Release School Control

I’m at LTUE in Provo, Utah till Sunday.  Yesterday was consumed by travel plus my having managed the singularly strange feat of losing my driver’s license en route.  In my defense I have resumed after an hiatus (mostly because I forgot to get the prescription renewed) a medicine that makes other people psychotic.  It just makes me ADHD and exceptionally ditsy.  It also makes me tell the truth in social circumstances, which means you’ll have to forgive me, particularly if you come to the con.  Basically, I hear myself say things and go “did I say that?”

I’m supposed to have adult supervision for the first two weeks (says so on the label) because otherwise I might not realize I am acting strange.  Well, I thought a three week interruption in the meds didn’t mean going back to it, and when I was being strange, I didn’t realize it.  And heaven knows what I did with the id.  If I get stuck in Provo Utah, I expect of detachment of you guys to break me out.

Anyway, before I get to the blog post today, if you’re a fan of the Dyce mysteries and want periodic updates and to be informed of releases, please send your email to subscribe to The Turpentine Addicts group at Elise Hyatt ( No space) at yahoo dot com.  If  you like the sf/f (in some combination) and want to be kept apprised of all releases there, indie as well as traditional, please send me your email to sa underscore hoyt at Yahoo dot com.

Now onto the reason I’m posting today, other than the fact that I got confused and put Amanda up yesterday — and yeah, I have a ton of guest posts and was going to cue one of  them — is that on the way from registration, I was forced to pass a CNN screen doing the “gun control” shuffle in reference to yesterday’s school shooting.

I don’t know the details of the case, other than this was a former student, 19 years old, and expelled for behavior issues.  The other thing I know is that most schools, if not all, are already gun free zones, so zones of total gun control, and not in the sense of keeping your booger hook off the bang switch.

And yeah, I know, people will say other countries don’t have school shootings.  What they can’t and won’t say is that other countries don’t have school violence, which trust me, they do.  They also won’t tell you that our school system is unique in a bunch of ways that might contribute to school shootings, things like the warm body policy, in which people aren’t really expelled except things are incredibly serious, etc.  Also the expectation that everyone will go to school and graduate.  In some places it’s more expectation than reality, but it’s still an expectation.  We also don’t stratify into college and other tracks. This causes the school population to be rather different than in other countries.

Leaving all that aside, and knowing bloody zero about this particular shooting, has anyone ever considered that the reason for so much school violence and maladaptation (and not just shooting violence) is that school is not adapting to the new millennium?

I mean, has anyone, anyone who is even mildly odd, be it in intelligence (high or low) or just personality never wanted to destroy his school, classmates included or not?

I think it took me years after high school to stop having vivid dreams where I was trapped in school and trying to get out.

As Blake pointed out in the Mad Genius Club post last week, school is aimed at the middle of the personality and IQ distribution (this, btw, means it’s inherently better for girls, who, statistically, hunch there.)

I realize this might have been not only necessary, given the technology of the 20th century, in which schooling was only efficiently delivered in mass groups and in a standardized format, but also a desired outcome, since most of life was lived in groups and standardized, from the clothes we bought to the offices we’ve worked in, to the news we had delivered.

It wasn’t good, particularly for geniuses and morons, and people who were eccentric, but it was what it was for the world as it was.

However, in the dawn of the 21st century, why are we still doing it that way?  I homeschooled a kid and he mostly took courses on line, because I’m not a math genius, and I learned Greek on line along with him, since I did not know it.  Computers delivered his education the way he wanted it, needed it and could absorb it.

Yes, I’ve met “homeschooled” kids who weren’t, and who knew nothing.  I’ve met more of those as the result of public schools.

Locking people in a large group of the same age and letting the social mechanics develop along prison lines might enable, encourage and honestly cause some of this violence.  Sure some kids will need tutors and a place to work in, and yep, it’s in the interests of the common society to encourage and help that.

But standard curriculum?  institutional classrooms?  Solve the question of credentials by exams, and set the children free.  The adults too.
More and more public education is a solution in search of a problem.  And boy, is it finding problems.

Stop trying to enforce conformity.  Let my people go.




345 thoughts on “Release School Control

  1. “Let my people go.”? Good luck with that. Seriously the modern education system exists to try to get their meat hooks on as many young impressionable minds as possible. To mold them now into good SJW’s who have NO knowledge about history, geography, or science. Not to mention minimal math skills or reading skills.
    As to homeschooling, it only works if one parent has an idea of what their offspring needs to learn or what’s lacking in their education. Odds have that minimal advantage. What about those that aren’t odd and are also products of the system themselves?

    1. Ma was (is) rather traditional, though in the good way. Pa was odd and did some ‘aside’ teaching and some more outright… but the Big Factor was leaving the old (and *good*) textbooks around where a curious kid would find them and start reading. Yeah, the old books are dated and do have some mistakes… but it was a learn-at-my-pace thing automatically – if that was ‘too fast’ or ‘too slow’ wasn’t of import. My greatest grump then (and now) is the poor quality of mathematics texts. Those *should* the most universal things about, and yet… I have yet to encounter one that isn’t dismal.

      1. We used a curriculum called Right Start Math. It was pretty good, and involved a lot of “game teaching” where kids did activities using the math to understand it.

        Part of the problem with most math curricula is they don’t treat math as what it really is: a language for describing the world.
        Well, that, and math is a tool of the patriarchy and such. I mean, if the patriarchy creates reality, how are you gonna get around in it if you can’t talk like them?

    2. What about those that aren’t odd and are also products of the system themselves?
      Well, it depends on “how much a product”.
      Did they survive school and learn some basic academic skills? Then they can probably homeschool.
      Did they absorb the propaganda, and yet learn some basic academic skills? Then they can probably homeschool, but won’t because they’ve learned to be drones.
      Did they fail to absorb even enough to become teachers themselves (who are the consistently lowest average academic achievers in college)? Then they will likely surrender up their child to the system.

      Though, we knew one family whose mother homeschooled them, and she had some of the worst life skills (including a severe lack of critical thinking) of anyone I have ever known. The kids, though, seemed to do well enough.

    3. Actually, modern education exists to perpetuate an established bureaucracy. As an interesting exercise, check out the working digs and salaries of teachers on up to school boards and state and federal offices. A good indicator where the money really goes. Then consider funding is often dependent on the number of students.

      As to know-nothing students, the sad thing is that it’s very hard for a teacher to teach what they do not know. Yes, it can be done if the teacher learns along with the students, but it’s hard. At a family gathering, a family member going to college to be a teacher expressed amazement that some were having difficulty with the material (science). I asked if these same students planned to be science teachers, and the look of absolute horror was something to behold.

      1. Kevin said, “I asked if these same students planned to be science teachers, and the look of absolute horror was something to behold.”

        I saw the same thing with my peers in my college math classes. I loved the math field, loved the classes; all the others were planning on being math teachers and had nothing but trouble learning the material. One of the students went on to teach high school math at my old high school. I never expected anything good from that teacher, alas.

        1. One of the ‘thank God we moved to Texas’ reasons: when we ask the kids here in town what their favorite school subject is, they answer, “Math.”

      2. I beg to differ. The modern US educational system exists to perpetuate the educrat unions. This is why they hate charter schools, school choice, and private school.s

        1. exists to perpetuate the educrat unions
          And you don’t see that as a part of “an established bureaucracy”? It fits in there rather nicely, imo.

          But, yes, the unions hate choice because it depopulates their centers of power and $$$.

          1. As always, follow the money.

            Regents putting vested interests ahead of New York’s kids
            Once again putting vested adult interests above the needs of New York schoolchildren, the state Education Department and Board of Regents are suing to try to stop alternative teacher-certification rules for some charter schools.

            The new rules, OK’d by SUNY’s Charter Schools Committee in October, only apply to SUNY-governed public schools. But they’re still a threat to the players (education schools and teachers unions) who win under the old rules.

            The suit should be thrown out: State law clearly lets SUNY set down the rules governing the charters it authorizes. Nor does the alternative system let just anyone start teaching: It requires both demonstrated subject knowledge and training in running a classroom.

            But it will let charters hire in hard-to-fill areas like science, technology, engineering and math without forcing would-be teachers to spend years winning a (largely worthless) degree in education.

            The lawsuit charges that the SUNY rules will permit “inexperienced and unqualified individuals” to teach and “negatively impact” student learning. Yet SED doesn’t explain why it’s been watering down its own teacher-certification standards.

            Nor does it offer a bit of evidence that its own certification regime correlates with good academic outcomes. In fact, plenty of SED-certified teachers are “negatively impacting” children across the city and state right now — because state law makes it near-impossible to get rid of incompetents.

            The whole point of charters is to allow experimentation — to give these independent public schools the freedom to innovate without suffocating bureaucratic regulations and union work rules.

            And the best charters (many SUNY-­authorized) have proved great successes, even as regular public schools in the same neighborhoods remain failure factories.

            The grim truth is, if the Regents and their SED minions were truly concerned about teacher quality, they’d be busy fixing their own rules.

            1. This – you beat me to it.

              It’s even scarier now in college. Every little snowflake in college represents 6 figures (give or take) of government loan money to a university – of course, the poor snowflake is on the hook for it afterward, but that’s their problem. And it means behavior that should get a number of snowflakes expelled is overlooked, and courses are dumbed down (to say the least) so snowflakes won’t drop out.

