike.

          • Yes, I remember that kerfluffle about the Haymarket thing. That was the incident that woke me up to Wikipedia’s deeper problems. Until then, I had thought it was just a matter of “college students have more time to edit it, college students tend to be liberal because they’ve bought into the indoctrination their professors feed them, therefore the liberal mindset tends to win because those editors have more time than the people with real jobs.” But when I learned about the Haymarket thing, I realized that Wikipedia was actually structured in a way to actively protect bad information from being corrected, and that the problems ran much deeper than I had thought.

            • The article now solemnly says “The evidence was that one of the defendants may have built the bomb, but none of those on trial had thrown it” — as if you would have the slightest doubt about convicting someone of murder if it were proved that I were at a particular spot, and my gun shot someone there, unless I could prove that someone else did it.

            • Wikipedia’s “issues” are only a matter for concern if you mistake the enterprise’s goal. It is not an encyclopedia of knowledge, per se. It should be viewed as a compendium of popularly held beliefs, which is not at all the same thing.

              • But since most people believe it to be an encyclopedia of knowledge, its issues should be of great concern.

                • The fact that many people do not properly understand what Wikipedia actually is is indeed a matter of concern. All Wikipedia does is document the present mythologies; had Wiki existed in the time of Coppernicus it would have promoted Ptolomeic astronomy.

                  • I know for a while Wikipedia itself was promoting how they have equal or lower number of “errors” than the average encyclopedia. IIRC, a lot of the stuff when you looked at it was “Britannica added a B to David Weber, Wikipedia said birds are lizards” type things, but still– hard to call it a misunderstanding when they’re officially pushing a misrepresentation. (Believing a misrepresentation is usually called “being lied to.” Why, yes, I do dislike Wiki….)

      • Color my gast well and truly flabbered.

        I believe I’m going to steal this. Wonderful, it is.

  7. I can sort-of keep track of German politics through the German media and web stuff, but there’s no good way to explain it in terms of US politics. Once you start tracing party pedigrees, any easy similarity vanishes. OK, except for the Communist Party in Germany and the CPUSA. They are pretty close, as far as it goes. Mostly.

    • Because they are internationalist. Except members of CPUSA tend to be dumber than their contemporaries in Europe because — how can they believe the lies?
      But yeah. I’m not defending UKIP. It wouldn’t even surprise me if they have some racial program. it’s EUROPE. Nations are tribal. What I’m saying is that the meme I shared — from Britain First, not UKIP — has nothing to do with that, and that sharing it doesn’t make for much support for UKIP or even Britain first. You can see the whole picture without clicking, so why would you click?

      • It is difficult for some people to remember that, just because you oppose Hitler and Mussolini it does not follow that you must also oppose vegetarianism and the trains running on time.

      • Oh yes. The German Communists would laugh at the average CPUSA member or follower, then toss them out on their ears, based on what I’ve managed to wade through of their “platform”.

        I agree on the tribalism. “Europeanists” in history tend to agree (if they agree on anything) that Americans and Canadians can’t be nationalistic or Right Wing in the European sense because we’ve so muddled state/nation/culture/patriotism. The idea of nationalism just doesn’t fit into the North American mindset anymore. And vis a vis the meme follies: I kinda like recordings of military music from the late 19th and early 20th centuries, in part because some mornings I need a strong cadence to get me moving faster than a sedated snail crawls. Sure as heck doesn’t mean I believe in the glorious destiny of the Hohenzollern dynasty, or support the idea that it is Russia’s divinely-appointed task to be the third Rome.

        • No more does enjoying Die Walküre mean I endorse Nazi eugenics.

          Could just be I really really like Bugs Bunny. The thing about great art is it surpasses the limits of the artist. This does not, contrary to some apologists, justify or even excuse the artist’s moral failings.

        • “Europeanists” in history tend to agree (if they agree on anything) that Americans and Canadians can’t be nationalistic or Right Wing in the European sense because we’ve so muddled state/nation/culture/patriotism. The idea of nationalism just doesn’t fit into the North American mindset anymore.

          Is there more on/of this? It’s a thought I’ve had without any credible information to back it up. An observation and hunch, if you will.

    • BobtheRegisterredFool

      What about ‘The German National Socialist Workers Party is a knock off of the American Democratic Party’? Same issue?

      • I would say yes, based on my limited study of the NSDAP, and depending on which parts of the Democrat Party during the 1900s-early 1930s you are looking at. The Progressive wing fed off European ideas, then some European groups picked up bits of some US ideas (Dewey and education for ex), but what I’ve read doesn’t show any firm connection. But I will also say that I specifically avoid doing any more research than I have to about the NSDAP. I’ve got enough third rails to dance over in US history (my official specialty) that I prefer not to poke at them in what I study for “fun.”

  8. There are times when you should legitimately be disturbed. I remember a lot of MZB’s work fondly; but she was going around writing a large number of didactic books about sex and morality, and running organizations deeply concerned with sex and morality, when apparently she didn’t really put much thought or conscience into either. (And let’s not even mention her as a guide to menstrual health.) So yeah, reading certain portions of her work at face value is not super duper advisable.

    OTOH, in fandom as in life, it is perfectly possible for people to be quite involved in certain facets of a family member, friend, or neighbor’s life while being totally unaware of other facets. A person can be absolutely vile to some people and absolutely sweet to others, without any observable rhyme or reason. Add the effects of time and changes of mind or associates, and somebody can seem to be not even the same person. (Witness the proprietor of the blog that goes unnamed.)

    And on the gripping hand, there are a lot of people who lie about facets of people’s lives. Some people are great raconteurs and buddies to all, but also big fat unconscious fabulists. (I’ve been known to do this myself, by mistake, when it comes to certain historical details, because it’s easier to “remember” something that makes a better internal story.) If somebody tells you something surprising but true, you’ll probably find supporting evidence. If somebody tells you something surprising and you find nothing at all to support it, they might have made it up or be misremembering.