          2. Add to this that the Colleges of Education are populated largely by ‘students’ too dumb to pass a general Liberal Arts education even in this day and age AND too dull to make it in a ‘Victims’ Studies’ program (you have to be able to at least FAKE outrage) and you have a Perfect Storm of incompetence.

        2. The system is the union – they have colluded to set things up so that the payable metric is warm bodies in seats, vice any measurable results.

          As in any unionized setup, the union tries to get more pay for less work, with the difference that their goals have converged with those of the bureaucrats so they all just have to get kid to show up to get state money.

          1. And G-d forbid there be any metric holding teachers accountable for classroom deportment and learning. Which means the teachers who <Iwant accountability get driven out of the system.

            1. “And G-d forbid there be any metric holding teachers accountable for classroom deportment and learning.”

              What metric would you suggest, given that schools were being taken to court for “disparate impact” of any discipline policy?

              As long as we have a professional grievance industry based on identity politics, good luck.

              1. Exactly – the teachers have no ability to exert classroom discipline, which means the only people who will remain in the classroom are those okay with such indiscipline. The Teachers’ Unionis might exert some of their political pull to address this but apparently are okay with lack of members’ safety.

                And then there are stories like this:

                Teacher charged with abuse for allegedly forcing kid to stand during Pledge
                A veteran Colorado teacher is now facing criminal charges of child abuse and assault after allegedly forcing a young student to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance earlier this month, according to reports.

                Karen Smith, a physical education teacher at the Angevine Middle School in Boulder, allegedly made the unidentified student stand for the pledge by “lifting him to his feet by his jacket and removing him from the classroom,” The Denver Channel reported, citing police.

                Cops were called to the school immediately following the Feb. 1 incident, and on Tuesday Smith was formally charged in connection to the matter, officials said.

              2. What I’ve been reading about systems that hold the teachers accountable for student performance is that they’re praised/blamed for all students scores, even the ones that don’t show up for class. If you can get fired because Johnny didn’t show up for 90% of the classes so failed the tests, the strong temptation would be to just pass the little S.O.B. so he’s someone else’s problem. If he does show up and still fails because he doesn’t have the foundational knowledge from the previous year because that “teacher” had Posner-like competence, it’s still your fault.

        3. They hate charter schools, school choice, and private schools with the same burning fire as Taxi medallion owners hate Uber.

    4. What about those that aren’t odd and are also products of the system themselves?

      The booklets that they sell for “excelling in ___ grade ___” work just fine for getting what the schools offer as far as baselines, and even totally normal people will either go “dang, there’s something I don’t remember hearing about” or “gosh, I remember hearing this in school, and it’s totally a lie.”

      Add in a bunch of “all about ____” type books from the library for stuff the kids get interested in, and you’re good.

    5. As to homeschooling, it only works if one parent has an idea of what their offspring needs to learn or what’s lacking in their education.

      This is false. The problem of the school system is not that it teaches badly, but that it destroys the ability and desire to learn. Put a child in a homeschooling situation where there is little to no Official Studying, but is not being actively sabotaged and has some access to books / internet? Even in that famished soil they will thrive relative to the child imprisoned in the school system.

      One of the largest problems with the homeschool movement is that they mostly accept the same gorram false premises that make up the core doctrines of the public school system. They merely desire to Do It Better(tm). (to be fair this isn’t as bad as trying to Do It Better(tm) with communism)

      Those core premises are:

      1. Humans can learn when they are forced to learn something they have no interest in and is disconnected from anything they need to do.

      2. Humans can only learn when they are forced through a Great Plan put forth by Experts.

      1. I know that #1 is correct, though.

        I’ve lived it.

        Every child born has had to– because they don’t know enough to know what they’re learning.

        #2, that’s a tactic.

        1. Hmm, you are correct: I made an overstatement.

          It is possible to learn by force, especially when young, or when we can’t clearly distinguish the boundary line between memorization and learning (and we can’t).

          But the more forced learning happens the more the subject learns that “learning” is something unpleasant that happens to them rather than a constant process dependent on their actions.

          God help you (and them!) if the subject is someone who isn’t hyper-agreeable and eager to please. It doesn’t take long for them to start resisting the learning, at which point it’s game over.

          1. +1

            Geeking out over stuff definitely makes it a lot easier to learn– we very much agree on kids needing a chance to learn something they *like* so they learn that learning doesn’t mean pain, it’s just…information.

            Part of that can be fixed by any parent– if the kids seems interested in something, look for opportunities to work it into normal life.

            For example, the other day my daughter was talking about making a car big enough to carry a whole city or something similar, we got into discussing logistics and such, she mentioned wanting to see an elevator so you can get wheelchairs into a car– so when we passed a guy who was driving his wheel chair off, I made sure she saw it.
            They noticed me doing this, and we got to have a quick conversation with the folks who were kind of amused to see a kid all excited about how an “elevator on a car” worked. 😀

            1. I didn’t do well consistently in school* until I mastered the trick of geeking out over what I had to cover. Accounting, for example, becomes much more interesting when you approach it as area specific legal theory.

              Learning to want to learn is the hardest thing, and is actively discouraged by our pedagogy.

              *After mastering that trick? Two Bachelors’ degrees, magna and summa cum laude and a Phi Beta Kappa key. It all gets much easier when you focus on mastering the subject matter and let the grades come as they may.

  2. If I get stuck in Provo Utah, I expect of detachment of you guys to break me out.
    Aren’t you right at home there? Great rack and all?

    1. Is it anywhere near Yard Moose Mountain? I expect the Denizens of Hate could be of some assistance there,

    2. It bothers me to even be able to think this, but there’s a political party in this country, whose members dominate the FBI leadership, who find school shooters useful political capital…

  3. Yes, I’ve met “homeschooled” kids who weren’t, and who knew nothing. I’ve met more of those as the result of public schools.
    Sadly (in one sense), those who are “professionals” at education have an overall track record much worse than us amateurs.

    And, for most of them, they’re doing the same thing the homeschooler is doing: following along an approved curriculum, checking the answers against the back of the teacher manual, and administering tests someone else wrote. (The homeschooler is more adept at catching mistakes in the back of the manual and in the tests, though.)

    I don’t think I want to see the once-SF ideal of everyone taking their education at home, from the computer. That way lies making non-Odds into very(-bad)-Odds, and some Odds into worse-Odds. But, a mixture of computer-aided, self-guided instruction with classroom (we were part of LOTS of co-ops in 16 years of homeschooling) teaching and ‘adventure’ schooling* would be best. And it could be adapted based on the individuals.

    (* ‘Adventure’ schooling is one of the great advantages of homeschooling. Turning a trip to the amusement park into teaching moments**. Going to the zoo. Spending recess time at the park, followed by a class on weather right there, in the open. Going to museums/historical sites. Etc. Heck, even a lunch trip to the local diner can be a teachable moment. “Field trips” is what the schools called them, but they aren’t nearly as frequent as they used to be.)

    (** Holy moley, do you know how much school you can pack into an amusement park trip?!? Math (including statistics), physics, chemistry, biology, psychology, life skills……. It’s a teaching smorgasbord!***)

    (*** Look! Sub-parens, without sub-parens! 😉 )

    1. Yes. We didn’t home school. But we sure after school supplemented. The “write what you did during the summer” was not a line or paragraph. More like an essay, even in grade school. We even repeated most the trips. What a 6 or 8 year-old gets out of Dinosaur National Park or Yellowstone VS what a tween or teenager … Then there are the museum, aquarium, submarine, zoo, amusement park, etc., trips, some with sleepover programs. Any extras like math, physics, etc., we included anyone else around who wished in the conversation, whether they started with our “group” (family, scouts) or not, & the staff at the exhibits always assisted; made an interesting dynamic.

      Less dynamic (cute) as kid aged. But you stick around an exhibit long enough for a small child start talking actual facts to his peer age & older adults as they start coming to the exhibit, engaging them on the facts. It’s adorable. Said kid soaks up the facts & maybe you spread the curiosity & process.

      1. Every parent should subpliment what their children are taught in school. More than once we had an impromptu history, science, or math class. And sometimes you have to correct misinformation.

        1. My parents hauled Sib and I out of school for two weeks to tour Civil War battlefields after they found a glaring error in my social studies textbook. And that district let them, gave us homework in advance, and said, “Just keep a journal of what you learned.”

          1. Bad facts, especially in regards to the US Constitution, are my hot button. This is not the same as opinions based on sound facts, as that’s going to vary. Bad facts about the US Constitution has me breaking out the text and reading the portion aloud. It was a terrible synopsis of the 10th Amendment that had the kids start hiding their history textbooks. To be honest, I don’t know if the teacher taught them this or if it was in the textbook, or if they misunderstood the teacher. But it still caused the history textbooks to disappear.

            1. I know what you mean: I actually saw a book that said the U.S.S. Constitution has triple knees. Triple knees! Why, next thing you know they’ll be saying her scantlings are thumbed.

              Oh, wait, you were talking about the United States Constitution.


              1. Actually, that brings to mind a college US History textbook that claimed WWI Allied pilots refused to wear parachutes out of bravado. Except Eddie Rickenbacker wrote that they were denied parachutes from fear they would waste airplanes.

                1. The US was following the Brit’s lead – His Majesty’s Generals thought that giving the young pilots an “out” by issuing parachutes would reduce their fighting spirit.

                  The Kaiser’s generals, on the other hand, issued parachutes to their fighter pilots as soon as they became practical, and no one ever observed a lack of “fighting spirit” in the Kaiser’s pilots.

        2. Problem being getting kids to ask questions.

          An awful lot of school and even exhausted parents is “how can I get him to shut up for just five minutes?”

          The kids know that I do like talkign to them, I just need some time to stop sometimes.

                  1. I’m a teacher and I have smartboard in my class. My students often ask me if we can go up on the Net find the info. Most of the time i’ll oblige and the class becomes wideranging. They’re alert and motivated.

              1. Most of our teachers would assign such as a project, encourage class debate on what we thought was the answer, and turn us loose on the school library to find out.

    2. -I don’t think I want to see the once-SF ideal of everyone taking their education at home, from the computer. That way lies making non-Odds into very(-bad)-Odds, and some Odds into worse-Odds.-

      I waffle on this. I think public schools are the best way to take Odds and make little Hitlers out of them (“One day, I will SHOW them ALL!”) Just about guaranteed to take the very bright, liberal arts leaning kids, who easily imagine themselves superior to their classmates, and turn them full SJW. I was lucky – I went to a huge school with lots of super bright kids, and I also had good friends who showed me that character is more important, but some of the most messed up kids I’ve ever met were the one super bright kid in a rural school.

      1. A supportive family is very important– and these days, the parents aren’t supposed to be that involved.

        (Both sides of my family have a heavy sprinkle of Odds, though some got well off enough to be ‘eccentric’. 😉 )

        1. Joke was when youngest sibling graduated HS (1979), the staff broke out the Whiskey. “Joy oh Joy, last of are gone means MOM is gone!”. I think staff that was still there when one of my siblings kids went to the same HS & they realized who Grandma was. It was “Oh Carp. She’s Back!”, then it was “Oh double Carp, someone learned from Mom, & she’s a teacher too!” … oops. Pretty sure the whiskey came out, again, when sibs last child graduated the HS (2015).

          FWIW. We were not trouble makers, had to toe the line, & pretty much ran under the radar; toeing the line went double for the teachers & staff. Mom is not shy about sharing her opinion, & her voice carries without raising it.

          1. *double-checks she didn’t write this*

            Have I mentioned how cool but scary it is how many folks here have similar stories?

            My mom had the school in terror after a teacher– who was already on her cheap fertilizer list because he tried to get me in trouble when I asked the obvious (to anyone who’d been in Oregon) question about what the heck the Antelope all over down there were, if there were no antelope in the US*– really crossed the line when he stuck her with every single trouble maker and a bad map on a field trip. Looking back, I think he was trying to “show her.”

            Oh, boy, did that backfire. And she’d been a teacher for at least half a decade longer than he had, at much more dangerous schools, so she knew exactly what the rules were, and what he’d done to screw up.

            Which meant that the vindictive twits had to take three years off to deal with my siblings and me, because we would in total innocence “remind” them of stuff they wanted to ignore.
            She scared the normal teachers…until they figured out she wasn’t a hell-on-wheels like the twits insisted, she just wouldn’t let people cheat.
            The math teacher who thought she was a terror for three months is now one of her best friends because she found out mom is honest and was just as hard on us kids as on the teachers, just not reflexively trusting the teachers.
            (Some of the notes they’d exchanged COULD be read as having really nasty sarcasm packed into them, even though mom didn’t mean that.)

            * He didn’t know enough to explain that the American antelope had been given their own group, separate from the “true” antelope of Africa to which they are related. I think it translates as something like “american antelope,” even, can’t remember.
            It literally would’ve taken opening a dictionary to figure this out, but he tried to insist they didn’t exist.
            There was a mounted head of one in the local grocery store…..along with African antelope.

            1. 🙂
              i didn’t even discuss hubby. Who is younger than his older brother by 5 years. By the time hubby got to HS, the teachers, in every class, called his name, paused, “Is your older brother …”, “yes”, “don’t want any trouble out of you.” Except Shop, hubby had already done all the work, he’d done his brothers homework & tutored him to get him through HS. His brother to this day is not academically inclined, but give him a schematic he will have the item apart & back together & working better, with no left over parts. Hubby would have graduated HS, either 1969 or 1970, he won’t discuss it. Same Hubby that started getting a Math degree, intending to get his Masters in Math & get a teacher’s certificate. That stopped the first student teaching gig. He finished it, changed majors, his words: “No, Hell No, Just No.” & down hill from there.

              Yet hubby is the best coach & Scout leader a kid could have. Kids liked him. Parents sometimes, not so much. “So what my kids missed. He should play first this game.” Nope. Kids started in line up, everyone knew their place, where the line stopped prior game is where it started, if you missed your turn, you missed it, the kids knew that, considered it fair. Also, kids knew better than to act out. FWIW. These are also the parents whose kids couldn’t do Sports & Scouts because they were too busy with Sports. Uhhh, at least until HS, hubby was their coach & was also one of their Scout Leaders, so no conflicts. To a kid, not one of them played HS sports. Also, FWIW, our kid did letter in HS sports: Cross Country, Golf, & Electric Car racing (car he help build FYI), AND he is an Eagle Scout that started scouting as a Tiger. Our problem as parents – We got “our” time when kid turned 18 & headed off to college.

            2. Did not have this problem at all. One benefit of living in a rural area is that everyone knows just about everyone else, and this includes teachers. It means that teachers know the parents. Some of us even tutored their teachers when they themselves were students. That, BTW, seems to embarrass kids.

              It brings to mind a student proud to learn her teacher taught not only her mother but her grandmother. Then it hit that she taught her grandmother, and she looked up and said “Good Lord, you ought to be dead.”

    3. We homeschooled our kids for a good while. We had issues with the schools our kids went to and pulled them out. We especially had problems with the school and their treatment of our Aspie son. To say that they refused to follow the IEP and kept stringing us along. When we pulled our son out, after 3 months of struggling to get them to actually do what they agreed to do (providing a laptop for son’s use), they finally called to tell us it was ready. I just laughed in the ladies face over that one.

      As for learning, we had copies of the SOL requirements and then tailored the material towards each child. We used copies of the school’s text books that we added to (added a lot for several course).

      We loved to supplement with activities around the area. Living in central VA, we have a lot of Civil War and revolution era historical sites within 5 minutes to 2 hours away. Helped spark a love of history in all of them. For that matter, the eldest son is studying to be an archaeologist because of that love of history. Every where we went was a teaching moment, even doing the grocery shopping.

      During this time, the kids (and Mom) wanted to compete at the state fair. My wife and oldest son won first place in their divisions for a spelt/kamut honey wheat bread. The boys placed 1st and 2nd in their division for cookies made with the spelt/kamut mixture. When we went up to see the exhibits and check out their standings, the kids were complemented on their excellent behavior.

      1. “they refused to follow the IEP”

        Drives me nuts when I see that. One of the nicest things about the school my kids are in is that it happens to be the best school in the area for the issues that we have. They’ve been so on top of the IEP that they’ve just modified it to include the speech issues, simply because from a district standpoint, he’s going to move past the level where he “needs” the IEP for the schoolwork, but they think he could use assistance beyond that point. (Note that it is entirely accidental that we ended up within walking distance of the school that happens to have a lot of experts for ASD. God is looking out for my kids.)

        1. Similar thing for us. My kid did not need IEP. But, we are in the same community I grew up in; we are 1/2 N of the house I grew up in. Within walking distance between 2 grade schools, in two (2) different school districts! Was not looking at schools or districts when we were house hunting, no kids, having difficulty getting them, not looking promising. A month before closing, found out, yep, kid on the way. We were in the “wrong” district, at least from years before; the one we were in was considered the “poor rural stepchild”. Oh well, we have at least 5 years before that is important, lets settle in. Now, & for the last 30 years (or so) that “poor rural stepchild” district has been fighting off getting absorbed by the larger district. Essentially it’s “you refused to take our kids 70 years ago, drop dead.” It’s all about the money. “Rural” (not really so much rural anymore) has it, bigger district doesn’t. We’ve been in the same house for 29 years now. My sisters’ kids went to our old HS in the bigger district. My son went to the smaller districts only HS. General education & academic opportunities the same. Extra opportunities, our son still had more options, including shop class where they built electric racing cars from scratch every year. Should the districts merge? Money wise, yes. Duplicated dollars spent on administration, extra services, school boards, etc. Other non-monetary intangibles, no, OMG no. Remember I grew up in the other district. But I raised my son in the smaller one. Smaller one wins.

          1. That’s suboptimal. They’ve been doing speech therapy for him to the limits that they can—right now they’ve sent us a referral for our health insurance to evaluate him because they can’t fix the tongue thrust. Note that he speaks pretty clearly, but they understand that other kids can be brutal and are trying to get his speech clear and normalized so it’s one fewer thing to make him seem different. (He’s fourth grade, and it’s the age when kids really start doing the self-segregation based on body language.)

    1. One useful thing:
      the local law enforcement knew this guy had Issues, knew something like this was coming…and was totally helpless to do anything until he carried out the threats.

      Seriously, the guy was 19– that’s a legal adult. Are deadly threats not illegal in Florida, so long as you’re in a school?!?!?

        1. Well, isn’t that par for the course: The authorities always tell us to “see something, say something,” while in each of these cases they ignored all the people who saw and told.

          And then after each of these atrocities, those same “authorities” act surprised that it happened, and then tell us they’re helpless to stop the perps ahead of time without more useless laws and more infringements on our civil liberties and less due process and a whole bunch of other things they’ll ignore the NEXT time there’s a perp about to shoot up a school or other Victim Disarmament Zone.