    So yeah, tarring by association is spectacularly beside the point, many times. OTOH, it’s probably best not to hang out with terrorists if you can avoid it. :)

    • Christopher M. Chupik

      Speaking of MZB, here’s the fandom crisis of the moment (though I suspect it won’t get the same coverage as the others:

      http://file770.com/?p=17382&cpage=1

      • Fail Burton

        Well, let’s just predict in advance we won’t have 60-70 outraged blog posts about the innate moral failings of “old lesbians” like we did when “old white men” like Barry Malzberg and Mike Resnick used the word “lady.” Plain to see which is the bigger crime in Stupidtown.

      • Fail Burton

        This MZB thing is a perfect example of how the PC operate. Notice how their every move is calculated to smear all straight white males. Malzberg and Reznick: not their individual opinions – their failings as “old white men.”

        Crazy shooter Elliot Rodger: typical misogynist empowered by #AllMen.

        Blacklisted Hugo host Jonathan Ross: typical misogynist “white dude parade.”

        John Campbell rejects a Samuel Delany story for a black character: Golden Age SF dominated by white racist males. I could go on forever.

        But look at MZB: look at how they compartmentalize her behavior so it doesn’t leak out and smear one single other group by association. Suddenly the PC understand the concept of law and group defamation. There won’t be any #NotAllLesbians. Nope – it’s just MZB and her husband. No leakage, no racial or sexual defamation. The principle of law is obeyed… for about one day.

        One of them actually had the nerve to say it was because white men don’t listen to women and PoC.

        The PC are liars and assholes, and they’re on Twitter right now doing a complete 180 from what they usually do. Tomorrow it’ll be back to “men” and “whites” and “cis peeeooople.” Fuck ‘em. Fuck every last one of ‘em.

        If we did what these racist sexist neo-Nazi supremacist morons do, we’d be lighting up the internet about typical “old lesbians,” and “dyke-perv-culture,” and “white homosexual women,” and “Homo peeeoooople,” and “end non-binary fiction,” all the rest of their sick defamations. Then we’d top it all off with an N.K. Jemisin-style speech about weirdo donkeys who daily work to marginalize us, which is what moron-train actually does. This preening cult of liars can’t marginalize themselves right out of their own careers soon enough to suit me.

        • Here is something else about MZB towards the end of her life a number of books she supposedly wrote were written almost completely by her friend Adrienne Martine-Barnes. I have a copy of The Shadow Matrix (1997) with Adrienne Martine-Barnes also as by Marion Zimmer Bradley. On the cover there is no mention of Adrienne. I know for a fact that the Glenraven books.
          1 Glenraven (1996) with Holly Lisle
          2 In the Rift (1998) with Holly Lisle
          Were written by Holly Lisle with almost no input from MZB. In fact the publisher Jim Baen was kept completely in the dark also. While it wasn’t Lisle’s fault I noticed those were the last books of hers that Baen published.

          • My understanding is that Bradley was not writing much fiction or at all at the end of her life, and that several of these book deals with friends or newbies were done, using her as a sort of brand name, in order to pay her medical and other bills. Of course this was at the same time that many other books were being “co-written” with outline by famouswriter and text by newbiewriter, so perhaps it didn’t stand out as much then.

            But yeah, there’s a world of difference between co-writing with one of David Drake’s famously detailed outlines, and co-writing with somebody who basically does nothing but add a marketing label.

            Gah, this whole thing is sickening. Authors being jerks is one thing; authors being horrifically criminal is another. I suppose reception of the early work needn’t be touched by this, but I don’t see how you could avoid including this knowledge in one’s critical opinion of her later work, considering its Yay Women Take Care of Each Other insistence.

        • Moira Greyland, nee Moira Breen, just revealed in emails to the Deirdre Moen person (and gave permission for it to be publicly revealed on her blog) that MZB personally molested her, from the age of 3 to the age of 12.

          Well. I wish I could say that surprised me, but the previous court depositions revealed that she was treated in some abusive ways by all the adult members of the immediate family, so it doesn’t really surprise me that child rape was also involved for her. I’m glad that she survived such mistreatment by people as well as she did, and I’m glad she’s had the gumption to speak the truth about her family.

          Obviously this is subject to the usual possibility of internet hoaxing, but it seems to be the same style as other things I’ve read by the lady.

            • I didn’t know about the MZB thing. I think I’m going to be sick.

              • All that prose of hers about how rapists were evil. Pfaugh.

                • And incidentally, it occurs to me that the author of the Gor books was apparently safer to be around than MZB. So much for the patriarchal rape culture. (Not suggesting that Gor fandom is healthy, but there you are.)

                  • The author of Gore was apparently a very polite and retiring professor. the idea makes me giggle.

                    • Met him once at a Con in Arlington VA. Little old white haired man. Totally not interested in real world “Goreans”.

                    • SheSellsSeashells

                      At this point I feel compelled to mention Mike Resnick’s throwaway line about “John Norman suggested ‘Buckets of Gor’ for a title”. :)

                    • He sublimated his evil side into writing?

                    • Paul (Drak Bibliophile) Howard

                      Or maybe the Gor series started as a “jab” at critics of “Sword and Sorcery” fiction. As in “Oh, you don’t like how the heroes of Sword and Sorcery treat women. I’ll give you worse”. Then it started to sell and he continued to write it for the money. [Wink]

                    • Supposedly the first 6 were passable Sword and Sorcery stories, despite the backdrop. Then they started to go overboard.

                  • You have me curious about these books now…

                    • Christopher M. Chupik

                      Well, they start out as fairly standard Burroughs-style interplanetary adventure, then around Book 6, it takes a permanent detour into bondage and submission. So be warned. ;-)

                    • Book 6??!!? I was halfway through book 2 when I put it aside as not worth reading … at a time and age when I would read virtually anything SF/F and it was still difficult to find sufficient material.