          While “protecting and serving” the hell out of the rest of us, of course.


          1. Did you see the case in Everett where the grandmother found a rifle, then looked for the kid’s journal, and managed to get the cops to issue a warrant? The kid was planning a major school shooting in great detail, and it was stopped because they actually paid attention. (This happened on Tuesday.)

        1. Depending on the state laws– I know Washington does this*– if he’s still enrolled in school, they have to pretend like he’s a kid with a supportive family, rather than a criminal.

          Ditto on the mental health thing.

          I feel really sorry for the family who took him in– you take in the newly orphaned friend of your kid and then a month or two later you’re dealing with “the school shooter lived at your house”.

          * when we started home schooling the Princess, the “shut up I win” card was pointing out the disabled girl who’d been raped, by a known serial rapist, who was put in the school without telling anybody but the principle that he was a known freaking forcible rapist, because he hadn’t graduated and had a “right” to an education without being eyeballed. Or something. The girl was not as disabled as he thought, and she told a teacher who hadn’t been told, who called the cops. Not sure what would’ve happened if she’d told the principle, and don’t want to imagine it.

          1. Nor I. The Great Lesson of various interactions with school/uni officials is that to get anywhere, Step One is to BYPASS them and go right to the cops.. and then you at least have something of a chance.

          2. Oh, its easy to imagine what would have happened if the principal (principle?) had been told. He would have told the girl that she’d lured him or shit like that, or swept it under the rug, because then he’d have had to take responsibility if he did the actual right thing.

            1. Or “in school discipline.”

              Or threaten her parents with punishment for having sex on school grounds if they wanted the rapist punished…..

              See why I didn’t want to start thinking?

        2. Or possibly the do-gooders had hamstrung the cops, imposing so many regulations and restrictions (see the history and facts regarding “stop ‘n’ frisk”) that there were no steps they could legally take?

          Deputies called to suspected shooter’s home 39 times over seven years
          Before Nikolas Cruz carried out his mass killing at a Florida high school this week, police responded to his home 39 times over a seven-year period, according to disturbing new documents.

          Details about the calls to the Broward County Sheriff’s Office — obtained from police records by CNN — were not immediately available and it was impossible to determine if all involved Cruz.

          But the nature of the emergencies at his Parkland home included “mentally ill person,” “child/elderly abuse,” “domestic disturbance” and “missing person,” KTLA reported.

          And a schoolmate, Brody Speno, told the network that cops were called to Cruz’s home “almost every other week.”

          “Something wasn’t right about him,” Speno told CNN. “He was off.”

          Speno said he knew Cruz from elementary school and described him as “an evil kid” who was “always getting in trouble.”

          Cruz — who posted images of himself on Instagram posing with guns and knives — has confessed to killing 17 people at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland and made an alarming online comment about a recent mass shooting.

          “Man I can do so much better,” he wrote.

          1. RES, when you have an environment where a Chicago police lieutenant would rather take a beating that put her in the hospital than shoot a perp who manifestly should be, because it’s less painful than what the legal and extra-legal system will put her and her family through after she does the legal thing, the actual written law matters not one tinker’s damn.

      1. see the above “evil kid” stuff. I knew a few wastes of oxygen who are now not bothering folks (one did himself in via car crash, the other killed while in jail, for rape I think) but if given three choices to annoy folks, they’d create a fourth even worse one just to be an ass.
        Brings to mind:

        1. I’ve seen one report that the shooter had claimed “demons” had instructed him in planning the action. Put “cruz demons shooting” in your search engine of choice and you’ll get over 10 million results.

          It’s an explanation, shouldn’t get him off. I do wonder what meds he might have been taking.

          1. To be clear: I am not saying I believe he was listening to demons, I think the demons simply told him to say that to help cop an insanity plea.

          2. I wouldn’t be surprised if he had been on meds (his mother had just died after all), and would not be surprised if he took them irregularly as well. Does not excuse the behaviour, OR excuse his actions in the least. He was a known problem, and the fact that the FBI chose to focus on partisan interests over a potential school shooter (he was reported to them) says MUCH.

            Ultimately this is why I think they’ll memory hole this guy.

          3. Yeah, if med related, Ringo’s prediction will likely happen.
            Hear much on the Vegas guy? Literally one of the last things I saw about him was he was on anxiety meds of some sort. Then it went all how’s he get all that stuff into the room with no one noticing, and then poof.

  4. Some of this comes from Mainstreaming, refusal to separate serially behavioral disruptive students, students who never should have been promoted, etc., & in some respects refusal to promote beyond grade those who intellectually are ready; & I am not talking about students that need an aid because they are physically disabled. The disruptive students hold everyone back, regardless of reason. Everyone becomes frustrated, those who are not held accountable ever at home (teachers are not allowed) who are not in the previous lists can then add to the problems. There becomes a toxic stew.

    The experts may be mainstreaming the classrooms, but I guaranty that toxic stew is NOT mainstreaming students socially, no matter what the policies are; makes it worse. Experts are going to point out that not everyone in this socially outcast becomes a classmate killer. My contention, it only takes one, once in a great while; rest are scared.

    What’s the answer? Park these kids in separated classrooms where they are ignored (what happened mostly when I was in school), heck no. But mainstreaming without accountability is not the answer either.

    1. Considering how kids in college act, even if you get good grades, nothing is being learned, except behaviour that leads to acts like this. Just listen to the leftoids when they talk about anyone not of their creed, and all this kid did was what they wish on others daily.

      1. That’s huge YMMV territory. You’re going to have the slackers and the party colleges. But I think these are in the minority – I’ve heard from too many serious college students. But those are not the students who wind up in front of the cameras.

        1. Colleges today operate on the Bennet family model of education. Remember the part in Pride and Prejudice where Elizabeth tells Lady Catherine that those of her sisters “who wished for learning never lacked the means; those who wished to be idle certainly might”? Well, that’s pretty much the modern university. If you want to learn, you can get a good or even great education with the resources available at pretty much any state university of liberal arts college. If you want to spend 4 years partying and leave with your degree as ignorant as you came in, you can do that too.

          1. But, that drives up the cost of said schooling, since the demand is high. (And there’s all that subsidization, too.) All those worthless degrees make your credentials worth less, too.

        2. those also are not the students the schools all to often cater to. It’s the screaming masses protesting along side the Profs of marxist bent.
          But even the “No, I really wanna learn this” kids are not getting what they need for the real world. Typical of leftoids who took over the works, they were taught bs because the reality is supposed to cater to the teaching, not teach them to live in reality.

    2. Expelling the kid at 18 is waaaaay too late.
      Never like the term, “expelled” either. What they should be doing is “transferring” the student to a school where their specific learning/social problems can be corrected.

      1. The flabbergasting part is where the YouTube person had that comment by one “Nikolas Cruz” about becoming a professional school shooter. He told the FBI, and current indications are that they did precisely nothing. “We couldn’t identify the poster” was the excuse. Eh???!!!??? (And after the shooting, the FBI suddenly was interested in the YT comments again.)

        I’m noting that comments to the article on this indicate most of the PJ Media commenters figure the FBI was way too busy trying to find dirt on the Trump administration to actually do their job.

        1. It bothers me to even be able to think this, but there’s a political party in this country, whose members dominate the FBI leadership, who find school shooters useful political capital…

          1. Yep.
            Now you’re getting an inkling about how I feel about the Boston FBI covering up their bad boy’s enabling wife’s uncle’s murder for 10 years.
            Decades of rot, spanning the entire country. And the FBI has enough power to make most people back down if they get too close to something. They really are our version of the KGB.

    3. Here’s something that’s generally not known about mainstreaming:

      There were originally remedial classes in school for those with learning difficulties. Then came integration. Now, from what I observed, the deciding factor in our school was actual learning issues. But a lot of schools suddenly found a suspiciously high number of black students assigned to remedial classes. In short, it looked like in-school segregation, and I wouldn’t be surprise if it wasn’t exactly that.

      Next thing we knew, we had mainstreaming. I strongly suspect it was to address attempts at in-school segregation.

      1. You are right except for the CAUSE. It wasn’t segregation. Those kids really NEEDED the remedial classes. BUT it LOOKED like segregation.
        And THAT couldn’t be tolerated. So they mainstreamed the kids and they never had a chance. The school didn’t care, they only cared that they LOOKED good.

        BTW: “Acting White” = good in school IS A REAL THING!!

        The best was when POC started warring the “X (under it) it’s a Black thing you wouldn’t understand” t-shirts, some students had t-shirts made up “Education – It’s a White thing. You wouldn’t understand” and wore them to school. But only for a few hours, they were sent home quickly.

        1. It is all evidence of Liberal Racism. They look at the segregated classroom and see skin color; others look into the classroom and see one-parent households.

        2. Some kids did. What I remember had black and white, with the most disruptive a white kid with severe problems. Yet I also remember some might good teachers integrated in from the “colored” schools, and some mighty smart students who came in, too. At our school, I don’t recall a greater percentage, along racial lines, of black students in special ed classes than white.

          What I recall was when it got out that some schools were putting all or practically all black students into special ed. That looked highly suspicious to us. It did to the government, too. Next thing we knew, there was main streaming. I don’t know if that’s why, but I’ve always suspected it was.

      2. I don’t know about the segregation issue. I suspect you may be on to something. Not a problem we had locally, diversity was not an issue, as in not much. That has changed over the last 50 years.

        What I do know is the original lawsuit for integration involved my cousin. She was physically disabled & needed an aid to use facilities & be there in case of medical emergency. Bright as a whip, but confined to a wheelchair. When she was ready to start 1st grade they were going warehouse her in special ed classes. Her mother had a fit. March of Dimes & a couple of other organizations were looking for the right test case. Bingo. OTOH. Don’t get my Aunt going about mainstreaming kids that should be separated, not just because they need an IPE, but because even with one, they are unmanageable. Her words “That WAS NOT the Intent!!!”

        1. “Her words “That WAS NOT the Intent!!!”
          While applauding your aunt’s intent (and success), this phrase shows up an awful lot after the correct remedy for one problem is force-fitted into the slot for one that requires a totally different approach.
          “Unintended consequences” follow 90% or more of all good-intentioned actions.

          1. My Aunt knows. This all took place when homeschooling really was not an option, plus not fair to the kid. Aunt, often enough was her in-class unpaid Aid, so it wasn’t that someone wasn’t home. The Internet & computerized classwork were not options (WAAAAAY before they were available).

            Bottom line. If a kid can’t behave in class. They don’t belong in that class (note, I didn’t say in-school). If an one-on-one Aid is what it takes to control the kid in class, great, that should be an option. But if even that doesn’t work, then they don’t belong in that classroom. Note, not saying they don’t belong in school, but consequences. Currently there are no consequences, or rarely are, short of suspension, which frankly, once these kids catch on to that, they learn they can get out of school by acting out. How is that helpful?

      3. “But a lot of schools suddenly found a suspiciously high number of black students assigned to remedial classes. In short, it looked like in-school segregation, and I wouldn’t be surprise if it wasn’t exactly that.”

        Of course that’s all it was. Just like standards for granting credit on home mortgages, or teacher tests that an eighth grader should have been able to pass, or every other standard based on what actually happens with real people. Barack Obama attended the same classes.

        “Next thing we knew, we had mainstreaming. I strongly suspect it was to address attempts at in-school segregation.”

        Of course that’s all it was. Just like affirmative action, or government lending guidelines. Never mind that all those “fixes” allowed for enormous graft and political manipulation.

        Of course, what you actually got was being unable to hold anyone to any standards, because when the fact that only those who didn’t belong to an Official Victim Group were having to follow them, the majority might realize they were actually second class citizens and do something about it.

  5. Weeeelll – as a nation, we seem to be laboring under the idea that graded classroom schools were a good idea at the time, but have since gotten a little off, and we need to fix them, somehow.

    How about this: graded classroom schooling was a) a bad idea from day 1; and b) does exactly what it is designed to do? This idea of segregating kids not by what they needed to learn but by age and then keeping in these age groups for long hours each day for a decade or more only dates to the early 1800s, and wasn’t common until the late 1800s.

    We’ve been snookered. Schools are the greatest single success of the people who want desperately to manage our lives for us, want an unthinking, easily manipulated population. Math? Make it boring and hard, because it’s a gateway subject to actual thought. History? Science? Philosophy? We needn’t trouble our little heads about that! Why, we might start getting ideas. It’s hardly a coincidence that the subjects that require real thought are the ones not only not taught well, but taught in such a way that your typical student can be counted on to hate them the rest of their lives!

    Here are my two favorite quotes, from, first, the philosopher who created the logic behind public schools and was head of the U of Berlin when the graded classroom model was created:

    ”Education should aim at destroying free will so that after pupils are thus schooled they will be incapable throughout the rest of their lives of thinking or acting otherwise than as their school masters would have wished.”

    – Johann Gottlieb Fichte, Addresses to the German Nation, 1809

    Second, the man running the US Dept of Ed during the time when one-room schools were being destroyed and replaced by ‘scientific’ ‘consolidated’ schools:

    “Ninety-nine [students] out of a hundred are automata, careful to walk in prescribed paths, careful to follow the prescribed custom. This is not an accident but the result of substantial education, which, scientifically defined, is the subsumption of the individual.”

    William Torrey Harris, 4th United States Commissioner of Education, from 1889 – 1906. (“subsumption” is a philosophic term of art from Hegel – it refers to contradictions suspended in a dialectic synthesis, not destroyed, exactly, but obviated – he’s saying proper schooling makes our individual rights obsolete.)

    Harris was pleased at how well it was all working – a century ago!

    1. Then there are the quiet ones. Do the work to get the A, but stay out of the way. I read fiction in class through Middle School & High School. Except Science, Math, & Spanish. Didn’t go as well first time through college, had to learn how to listen in class, take good notes, study, & ask for help. Never had to learn it before then. FWIW – a lot harder.

      College. Surprised the heck out of me that my first college was “left” leaning, then the program I was in was odd degree out (it has been moved left recently do to “environmental issues”). Second college, oh yes, no question, just plowed through, by then I’d learned to turn it back on them; was not above using every trick in their book – yea, try to take actually hard earned points away from the older pregnant lady, I dare you!

      1. Similar story. Took until 2nd semester Jr yr in college before I started getting the hang of it.

        Don’t know if kids these days could get away with reading quietly at the back of the class.

        1. “Similar story. Took until 2nd semester Jr yr in college before I started getting the hang of it.”

          Ditto. Plus age. Didn’t help that I was 17 when I started, at a time when the Vietnam vets were hitting college on the GI bill. Not only older in age (although some not by much), but a whole lot more in worldly experience. Then there were the “lets go study at the bar”, well that was one way to ditch me. I couldn’t get out of the car without getting carded until I was in my mid thirty’s, & my hair started showing gray before I was 30!

          My first degree GPA average was 2.33, guess how many A’s & B’s I had to pull my last couple of years to pull it up from 2.0 C average? I worked hard. My over all GPA, from both degrees now is around 3.4 … Question when honors given out … “How can’t you get any?” Ans: “3.99 GPA for just the one degree doesn’t cut it. They take into account your entire academia life after HS.” Then too, I was past most the “you must be rounded” classes by then.

        2. “Don’t know if kids these days could get away with reading quietly at the back of the class. ”

          Probably not.

      2. Why do the work to get an A? Do nothing at all, and you’ll move up to the next grade anyway, “keeping the age groups together.”

        1. Now. Bit older than that. Actually had to do the work. However did not have to participate in class (except Spanish).

          I actually had to, into the summer, 4th grade, to complete the times table tests in the correct amount of time correctly to be promoted into 5th grade. Could do the math, just not in the time required.

          Reading. Both 3rd & 4th grade forced books home from library for summer reading. Age 9, discovered something other than “See Dick, Jane, & Spot, run.” Off to the library I ran, and ran, and ran … well you get the idea.

        2. TRX, my mother was a teacher in AL through the 90s. They were told they couldn’t flunk someone more than one year for three reasons:
          1. They would not have the space or teachers for both the flunked and the incoming kids.
          2. Depending on how far they were able to scrape by, you would have older and younger kids in the same “class”. This creates problems between students. In my mother’s school’s 4th grade, one or more pregnancies per year was EXPECTED.”
          3. Frankly, they were a discipline problem for the staff, and a physical danger. They didn’t want to be there, the law required them to be there, and they were disrupting the classroom for those that wanted to learn.

          1. Flip side, my parents moved when I was in the 7th grade, and the new school district had one of those “keep the age groups together” policies.

            So I got put back into the 3rd grade.

            Mostly, they couldn’t understand why I wasn’t eager to re-do the same crap I’d already done and been graded on. “But you made an ‘A’ on it last time, why won’t you do it again?”

            “Because I *already* made an ‘A’ on it.”

            Mostly, it was simply repeating variations on the third grade until I was old enough to leave.

  6. Our system of education is particularly ill-equipped to serve the needs of truly exceptionally gifted children. My neighbors’ son is 4 years old; performing across the board at a 4th grade level. But because he’s still only 4 there’s nothing for him. His parents are frantically trying to find a program to meet his needs. Nobody will touch him. Now, if he has severe autism, there would be tons of resources. His parents were told that sending the child to a regular kindergarten would be the equivalent of having them both required to play Candyland for 8 hours, every day (the parents both hold PhDs and are cancer researchers). There is simply no curriculum for him. Nobody knows what to do and nobody wants to step up and try to provide support for this child. It’s very disheartening.

    1. Homeschool, dangit! If anyone is “qualified” to do it, it’s these folks. A huge part of that is letting the kid set the rate and scope of learning. There’s probably (depending on how adversarial your state is to homeschooling) a group of families locally who they can throw in with – then they can share duties, and the other kids get the advantage of a PhD cancer researcher teaching some things to their kids.

      It’s funny, because homeschooling usually turns into exactly what education used to be – a small community sharing the education of their children.
      It’s only when it becomes “scientific” that it seems to become problematic. Sorta like Marxism.

      1. Yes, I asked her about homeschooling; she is very reluctantly considering that option. She’s mostly concerned that he won’t have playtime with his friends – he’s super intelligent and all, but he still likes the social aspects of school and he’s spot on with non-academics (art, music, playtime, etc. for cryin out loud, just last week I ran into them at the grocery store and he was ripping his clothes off in fury b/c his mom wouldn’t buy him a doughnut – that’s the maturity level and she’s not sure how to provide the level of education he needs and still account for the fact that he still eats dirt.). But this may be the route they take for this child (other son in parochial school and youngest only 1).

        1. Well, there’s kids in college that are still eating dirt, if the amount of antifa bs coming from them is to be credited. So, she’s got that going for her. 🙂

          It doesn’t have to be personal Montessori Schooling. They don’t have to hire Einstein as a tutor. Just indulge his learning in the hours they have.