                • Jordan S. Bassior

                  Apparently she knew rapists were evil firsthand — being one, herself!!!

              • Yep, never heard of this until today. pretty much ruined my day. Even went through my boxes in storage to see if I still have any of her books so I can throw them out. I didn’t have any.

                • I have one, I’ll keep it because I enjoyed the story, but I’m not likely to buy anything of hers. I had planned to. No, I have worthier books to spend my money on.

                  Or maybe another Anime-style figure because I like looking at the hyperidealized beauty that, as a bonus, seems to drive feminists into frothing rages.

                  • Hearing cases like this makes me want to do violence to those that are responsible, but it just ends up as impotent rage.

                    I never used to give a second thought to the things I enjoy, whether it had any “political” baggage, and I’ve been surprised by how many things outrage people. I got into a fight a while ago, on FB, because I dared to say it’s absurd for women to view all men as potential rapists until proven otherwise. And when I said that if I ever went out on a date (which will never happen because I’m married) and I discovered the girl views me as such a threat, I’d call it a night, they went ballistic. Apparently I have a duty to prove my innocence, or something like that.

                    • I got into a fight a while ago, on FB, because I dared to say it’s absurd for women to view all men as potential rapists until proven otherwise. And when I said that if I ever went out on a date (which will never happen because I’m married) and I discovered the girl views me as such a threat, I’d call it a night, they went ballistic. Apparently I have a duty to prove my innocence, or something like that.

                      Yeah, it’s like “YOU HAVE TO PROVE YOU’RE SAFE! FOR OUR SAKE.” uh, no, no you don’t. Especially since they shift the goalposts of what is considered safe. And a lot of the ‘safe’ men, they friendzone, or ‘just aren’t into’ or some other bullshit, because they still want the confident alpha males, but demand that men be betas and subordinates to women. Which they hope they can morph alphas into.

                      Why the nine hells are you supposed to make stuff easier for the feminists? They don’t WANT chivalry or gallantry or any of those ‘old fashioned patriarchy crap’ right?

                    • because they still want the confident alpha males

                      Which is interesting. I seem to recall a series of studies on perception done a while back that found that while women claimed they wanted confident men, what they chose were arrogant jerks. I concluded that they probably really did want confident men, but had no idea what that actually looked like, the cultural cues to what a confident man having been so mangled.

                    • THANK YOU for that second part!

                      So many people assume the women are lying– I always want to know if they were OFFERED guys who are actually confident, too…..

                      (My dear husband is confident; he can be confused with an ass if you’re being an idiot.)

                    • Birthday girl

                      You reminded me of a certain man-hating relative I have, who recently (and inadvertently) informed me that she is physically afraid of the workmen who come to her house. She said she wishes they wouldn’t send such big men on her service calls, they’re all so big and tall and it makes her uncomfortable. At which point I remarked “it sounds as though you’re afraid of them.” And she thought for a moment and replied that yes, maybe she was … which thought made my brain go *skwonk* Clearly, some people out there are not strapped in very tightly, mentally or emotionally … but how do they get that way in the first place?

                    • People’s experience in life informs their views. Some stew in their bitterness.

                    • If you’re finding yourself having trouble staying awake, and need something to get the adrenaline flowing (from rage, of course), hit up a search engine and look for “Shrodinger’s Rapist”. But don’t do it if you have hypertension.

                    • Aah… I googled it. So we all are “potential” rapists to one another? Sounds more like a social construct, but I know my opinions are flawed, so there’s that.

                    • Remember, we are not allowed to assume all women are psychotics, even if we have experience that makes us believe otherwise, because it’s not right.

                      But we can all be assumed to be rapists without cause because penis and stuff.

                      Yet more reasons I’m glad I’m not a lefty anymore.

                    • Yep. I made the mistake of retorting with, “What about my right not to be in the company of someone who thinks the worst of me?” That was of course left unanswered, but I did get my character described to me.

                    • Isn’t it awesome when someone does that and they don’t even know you?

                      I get that fairly regularly, I’m afraid. Of course, with me it’s usually based on my stance on some measure or other.

                    • I don’t have to go trace my lineage. It’ll be told to me. A great service, really.

                    • It is. I mean, despite my grandmother’s decades of geneological research, I never knew I was descended from motherless goat herders kicked out of upper Mongolia for buggering dandelions.

                      I mean, who knew?

                    • Man, what a revelation. You must be so proud.

                    • You shall henceforth be known as “Spawn of Dandelion Buggerers,” and your fans will be cursed as Dandelion Buggering Knightstalkers…

                    • Aaaaaaaaaaand there goes ever having fans ;)

                    • While the “Knightstalker” part may be a little over the top, I, at least, have no fear of being called a Dandelion Buggerer, so you still have at least one fan.

                    • And, by default, you are officially president of my fan club. :D

                    • Is that better or worse than being Principal of a Home School*?

                      *That’s a line from an episode of Epic Rap Battles of History – Lady Gaga vs Sarah Palin

                    • Well, in theory, there might be more in the fan club someday so….

                    • It is hardly their fault that you are so discourteous as to fail to conform to what they think you should be.

                    • Well obviously.

                      I knew it was all my fault because…well…penis. That’s all it took.

                    • I wouldn’t say potential rapists. I’d say more like pigs. Scrub them with soap, hope for the best, and keep a big stick in the corner. And maybe keep around some things to distract them – like mashed potatoes and gravy.

                    • Hey, the best way to silence me is to give me a good book. Ok, and food.

                      I’m fortunate (or is that privilege?), my wife says I’m manly and my thinly-veiled arrogance is attractive and my kids think I’m a clown. I prefer this, not all these new buzz words making the rounds which seeks to define me without knowing me.