          As to socialization, there are co-ops (even for that young). And I’m betting there are neighbors somewhere around who homeschool. Find a support group online and start digging from there. (Or, there’s this newfangled thing, FarceBook or something, where if you post something publicly, everyone and their brother will feel compelled to give you their “hot take” on it. And some of those are bound to be actual homeschoolers.)

          And, they need to swat his behind, probably.

          1. … they need to swat his behind

            First Rule of Stores for Daughtorial Unit was that acting out would guarantee you not get what you are demanding. Surprisingly easy t maintain, surprisingly quick to learn.

            1. My daughter threw a tantrum[1] ONCE in a store.

              It was in the Target in St. Louis on Hampton and Chippewa, back in 2010.

              She threw herself on the ground kicking and screaming. Shoppers watching, the whole thing.

              My wife and I looked at each other, laughed and kept walking. That ended THAT little bit of manipulation pretty quickly.

              One time when she was about 12 or 13 months old she wanted a toy off the bottom shelf at a drug store. It was on sale for some really low price. The box was about half as wide as she was tall. So my wife says “if you can get it to the counter you can have it”. She played with that 4 dollar toy in her car seat for about a month before we took the wrapping all the way off. Kept her quiet in the car for a long time.

              [1] I differentiate acting out from not getting what she wanted from being overstimulated or overtired and cranky. The latter is (essentially) a neurological condition that they can’t do anything about and the underlying problem is (a) probably your fault, and (b) needs to be addressed. Attempting to manipulate me with your emotions is NOT going to get you the results you expect, and will be painful. My father once said, about spankings, this is going to hurt me more than it hurts you. It’s saddened me, but never “hurt” me.

              1. Yes. Son had a few. I was willing to stand there & let him. Got some funny looks, but half the time the tantrum was about being there in the first place. Okay, tantrum meant we had to stay longer, how’d that work out for you? Attempting to manipulate me motionally never will work. Got a lot of nice compliments on kids behavior. We’d just say “Thank you. We’ve got him spoiled, working on rotten.” 🙂 Only child.

                Never resorted spankings or time-outs. Didn’t have to. Trust me, we both were raised with the former, but not to extremes.

                Now pass raising my own child. When walking past an adult trying to reason with a kid having a tantrum (regardless of the reason), my comment is: “Oh. You’re trying to argue with a toddler & Loosing! Good Luck.”

              2. My father once said, about spankings, this is going to hurt me more than it hurts you.

                I know that (aside from the true psycho-parents) a parent stating this is telling the truth, but…..

                Is it just me or does this come off as a sledgehammer of manipulation? Getting an added psychological sting in on top of the rest.

                Anyone? Or maybe I have read too much about narcissists…

                (er, just to avoid implications: my parents weren’t Ns)

            2. Yep. Excellent. Whine and the answer is ‘no’. One of the few rules we have (well, had) with our 5 (as others routinely tell me – blush) extraordinary polite and well-behaved children. We were blessed, for sure, but we did our tiny part not to screw it up.

        2. In Colorado at least, it used to be that you could partially home school: teach some things at home while sending the child to school for others. So your neighbor could send the kid to school for art and music, then bring him home when it’s time to learn to multiply fractions. I think the state has cracked down on that since the last time I had friends in school (the teacher’s union HATED the part-time students), but it might be worth looking to see what’s available.

          Also she might want to look for support groups for profoundly gifted kids and their parents. They understand about kids who are intellectually operating at a high level, but are still 4-year-olds.

          1. Colorado is pretty good for home schooling. We’ve been doing it here since we moved back from Australia in 2013.

        3. There shouldn’t be any problem finding ways to socialize that aren’t during school hours. As pointed out above, there may be other homeschoolers, but the public school students will be out and about, too, and if one of the parents goes along (as of course they need to at his age), they can monitor the interaction and put a stop to things like bullying much more quickly than teachers would.

        4. If this gets posted twice, it’s Word Press’s fault.

          Unless you’re in a horrible, horrible state there are TONS of resources for kids to socialize with other (usually homeschooled) kids, both in a structured and an unstructured manner.

          There are homeschool field trips and co-ops. Once a week my daughter attends a “options” program here in Jefferson County which is run like a “real” school except that at 7 (when she started over in Alameda County) they were already changing classes/teachers like middle/high school.

          They can (and should) get the kid into after school programs like swimming lessons, martial arts (Krav Maga has a good program for kids that includes abduction…er…anti-abduction and anti-bullying training). As the kid gets older there’s stuff like Cotillion (look it up), Boy Scouts, etc.

          I had a school principal in my family bring this issue up. I informed her that yeah, there’s lots of peer socialization my daughter wouldn’t be learning. Like how to smoke pot, how to tie off her arm to get the needle in, how to bully other children, or how it feels like to be bullied. How to drink, sneak away for a blowjob.

          That shut her the hell up. I think it’s the first time anyone in my family has been able to do that. EVER. And she’s in her 70s. Of course everyone else is afraid of her. IDGAF.

          We’ve got my daughter signed up for a couple of local Charter schools for next year–mostly because while she’s at or ahead of grade level my wife isn’t willing or able to push her, she’s not willing to run ahead (other than reading. Nuts and trees) and she’s *really* being ungracious about being able to sleep until 7:30, being done with school by lunch time if she doesn’t mess around too much, and all the other benefits of being with Mom and me (I work from home) during the day.

          So next year she’s getting up at 6:30 and being sent to the cold hands of total strangers. Because there’s all kinds of educations.

          1. Well, there’s the old honeschooling joke about socialization….

            A dad was asked about the lack of socialization in homeschooling. He responded, “Well, I used to worry about that a lot, wondering if my kid was missing out on social skills I learned in school. So I started beating him up and taking his lunch money. I don’t worry about socialization any more.”

            1. Apparently Chris “How To Not Get Your Butt Kicked by The Police” Rock has returned to reality:

              ‘We Need Bullies’: Chris Rock Speaks Truth to Weakness in Tamborine
              Who said it: G. K. Chesterton, John Wayne, or Jordan Peterson? “We need bullies. Pressure makes diamonds. Not hugs. Hug a piece of coal and see what you get. You get a dirty shirt.”

              Buzzer sound. The answer is none of the above. Chris Rock said it, on his new Netflix special Tamborine. Rock isn’t a political conservative, and I doubt he’s ever voted Republican in his life. But in his one-hour standup routine he articulates a vision in which the harsh facts of existence are to be welcomed rather than bubble-wrapped, sexual morality is the core of a successful marriage, and men acknowledge their special burden to toil for others. Take out the “mother*****r”s, of which there are many, and you could almost be listening to an unusually sharp-witted pastor.


              “One of the problems with the world is we got too many people telling their kids how special they are,” Rock says, building up to a riff that is perhaps the high point of the entire hour:

              We need bullies. How the f*** you gonna have a school without bullies? Bullies do half the work. Teachers do one half, bullies do the whole other half. And that’s the half you’re gonna use if you’re a f***ing grownup. Who gives a f*** if you can code if you cry because your boss doesn’t say ‘Hi’? You think people were nice to Bill Gates in high school? “Hey, Gates, you Charlie Brown–looking motherf***er!”

              A little ostracism, Rock finds, can be a good thing: “That’s why there’s so many fat kids in school right now — because there’s nobody to take their lunch money.”


              Repackaged, Rock’s set could actually make for a Peterson-style self help guide — Rock’s Rules for Life. The world is harsh, so expect no favors from it. Be faithful and committed in your marriage. Reject porn. And if you’re a man, be one. Take responsibility. “I brought this s*** on myself,” Rock says. “You gotta learn some lessons, some man lessons. . . . There’s a coldness you have to accept when you’re a man, especially a black man.” Rock thinks “only women, children, and dogs are loved unconditionally,” whereas “a man is only loved under the condition that he provide something. I’ve never heard a woman in my life say, ‘You know, after he got laid off, we got so much closer.’” After all, when a man meets someone new, his friends ask, “What does she look like?” When a woman meets someone new, her friends ask, “What does he do?”

              The value of a man is tied up in his work, Rock says: “What the f*** does that n****r do that can help you out? Can this m**********r facilitate a dream or not?” The advice to men is sound: Think less about your grievances, think more about providing for others.

              1. Guess he remembered that humor is funniest when it hits close to truths, uncomfortable or otherwise.

                I wonder… was he single when he went from the “how not to get your *** kicked” thing to the victim whining?

                Was just thinking about guys doing really dumb mind-switches…and it’s usually because they’re trying to keep a gal happy. When they’re feeling secure, they’ll be their best selves.
                (Elton John shows it isn’t just gals, but that way lies waaaaay too many complications as far as roles go.)

                1. He’s realized that he shot himself in the foot, because the snowflakes don’t like his honest stuff and can keep him off most venues.

                  1. You severely over-estimate my belief in them having clues– that said, not going to click on twitter, it’s MADE for signaling, and RDJ is simi-famous for actually running his own instead of letting PR handle it.

            2. “Well, there’s the old honeschooling joke about socialization….”
              No wonder those kids are so sharp!

        5. Our 13 yr old son needs kids to socialize with, but, given that we live in the Bay Area, the pool of acceptable playmates is surprisingly small. Few kids, it seems, come from stable, two-parent (of opposite sexes) homes – while nice kids without a ton of baggage sometimes come from ugly home situations, it’s not usually the case. The pool of kids his age my son would like to hang out with is pretty small. He’s got a couple friends from our crazy non-school school.

          But: on his own last year, he joined a football team – didn’t get to play (not very athletic, 1st yr, etc.), but he liked the kids, who liked him. This year, again on his own, he joined the Boy Scout troop at a local Catholic parish. He again likes the other kids, plus he’s dying to go camping and get out in nature.

          Point is, kids will even figure this kind of stuff out on their own, if mom & dad are encouraging and trust them and support their decisions.

        6. For parents who simply can’t be at home to school kids who need home-school, it is possible to hire personal tutors (my SiL has done it for several years for her 2 kids). It’s the equivalent of the nanny/governess mode of the past, but can get good results if you are careful to specify exactly what you want the tutor to accomplish, and have a way of monitoring them. My niece & nephew were already in middle school age when they started, so it might be harder to find someone suitable for a 4-going-on-fourteen year old.
          There are plenty of non-school ways to get socialization, but you have to be willing to look for them.

    2. I had an aunt who suffered a stroke and then had a son around that time. So both were schooled when she relearned things. My other cousins and my uncle (an engineer) taught the two of them how to read, write, math, etc. Not long after he was in kindergarten, he was sent home with a note, saying he was not doing his work. When my uncle asked him why, he replied “I’m tired of just sitting and coloring all the time.” Luckily the teacher was able to give him other things to do in those “work” periods.

      Sadly, he drown at 8, so all that potential was lost.

      1. Yeah, a couple of the schools I went to tried that. Finish your work early, and you got rewarded with… more work! Which was simply thrown away, since it didn’t count toward a grade.

        For some reason sitting there quietly reading Heinlein or Norton put their panties in a wad. Not Approved Activity, or something.

        1. Ah, for him it was “read this” for the most part, using the reading textbooks for the higher grades, and they used the stories the teachers were not going to cover during the school year, so he wouldn’t have to re-read them later for tests. He had to tell them what it was about to show he read while the rest just colored.

          1. I remember when UKLG was consider to be too sexual (at least in my school) for teenagers to read. LOL. Nowadays they’d complain she was too appropriative. Never got a chance to meet her. Too late now.

    3. That’s a pet peeve of mine. Especially since I was reading at a college freshman level…in 1st grade. Government schools were a 12-year prison sentence.

      1. I was always in trouble for not being in the right place in the book when it came my turn to read aloud, because I had already finished it.
        Teacher finally figured it out and gave me time to get back to the spot and read, because I could be depended on to pronounce the words correctly.

        1. Mom was told by the school I couldn’t read because I can’t pronounce most new words without hearing them. I can intuit the meaning of new obscure words; pronounce them, not likely. Still can’t, & I’m north of 60. Used to bother me when I was corrected, now, whatever.

  7. Looking forward to meet you at LTUE! I had mixed performance in public schools It was college and university where I really fell down. I finally decided to skip the credentialization process and focus on acquiring skills and knowledge as I need it and at my own pace.

      1. Anyone who had been paying attention to the FBI’s view on private citizen’s having access to strong encryption already added this years ago, at least on some subjects.

  8. I had the experience of a British education when we were still allowed to learn what we could do. Some of my teachers were brilliant, others so-so, and the French one an active hazard for me because he wanted me to learn Parisian French and forget the language I spoke with the Breton/Norman side of my family. But my overwhelming memories are two: first the splendid headmaster whose motto was ‘stick to your guns if you’re sure you’re right’ – and he used to ask us all kinds of questions and expect answers to them. And second, the sheer boredom of being held in a class of mixed abilities that meant I was at least one year ahead (if not two) of the class in some subjects that clicked with me but struggling to understand others without enough explanations aimed at my particular level..

    1. When I was in my 30s or so, my mother dug out my old report cards from elementary through high school. Consistencies: I did lousy at PE, and my handwriting was and is a mess. (At least now, I can blame it on arthritis.)

      Seeing these comments, I realized that the one-teacher-for-all elementary system really held me back. It was a good school system, with fairly high income levels with many of the kids expected to go into professional or managerial slots when they grew up. Dad picked the town for the schools and the commute. Could have done worse, but a) I was a klutzy Odd, ‘nuf said, and b) when I got bored, it was hell waiting on the other kids to catch up. Item ‘b’ cost me some grade points…

      Come Junior High and HS, things worked out better. They had a tracking system with a few levels, and I got the next-to-top track, mostly for science and math. Working with folks at my level really helped. I did confuse and perhaps infuriate the adviser when I insisted on taking drafting, metal shop, and Data Processing (this was 1969). Not sure the adviser actually had to deal with a wannabe engineer. I skipped AP chemistry for the Data Processing, and I wasn’t offered Calculus.

      Calculus and Differential Equations, or my difficulties in figuring them out, nearly sunk my engineering work, but I discovered that I understood the material about 6 months after it was presented. It didn’t hurt that the 6 months coincided with using these equations and techniques I couldn’t grok in the abstract… Senior year, I took a math class just to convince myself I could pick it up in time. The instructor was willing to use concrete examples, and I did fine.

      I did a MS program 13 years after graduation, and working my tail off did wonders; it was a 7-9AM program, and I was sleep deprived for 4 years, but I did OK.

  9. I’ve seen the work behind the gifted programs and the actual day-to-day work of the special-needs classrooms. It is very clear that the goal of modern education is to get everyone into a small band of acceptable thought and action. If you can’t measure up, we’ll help you get specialized attention with an IEP (individualized education plan) so you can get closer to your peers. If you are far and away exceeding the abilities of others, well, too bad. You know too much already, so just don’t make waves. Go in this classroom and be quiet.

    And yes, more field trips are a must. Get the kids out of the classrooms!

    1. “Dollar Billy” Clinton, “The Education President”, made his education PAC bones as governor, when he shut down the gifted children program, which the teachers hated.

      1. I have absolutely no basis for this opinion, but I think most of the reason why teachers hate gifted programs is because they know the students are more capable than the teachers are.

        1. And there’s no $$ in them. Plus you don’t get pay bonuses for teaching gifted/talented like some districts pay for Special Ed and ESL.

          1. Locally we had a state-mandated Gifted/Talented program for kids who scored n the top one-half of one-percent in the county. Teachers in the program did get extra pay for certifications in gifted education. Opposition came from a) Parents (including one school board member) whose kids missed the cut and had to rely on Gifted/Talented supplements in regular programs b) Idiots People who claimed that those kids would be all right without help and the focus should be on those who truly needed assistance c) Other I forget about at the moment.

            One thing we noticed when Daughtorial Unit was in the program was a disproportionate number of her classmates had behavioural issues in addition to their gifted/talented aspects. We found informal evidence that principals with G/T students who lacked the behavioural problems were more likely to assure parents that their kids giftedness could be “fully supported” with the available supplemental resources available in their school. That these kids were useful as teachers’ assistants and helped skew school test scores upward generally wasn’t discussed.

            OTOH, gifted kids with behavioural issues often got the “Little [NAME] is wonderfully bright and we wondered whether you are aware of this program offered by one of our system’s charter-type schools?” discussion.

  10. Sr. Scholastica (aka The Dean) and I were reminiscing about how when we went to school—not long after the discovery of fire—kids got pulled out of class for a lot of things, including basic phys ed skills like throwing a ball. And older students were encouraged to tutor the younger ones. Which led to both of us sighing over the problems of kids in public schools who don’t get the opportunity to learn coping skills.

    And then Fr. Romanus popped in seeking sponsors for the state Latin convention trip and we both hid behind large pieces of furniture.

    1. When I read “Ender’s Game”, the school there sounded way better than the prisons-for-children I had to attend.

    2. Oh. You are older than dirt, too? — Our standard response to “How OLD are you?”

      Not by choice, but we were older than most the parents in son’s class, or as old as the ones, who were going through the process again with their youngest. Not the oldest parents, some were custodians of their grandchildren. But you get the picture.

            1. All three of my younger sisters, and their kids, went to the same private school I did. Yes, most of the teachers were “broken in” by me. 😎

  11. “And yeah, I know, people will say other countries don’t have school shootings.”

    Pretty sure we’ve had at least two in Canada.

        1. Valery Fabrikant was Belgian, Marc Lépine was an atheist who was baptized Catholic, and Kimveer Gill was from the Punjab, so I assume Sikh.

          Not sure where you’re getting Islamic from that.

          1. Marc Lepine is his “Quebecois” name. His father was an immigrant from Algeria I believe and a misogynist of the worst sort. He may have been baptized Catholic, may have been an atheist, but all that misogyny had to come from somewhere.There have been a few looks into his background by bloggers. A lot of the information was glossed over by the media at the time because..bias…

          2. Gamil Gharbi. Not surprised you didn’t know that was Marc Lepine’s real name, the media goes to great lengths to pretend otherwise. But yes, Marc Lepine was an Islamist before it was cool. Just one more thing that the Liberal Party of Canada doesn’t want you to know.

            By the way, for anyone still nursing the hope that Canada’s media is better than those wretched Americans, google Patrick Brown #MeToo today. Ooops, CTV gettin’ sued, baby!

            The Canadian media mutts are different than the biased, corrupt, rotting USA media. They’re worse. So, so much worse.

            1. I’m aware of that – I know his father was Algerian and such, but there were none of the usual tells of an Islamic attack, as far as I am aware (manifesto, “allahu ackbar”, etc). It is entirely possible for someone to be utterly screwed up without it having a religious basis. And the other two have no Islamic connection, AFAIK

              1. If you’re shooting up a school full of children you’re a psycho nut job who needs part of his skull removed with an expanding bullet.