                    • I got into a fight a while ago, on FB, because I dared to say it’s absurd for women to view all men as potential rapists until proven otherwise

                      Eeeeh….

                      *wiggles hand side to side*

                      I can see defending the “view as potential risk” thing, but it’s rather short sighted– there are entire classes of criminal that depend on people ignoring them as threats.

                      I’m guessing you encountered the one where the level of proof is a LOT higher, and the viewing as potential rapists is a LOT more active.

                      I apply roughly “look both ways on the one way street” levels of assuming everyone is a possible threat… when I remember, anyways, and I’ve almost gotten in trouble a couple of times because of forgetting. :( Then again, I DID spot the guy that was obviously trailing me out of the grocery store and nothing came of it, so I’ll take it.

                    • “Potential” is rather different from “probable” or “likely.”

                      Rape is also only one of many forms of assault you might reasonably be alert for.

                      A story breaking in NY this week is of a gang of women (referred to in headlines as “strippers”) cozying up to men in hotels bars, dropping “Molly” or similar drugs in their drinks, taking them to strip clubs where they run up huge credit card bills (and receiving the “working girl’s” usual kickback) while taking compromising pictures of their victims for use in blackmail later. In some people’s (alleged) minds there would be no problem if these women accused their victims of rape … or threatened to, because, y’know, #YesAllWomen.

                      There are, for that matter, sufficient tales of women targeting other women for their boyfriends to suggest it is not simply an urban myth.

                      ANY human is a potential predator and you lets down your shields at your own risk.

                    • Ah, but there is a difference between being aware of your surroundings and viewing ALL men as rapists until they prove themselves not to be, so you guessed right. :-p

                    • Ah, but there is a difference between being aware of your surroundings and viewing ALL men as rapists until they prove themselves not to be, so you guessed right. :-p
                      ;)
                      Was 90% sure, but consider this as a “for the record” thing, since this IS the internet! Sometimes the obvious must be stated and agreed to….

                    • And we know how easily a misunderstanding can happen? ;-)

                    • @ T.L.:

                      Dandelion Buggering Knightstalkers…

                      Take heart. The image that sprang to my sleep-deprived mind was of armored ladybugs, besieging an aphid-covered dandelion.

                    • With — snickerdoodles!

                      I thought it needed a little more testosterone. And everybody knows snickerdoodles are laced with testosterone…

                    • @ Eamon – Snickerdoodles and bacon perhaps?

                      Or chocolate-dipped bacon?

                    • Aaaaaaaaand now it’s time for another Purge. :P

                    • That’s better than the visual I got, lemme tell ya!

                    • Everything’s better with bacon. :)

                    • The question coming to my mind is “what is with the homophobic slur?” If it wasn’t for buggery, gay men would have no sexual outlet (and the British Navy would have probably sunk at Trafalgar), so why does she think it appropriate to disparage buggery? It seems she views men who have no sexual interest in her as hateful and men who might have such interest as a clear and present danger.

                      To quote some fictional character whose name presently escapes: You say that like it’s a bad thing.

                    • Just to be clear, the description of my lineage came about primarily because of a political difference, not on a date.

                      Apparently, someone call tell a lot about a person by the fact that they think corporate bailouts and welfare are bad ideas. Who knew?

                    • If it wasn’t for buggery, gay men would have no sexual outlet

                      So you’re saying that homosexuality induces crippling arthritis in mens’ hands?

                    • Two thoughts came in succession (so to put, to coin a phrase)
                      1- I’m not touching that
                      2- no, it’s all the hair.

                    • *puzzled* Men have no sexual interest in whom? And whoever this ‘who’ is, she sounds stark raving mad.

                    • Thank goodness for video, because case isn’t one of sexual assault or rape either. BUT SHE FEELS SHE WAS.

                      The thing that has me wanting to beat her with a clue by four the size of the moon is: Why is it the crazy hosebeast thinks it’s totally okay for HER to get drunk to the point that she doesn’t remember stuff when she wakes up, but it’s not okay for the guy to do the same? And why is it it’s the GUY who has to pay for consensual sex she enjoyed, was filmed enjoying but regrets because the videos are all over the bloody Internet. Lucky for the guy it was caught on film.

                    • The world is getting weirder. The guy was indeed lucky. This would make me not date forever. This and stories of women stealing semen to get pregnant. I’d rather take a shield and short sword and fight in a shield wall.

                    • If we could only perfect parthenogenesis men would be in less danger.

                    • Haha No. I’ve three kids and nothing beats that feeling of pride and love of having kids together with your wife. Wouldn’t want that to change.

                      People just need to take responsibility. Men should be careful, as should women. There are bad people on both sides. My comment was more a reflection on how bizarre things are today.

                    • On BOTH sides? Son, there ain’t but one side, that of womyn, and you ain’t on it. Everybody knows that there ain’t a thing wrong with women what ain’t on accountta some man doing her wrong.

                      Afore you try to rebut this, you need to sit yourself down and remember that logic and reason are tools of the Patriarchy, used to oppress womyn and deny them the power of their intuition, their way of jus’ naturally knowin’ because men are so scared of real womyn.

                      Shoot, now where did I leave that mental floss? I think I need the mentholated kind.

                    • Dang! I should get out of my bubble, huh?

                    • That brough to mind the Anime series Vandread. One of the first to utilize computerized animation — there are some lovely space battles along the way.

                      From Anime News Network:

                      Plot Summary:: In a universe were men and women are mortal enemies, Hibiki is captured by a band of female pirates. The group find themselves stranded with a super ship they dub the Nirvana and set out for the female home planet. Along the way, they discover the existence of the “The Harvest” and the possible destruction of both men and women.

            • Jordan S. Bassior

              NOW I understand why Bradley’s characters always seemed a bit “off.” This is horrific.

        • BobtheRegisterredFool

          I’m a bit peeved with the wonderful example of a human being I’ve been discussing things with at Larry’s.

          Him: Vox is going after gays.

          Me: Look at the sources.

          Vox.

          Me: Here are the bloody links to the sources I named, that should not have been hard to find at all.

          Thank you, look at them later, Vox poisoned the well.

          Perhaps I’m being rude or incorrect in my summary.

          Have I ever told you that I always make good use of my time? I don’t think I have said this. This feels like reason to think my decisions about how I spend my time are not always optimal.

          • I think part of that got deleted.

            • BobtheRegisterredFool

              What I wrote looks like it is all still there, perhaps I’ve just done a horrible job writing stuff.

              • I understood that to be a five-part conversation, “Him: ___ Me: ___ Him: ___ Me: ___ Him: ___”. But that’s just a guess, since two of those sentences didn’t have the word “Him:” in front of them. That’s probably what confused Foxfier. Confused me, too, and I’m only 90% sure I’ve got it worked out correctly.

                • BobtheRegisterredFool

                  So I wrote a terrible summary then. The actual thread is nine posts, eleven if you count Wes’s bookends, over in the most recent massive comment post at monster hunter nation.

                  Vox’s analysis linked directly to the above mentioned “It’s Worse Than I Knew”, and fully quoted Moira’s email to Dierdre.

                  Choosing to respond mainly to Vox’s handling struck me as suggestive.

                  On a different note, going off of the Goldin timeline, and wiki’s bibliography for her, she may have had as few as a half dozen, dozen books out before we can be fairly certain MZB was doing vile things. I may be inflating that number.

                  • So he made a claim, you said “hey, look here, I gave you a link to the whole thing you lazy fellow” and he responded “Maybe later, Vox poisoned the well”?

                    Always hard to do conversations; I usually end up putting double-returns between people, and single-returns for different things a person says.

                    • BobtheRegisterredFool

                      More or less.

                      Vox had the link right there. I mentioned ‘looking at sources’, Moen, Greyland, and Goldin by name, and that Vox had the link, and then finally got all the links together and posted them myself.

                      He went to the trouble of quoting the first sentence, just before the one with the link, and shortly before the section with Moira Greyland’s letter.

                      I don’t think reading is that much easier for me, or that I work that much harder than average.

                      If I ever need to do a conversation again, hopefully I will remember your advice.

              • Oh my head. He did the “I’m wary of reading that kind of site ___insert reason/experience here” while implying that it IS that kind of site and by structure and implication conflates that the site denouncing MZB’s actions and the site he avoids due to Bad Experience ™ Are The Same Site by jumping around from mentions of the MZB site and then the Site With Bad Experience. You didn’t fall for the trap though.

                No, it’s not reading comprehension, it’s a verbal legerdemain.

  9. Colorado Alex

    I hate the “right wing / left wing” model. I much prefer a triangle with corners marked “equality”, “rule of law”, and “personal freedom”. Most people fall along one of the edges, balancing between two ideas and discounting the third. For example, the “right wing” in the US tend to cluster along the rule-of-law/personal freedom edge, while the left clusters along the equality/personal freedom edge.

    • Paul (Drak Bibliophile) Howard

      What does “equality” mean?

      Does the fact that Sarah Hoyt is a better writer than me mean that I’m not equal to her?

      If somebody has more money than me, does that mean that I’m not equal to that person?

      The Left talks about “equality” but their “equality” seems more to be “knock those people down so they’re equal to the less-equal”.

      • What is worse, they eschew the Harrison Bergeron route and seek to rank castes rather than individuals. For them it isn’t the content of your character, it is the character of your caste. Thus policies which oppress individuals are exalted for their enlightened treatment of “group wrongs.”

        The word for those who see people not as individuals but as representatives of (often arbitrarily defined*) groups is: racists.

        *See: white hispanics, asians = white, race/gender/caste traitor, etc.

        • I’m mildly ashamed to admit that it took me this long to remember the name Harrison Bergeron. He was from the short story about the Handicapper General, right? Where everyone was made equal (on an individual footing) by dragging everyone down to the lowest common denominator?

          • That’s the one. If I ever get to teach a full US government course, I’m using that as reading material when we discuss types of national government (communist and/or pure popular democracy). That and Michener’s piece about the Pledge of Allegiance.

            • I often wonder about Vonnegut’s feelings about the Wall Street Journal running that on their editorial page (it was a single full length column) in the early days of the Clinton Administration. I am not familiar with the Michener piece on the Pledge, but am corny enough to like Red Skelton’s.

              • I have enjoyed Skelton’s bit many times, and yet…

                • I find driving libertarian scolds up the wall almost as much fun as stealing practices from the commutards and converting them to patriotic purpose. After all, in spite of its origins the Pledge is right about allegiance to <I<the Republic rather than to the government. Indeed, I often find allegiance to the Republic requires opposition to the government.

                  Just because the debbil conned us into putting apples on the menu doesn’t mean we must eschew applesauce.

      • Colorado Alex

        In short, yes.

        Equality is generally political, economic, social, etc. equality. Most progressives focus on one flavor. For example, feminism is supposed to be, at its basic level, attempts to eliminate inquality based on gender. Socialism/Communism is supposed to eliminate inequality based on class or economic status.

        I have no doubt that some progressive would argue that Sarah’s greater ability to write is due to some advantage that she had that you didn’t and propose a “solution” to fix the difference. This is basically what Nacy Pelosi tried to argue with regards to the ACA: that if people didn’t need to work for health care they could be free to pursue their passions fully.

        Personal Freedom is minimizing the restrictions on behavior.

        Rule of Law means predictibility in society and the legal system. I know that if I do X, the response will by Y.

        An example of the rule of law vs. personal freedom axis would be jaywalking. A pure rule-of-law approach would be “You can only cross at the intersection, when the light says so. No exceptions.” On the other hand, a pure personal freedom approach would be, “cross whenever and where ever you want, as long as you don’t interfere with traffic.” Most places have some sort of balance between the two.

      • And that’s what I’m working with on Through Fire.

    • left clusters along the equality/personal freedom edge.

      …I see no evidence of ‘equality’ in their agendas, only supremacy, and ranking according to how well the slaves perform for their masters’ approval or a caste system more rigid than the Indian ones. They are the ‘favored nobility’ while those who are willing to submit are peasants and the rest are untouchables. Their word ‘equality’ has no resemblance to what is defined by the dictionary and logic and reason as ‘equality.’

      • Agreed. We’re dealing with a synthetic equality, fabricated to meet social trends. Sure, it may have originated as a measure to correct historical imbalances, but, and this is my own flawed opinion only, it has evolved into a creature that is self-serving and agenda driven. It doesn’t strife for equality, but revenge.

        • Revenge and replacement of the perceived ‘dominant.’

          • Yep, which just means they know nothing, or they do but don’t care because agenda.

            • Why should they care? The don’t really care for the rape victims they stand on to raise themselves ‘above’ their enemies ‘morally’; they don’t care for the dead, or the true victims. They want MORE victims that they can point to as ‘vindication’ of their ‘justifications.’ That’s why they want to change the definition of rape to something fuzzy and easily perverted so they can control (or think they can control) … something.

              • Jordan S. Bassior

                As witness their opposition to teaching women how to actually defend themselves against rapists. That would lead to less victims, hence is to be opposed.

                • Or their frenzy when it’s suggested that evidence points out that a woman was not raped.

                  • The rejection of due process for those accused of rape (and insistence that self-proclaimed* victims) not be subject to cross-examination or even required to provide corroborating detail strongly suggests that the impetus here is power, not rape, just as the impetus for rape is not sex but power. Look at the readiness to convict Duke’s lacrosse players (and unwillingness to walk-back denunciations) to see this dynamic in clearest demonstration.

                    *Who may be actual victims but that isn’t the issue here

              • Funny, though, that they don’t seem to give a hoot about male victims of rape.

                See Dr. Helen, today: http://pjmedia.com/drhelen/2014/06/12/as-a-male-youre-supposed-to-enjoy-it/

                Fantasies aside, presumed willingness of the victim does not make it acceptable. There is a long list of things 11-year-old boys fantasize about doing that society agrees they dhould not be permitted. Drinking, driving fast cars, shooting off pistols and sex with women three times their age are only a few of the bad ideas on that list.

              • It’s a dangerous game.

                • They don’t give a crap. They’ll use the tragedies of either their own or others’ and use it to ‘win’ whatever they think it is they won, use it to oppress… and use it as a shield to keep them from being criticized.

                  • Two things come to mind:

                    Hard cases make bad law.

                    This is turning presumed innocent until proven guilty on its head.

                    • That was one of the reasons why I was so angry.

                    • Yes, hard cases make bad law, but look at the laws crafted by our head cases (and yet we elect them again and again.)

                    • Hard cases make bad law — head cases make even worse law.

                      Should have though of that first. Bother.

                    • I once read someone say, straight faced, that rape should not only be guilty until proven innocent, it should be prove not only beyond a reasonable doubt but behind a shadow of a doubt.

                      Now gone because the original post was a woman making an idiot of herself on the Duke lacrosse rape hoax, in January, and after the blowback the whole post vanished.

  10. There is a time it would have worked. It’s not that far distant. In my school days, it would have worked immediately and I’d have shut up SO fast. But even in more recent days it almost worked.

    Part of the difference may be the internet.

    I’m reluctant to contradict someone who seems to be very sure unless I’m also very sure, and on something fairly obscure that’s not very common. Heck, I’m reluctant to COMMENT unless I’ve got something to support it.

    With the internet, they can’t just sound confident and say whatever they want. People will go look.

  11. I’m actually about 20 years younger than she thought. In fact, closer to her own age than she thought.

    Do I get points for thinking, until recently, you’re about 20 years younger than me as opposed to roughly my age?

    • UM…. See, the thing is when I came to the US in 80 I picked up the lingo of people younger than I. So….

      • I actually visited Portugal in 1993. I stayed with friends there for two weeks in a lovely little coastal town (Not sure about the name). I think it was about two hours from Lisbon. Taught myself how to ask for beer in Portuguese (I’d try to write it, but I know my spelling will suck, so never mind), went to a three-story club–each level playing different music–and I visited the marketplace really early in the mornings to buy fish and other food stuffs with my friend’s dad for their supermarket. All-in-all, very memorable. Even met a girl there. We danced and kissed. Memorable, indeed.

  12. Warning: this is an entirely off-topic post: I have just finished reading “WINGS” and it is very, very good. Ms. Hoyt’s thought-provoking and sensitively written prose cover subjects from destiny to the Gods. SAH is not just a fine writer of Libertarian adventure, she’s an author of grace and class. BUY ‘WINGS.” BUY IT NOW! TELL YOUR FRIENDS!
    (We now return you to the regularly scheduled topic.)

  13. Several thoughts;

    Is Social Justice Warrior a good term for these twerps, considering that they are notoriously leery of weapons, dislike the military, and have little concept of discipline?

    I lived in Washington D.C. for a number of years, and not in the best neighborhood either. We parked on the street (no choice). In the several years that we did so, our car was broken into ONCE. During a blizzard, somebody broke the smallest pane of glass in the car and stole a winter coat off the back seat. Go with God, whoever you are; you needed it more than we did, and you cost as as little as you could.

    I was once told that “If you accuse someone of being a Nazi, and you are not dead one minute later, you have been refuted”. Sounds about right. Wish I knew who said it first.

    I have, for decades, responded to charges of Racism by saying “There’s nothing Racial about it, it’s YOU I can’t stand.”

    The Democrat Party was the backbone of the KKK in each of its incarnations. Nor has the party changed all that much. Al Sharpton is a photographic negative of a KKK Grand Dragon.

    • Is Social Justice Warrior a good term for these twerps, considering that they are notoriously leery of weapons, dislike the military, and have little concept of discipline?

      Well, actual “social justice” means “building a society that is just” (in the sense of “what is deserved by the person”), so why would the last part be any more accurate than the first part?

  14. Knoxtradamus

    Hi, this is a message for Sarah.

    Found a blog post on my daughter’s computer where you were talking about having eczema. I recently found a cure/help for my psoriasis. I built a tub where I can float, I mix one quart of apple cider vinegar with 1 cup sea kelp-and-aloe powder (in approximately 60 gal water), soak for about 1 hr per night. A temperature control on the tub is necessary, Being female you may want to weight yourself down to get completely submerged if it’s on other parts of your body. I also started taking turmeric supplements at the time of the great improvement, so that may be part of it.

    If you try it, I hope it helps. Enjoyed what I read.

  15. I think the reason so many vileprogs attack people based on their association is because the vileprog simply isn’t that bright. They can’t think too well, so they don’t think too much. Instead they offload all of their thinking onto some group, so the idea that someone that agrees with a group on A, B, and C will necessarily agree with them on X, Y, and Z isn’t very farfetched. But it’s utterly baffling to those of us who judge groups based on ideas, rather than ideas based on groups.

    For example, a few weeks back I came across a video advocating for a guaranteed minimum income, paid for by raising taxes and cutting the defense budget. In it he name-dropped Milton Friedman, obviously thinking that libertarians would reflexively support an idea advocated by Uncle Milt. What he failed to grasp was that Friedman wanted the minimum income to replace, not suppliment, the current welfare programs.

  16. I didn’t know that about Marion Zimmer Bradley. My sister and I read her books as children. Feels like I’ve been punched in the heart.

    • “The Ninth Gate” is one of my guilty viewing pleasures. But I haven’t watched it since I found out (very late) why Roman Polanski doesn’t return to the United States. Sometimes it is hard to separate an artist from his work.

      Artists, Musicians, and Writers are human and some whose work we admire and enjoy were not the most admirable in their private lives. But, when an artist is truly vile, is it right to separate his work from his private life? Do we judge the work on its own without any reference to its creator?

      That is a question to which I don’t have an answer.

      • I enjoyed The Ninth Gate because it was based The Dumas Club, a book I greatly enjoyed. Then the rape incident became news again and I thought, “You’ve got to be kidding me!” I haven’t seen the movie again. The same with Woody Allan. I like some of his movies, but then I read a letter his daughter wrote, and it sickened me.

        Art is good, but it’s not almighty. I like Mel Gibson and will always watch his movies, despite his character flaws. We are all human and different things inform our views. We deal with pain in different ways. But when it comes to rape and child molestation, for me, that is where I draw the line. I don’t want to support such people no matter how great their art might me. At the end of the day, art comes from a place inside of you and if you’re a pedophile, your art is tainted.

        • Kind of a “you support really bad stuff” vs “you personally did horrible things”?

          I know it wouldn’t be that clean, but it roughly fits where my line is…..

  17. There is no such thing as “a European Right-Winger” — the US killed them all off in 1945. What’s left is, well, Left.

    And so y’all know: I sent Denys those links on Bradley — mainly because I Fucking Despise Tor Books In General, And One Of Their Editors In Particular (no names, but the initials are “PNH”); so I take any opportunity to openly mock them for stepping on their own micro-penises.

    • I gather that someone posted this the other day. It may be even more appropriate now. From the British series The Fall and Rise of Reginald Perrin starring Leonard Rossiter as Reggie with Jeffery Palmer as his brother-in-law Jimmy:

  18. Oh, Sarah I agree with every thing you write. Now if you could just teach me diplomacy.

    Rereading that, people might think it was sarcasm. That’s my problem, you see. Everything I write is like a Zen Koan, it all depends on what the reader reads into it. So what do I do? I say a thing, and that’s when the fight starts.

    • Don’t bother learning diplomacy; the Liberal Intellectual Radical Progressives are perpetually simmering with outrage, ready to spew all over anybody who doesn’t chant the latest chants. Instead, pattern yourself on Mencken; learn to hit HARD and leave them gasping and afraid of crossing you.

  19. Off topic but, I just finished Sweet Alice. I found two typos. How do I get them to you?

    • Eh. I’m unlikely to pull a short story for two typos. I’m more attentive with novels, but there is about 1h of work involved in fixing/uploading and most shorts just about don’t sell, so…

  20. The entire idea that the “Nazis were right-wing” is reduced to 2 talking points:

    1) The Nazis wanted “The good old days.” Which is what reactionaries want. So they must have been right-wing.

    2) They fought communists, communists are left wing. See. Who would fight them except evil righties?

    3) The Nazis crushed trade uniions. Well yes. Because they were breeding grounds for their communist enemies. Not because the corporate owners were right wing. It was a PRAGMATIC move, not a philosophical opposition.

    The fact that the Nazis called themselves Socialists–repeatedly–and might have been fighting over whose vision of Socialism was right gets blank stares. Because “good old days=right wing.” But Stalin appealed to Russian history as well when it was convenient, you say. Blubbering ensues.

    Nazism was quasi-state run corporations backed by state functionaries, run from ministry offices in the government, with monopolies protected by the government.The profits were kept privately. So they get called ‘private corporations.’ The truth was they were about as private as the Dutch East Indies.

    The fact that the purveyors of eugenics in that era were almost uniformly leftist is also conveniently ignored.

    • Yes, I know…that was three talking points. Meant to go back and edit after. But quick-clicked reply. Sue my avatar. :P

      • Heh; no suing from me.

        I thought of a simpler explanation. The political chart someone linked recently has “conservative’ lumped in next to the Nazis. There are plenty of people who won’t bother to read HOW the chart is meant to be interpreted, and will simply point and scream “SEE!!!!!11 CONSERVATIVES ARE PLACED NEXT TO NAZIS! THEREFORE THEY ARE!”

        Ah! My eyes *catches them before they roll away*

      • Do you want to come in again?
        And how is the fanatical devotion to the pope?
        On the serious side, there is another point Nationalism. Nationalism is evil unless it’s Russian Nationalism, in which case it gets called Internationalism.

        • Indeed. Which is also hilarious because Stalin conducted his own personal war with the “international” element of communism, as defined by Trotsky. For Stalin, other communist nations existed as buffers against the west, or sources of slave labor.

        • Recently I followed a rabbit down a Wikipedia hole and ended up reading all about what set Trotsky and Stalin apart – no, the theory part, not the icepick part- and I think it’s relevant to understanding this nationalism thingee, and why the ahistorical definition of National Socialism as Totally Not Socialism remains so important to the left today.

          Basically, Trotsky believed that the Soviet Union as then constituted (around the 1920s or so) was predestined to convert itself into a bureaucratic oligarchy and then fall apart, unless there were also other successful communist revolutions everywhere else so the other richer new communist states could support Russia, until such time as the predicted miracle occurred and paradise ensued.

          Stalin, on the other hand, while theoretically in favor of World Communist Revolution and all that, didn’t want to sit around waiting for Italians and Germans and Frenchmen and Englishmen to rise up, throw off their chains, and start sending cash to Russia, so he followed the “Communism In One Country” theory, whereunder he could off as many Russians and subject peoples as he wanted in the name of perfection and workers uniting and the New Socialist Man, etc., while putting the offing foreigners effort in order to foment World Communist Revolution at a slightly lower priority, after he got a nice Dacha, and starved the Kulaks. This conflict led to the icepick/ice axe/sharp implement incident that ended Leon Trotsky in 1940.

          Note if you will, the nationalist nature of the result: Take control in one country, eliminate internal opposition, align the national industrial effort to fulfill national goals through centrally planned production, and force the population to comply, all for the future paradise predicted by approved party theorists.

          Wait, was that country Germany or Russia? I got lost for a second.

          The Eastern front was basically a doctrinal conflict between two branches of the same totalitarian utopian Marxian cult.

      • Here, when you do something like that, all you need to do is quote yourself, and then throw in the Monty Python reference: “Three! The Three Talking Points are…” and then it will look deliberate. :-)

    • Even simpler:

      3) The Nazis crushed trade uniions. Well yes. So did the Soviet Union.

  21. masgramondou

    For what it is worth UKIP’s economic policy at the last general election (which was the last time I looked at it) was remarkably Thatcherite, which makes it pretty libertarian. I’m not sure whether this has changed or whether the huge number of new UKIP supporters in the last few years know this. Some of their supporters also had trenchant things to say about the welfare state but I’m not sure how much of that got included in their manifesto. I will say that they are radically different to most of the European “far right” parties such as France’s Front National. The only one of which that I’m fairly sure was not advocating some form of state intervention in everything was the Vlaams Blok (or whatever they renamed themselves to) in Belgium.

    • Oh, this explains all the hatred.

    • I had been contemplating the tendency of the MSM (and Leftish politicians, but I repeat myself) to reflexively assign any insurgent conservative anti-authoritarian political movement as cryptofascist racist in its agenda. We saw their attempts to do this with the TEA Party, it was done with UKIP and Le Pen’s party and many others.

      In part this is because it serves the agenda of the party(s) in power, one of the perks of political power being the ability to define legitimacy in their opposition (e.g., the Occutards were a legitimate grassroots voice of Teh Peeple, even though the unions and Worker’s Rear parties were funding them, while the TEA were astroturf because Nancy Pelosi said so) thus to deny legitimacy to those who would diminish their power. In part this is because the pols in power are such twits as to honestly believe their blather and cannot conceive anybody would object to their racial division of the nation except for being racist. There are undoubtedly many more reasons the delving into of which would be exhausting.

      Boiled down: why, why, WHY would you believe the MSM’s (and Leftish politicians’, but I repeat myself) characterization of political groups seeking to diminish the centralization of authority? Yes, there probably are some racists involved; there are racists involved in every political movement. Just because there is some salt used in the making of ice cream does not mean that ice cream is salty.

      • Paul (Drak Bibliophile) Howard

        There’s another aspect. There are plenty of “Lefties” think of themselves as “Moderates” as well as thinking of themselves are representing the “Majority”. So anybody to their “Right” has to be a “fringe” group trying to force their “fringe beliefs” onto the “Majority”. Of course, the terms “fascist” and “Nazi” have lost their original meanings and to them those terms mean “fringe groups”.

        • Radio this morning mentioned that back in the 1990s, Dems and Reps voted party line about 75% of the time.

          Now Reps vote party line in the high 70s, and Dems … do it in the 90s.

          Yep, the Republicans are clearly becoming extremists.

          (He mentioned it because someone sent him a link to prove exactly that, titled “Republicans have become more hard-line.”)

  22. From Above
    Robin Munn commented on No More Cringing Now.
    in response to Shadowdancer Duskstar / Cutelildrow:
    When did a concern troll ever admit that the other people might have a point?

    There is a current tactic that boils down to “convey that you understand where they’re coming from and that you two really agree but are just saying it differently.”

    Been bitten by that a few times, since I usually think folks are hearing something different than what the other person is saying; thankfully, the person who uses it on me the most is freaking delusional about what I think and why.

  23. … that sounds similar to what happened over in the other blog to me.