                The only difference between Islamic Nut Jobs and Non-islamic nut jobs is that Islam gives their insanity focus and justification, and because of the focus and justification, support. Some of that support comes from a community of believers who at *best* cannot criticize because it’s what their religion, and thereby their culture teaches them, and at worst it’s what they believe, but their sort of “natural morality” won’t let them do it.

                Because of that, and because of the nature of current conflicts there has arisen a network that encourages and supports these f*kers.

                The non-islamic nut job has to do it all on his own.

                1. And on that note, it’s too bad Florida got rid of hanging for the death penalty. That’s how they need to exterminate Nicky Cruz.

                    1. I confess I don’t care what happens to him — permanent imprisonment, execution, placing him anonymously in a naval brig* with orders that his name never be heard again by him.

                      *e.g., Edward Everett Hale’s The Man Without a Country story.

                    2. I forget who wrote that it’s not punishment unless it’s cruel and unusual. Probably RAH.

                      I think it’s a fallacy to view the death penalty as punishment. Punishment is a means of discipline, of applying a strong proportional negative consequence to bad behavior with the intent of getting the recipient to learn to not perform that behavior. Sure, if the person is dead, they’re not going to repeat the behavior. However, they don’t learn anything from it. Yes, punishment, including the death penalty, can and often is used as a form of revenge, of retribution. But realistically, the death penalty should be used for extermination of people too dangerous to be allowed the possibility of ever escaping to commit more atrocities. The trick is to identify those who are guilty, without condemning the innocent, and being able to prove that they are not realistically rehabilitatable.

                      Death should be quick. If it’s not, it’s torture. Impalement, drawing and quartering, and crucifixion are tortures. Hanging? Done properly, it’s quick.

                      As for the 8th amendment, Titus Oates should have been executed; but the case got played like the O.J. Simpson case and all they could do was get him imprisoned and tortured. The man was a monster and deserved death; but that was the best they could do under the circumstances.

                    3. Who says punishment can only be for the education of the person getting it?

                      If that were the case, then we’d have to not put in jail those folks who view it as a paid vacation and chance to network.

                      There’s a reason that it is called paying the price, not “rehabilitation after preemptive forgiveness sans repentance.”

                      The lesson “if you do this, then there is a chance you will (have unpleasant thing happen to you)” is a punishment when it’s inflicted by other than natural sources. Without the other than natural sources adjustment, it’s a consequence.

                    4. Honestly, the chances of prisoners escaping a properly-designed prison are close to zero. The Unabomber has been mouldering away in Supermax for some time; the only reason Ted Bundy escaped was that he was minimally supervised because he was personable enough to fool his guards.

            2. But maybe the lawsuit will have a shot. Here you can file falsities as long as there is an anonymous source.

  12. “I think it took me years after high school to stop having vivid dreams where I was trapped in school and trying to get out.”

    Went through a phase like that a few years back. I was wandering the halls of my high school, but it wasn’t my high school. And then I’d find out that I hadn’t done an important project and the year was ending. They’ve stopped now.

    1. HS. College. Work. Sometimes all 3 at once. They’ve pretty much stopped now that all the stress is gone. The few I do have, I wake up, get up, look in the mirror … “I’m retired, darn it!” … okay language may be a bit more colorful …

      1. I had a period of recurring nightmares that I was back in college and it was about halfway through the semester that I had this horrible realization I had completely forgotten about one of my classes. Hadn’t attended a single class session, done any of the readings, nothing at all, because it had somehow completely slipped my mind until now, and there was no way I’d ever be able to catch back up.

        These nightmares alternated with ones of small creatures in cages under my bed that I was supposed to be responsible for and had horribly neglected. Those were even worse because waking up didn’t provide immediate “only a dream” relief, until I groped around underneath enough to know that no, there were no such cages of hamsters/mice/kittens/whatever.

        1. I used to have the same recurring college dream, and I have heard the same from others. It would be an interesting research project to find out just how widespread the phenomenon is, and what the dreamers have in common; also, if people who have not been to college have analogous dreams. There may be some fundamental subconscious process at work.

          1. I remember hearing that people who have graduated college often experience the ‘scheduled final for class they didn’t attend all semester long’ nightmare — occurring years after they have graduated. (My mother said that she did, I think Dad did, also.) I don’t – instead, I have the reoccurring nightmare of coming to work at the radio or TV station which doesn’t work, and it’s five minutes to the start of live on-air, or the programming day, and the log can’t be found, the equipment is all jacked up, I can’t find what I need in the audio or video library (sometimes I can’t even find the library!) and the clock is ticking down … I have that nightmare about once a month, usually when I am stressing about something. I only spend four years in college, but about thirty-five in broadcasting, off and on.

            1. Yeah, I’ve had those dreams too. Actually had that sort of thing happen once—came in to find the programmable boards unable to connect to anything but the network feed, and a team of engineers working frantically in order to get the phone lines and microphones connecting before the live shows were to start. We almost did the first live show of the day from the board op booth, since that was the microphone they got working first, but they connected the main studio with ten minutes to spare.

            2. Mine are all variations on responsibilities I didn’t know I had until it was too late– I have an extra sibling, I’m suddenly in charge of a school/city/superhero team (yes, I have DEPRESSING super power dreams), it’s my job to make sure nobody in my family suffers (oh gads no)….

    2. I’d occasionally have a dream where I’d find myself sitting in a high school homeroom with a class schedule in my hand, filled with dread that I’d have to take all these classes. (Particularly gym class.)

      Then at some point in the dream my rational mind would come online and say “I graduated over 20 years ago. I don’t have to do any of this garbage ever again!”

      And that’s the moment where those dreams turn *awesome*. Almost better than dreaming you can fly or beat up ninjas.

    3. Not quite vivid.. (no turn to control.. or I just wake up, it seems) but used to have those. They’ve mostly faded, I think. That one other odd anxiety dream, naked in public (always at school, and when conscious always strange as nobody else in the dream seemed to care or even notice) was defeated and I know how and when. After a regimen of dietary changes & exercise (that collapsed with the economy, damnit) I was well down in weight, feeling great, and to my utter shock had a request to pose nude as model for some aspiring artists. I accepted and did it. And having lived through the actual “nude in public” (at least sort of)… the anxiety dreams of such stopped right then and there. Not another since. That bomb has been truly defused, it would seem.

      1. Combat with no rifle no body armor. Expected to lead infantry. (I was a support MOS and had no illusions about my lack of qualifications for leading infantry.) I think I’d rather have the nude dream.

        1. Aye. Potential embarrassment is far better than potential death.

          (Reminds me a bit of the seatbelt/helmet/safety-device arguments… “I’ll look silly!” “Silly beats dead. Now use it.”)

  13. When I was about twelve years old, one day my grandfather bursts into my classroom with my sister under one arm, scooped me up all the while he was shouting about how public schools were ‘turning his wee bairns into simpletons’.

    My granda could be impulsive and hadn’t thought through what he was going to do with us while my single mom was at work all day. Both of us were back in school the next day but my grandparents started to supplement our education after school.

    My paternal grandparents hated Prussian school system that was created by the grandparents and great grandparents of Nazis because it makes people obedient dullards. Too much book learning, not enough activity outdoors where you really learn things.

    1. When the schools defined “learning” as “repeating back what you were told”, they missed the whole point of education. Of course, it might have been their intent.

      “I know people who read interminably, book after book, from page to page, and yet I would not call them ‘well-read people’. Of course they ‘know’ an immense amount; but their brain seems incapable of assorting and classifying the material they have gathered from books. They have not the faculty of distinguishing between what is useful and useless in a book; so that they may retain the former in their minds and if possible skip over the latter while reading it, if that be not possible, then – when once read – throw it overboard as useless ballast. Reading is not an end in itself, but a means to an end. Its chief purpose is to help towards filling in the framework which is made up of the talents and capabilities that each individual possesses. Thus each one procures for himself the implements and materials necessary for the fulfillment of his calling in life, no matter whether this might be the elementary task of earning one’s daily bread or a calling that responds to higher human aspirations. Such is the first purpose of reading. And the second purpose is to give a general knowledge of the world in which we live. In both cases, however, the material which one has acquired through reading must not be stored in the memory on a plan that corresponds to the successive chapters of the book; but each little piece of knowledge thus gained must be treated as if it were a little stone to be inserted into a mosaic, so that it finds its proper place among all the other pieces and particles that help to form a general world-picture in the brain of the reader. Otherwise only a confused jumble of chaotic notions will result from all this reading. That jumble is not merely useless, but it also tends to make the unfortunate possessor of it conceited. For he seriously considers himself a well-educated person and thinks that he understands the meaning of life. He believes that he has acquired knowledge, whereas that every increase in such ‘knowledge’ draws him more and more away from real life, until he finally ends up in some sanitarium or takes to politics and becomes a parliamentary deputy.”

      – Adolf Hitler, “Mein Kampf”, British (James Murphy) translation of 1939.

      1. OK. Wow. He’s so mostly right. (I love the bit about the people who can’t think critically going into politics or a sanitarium.)

        But this is both right and so very wrong:
        Reading is not an end in itself, but a means to an end.

        If you never do reading as an end in itself, then you will turn into a humorless scold.

        And, because he was right in that excerpt, I have to turn it back on him and declare he was one of those who put his mosaic together very badly.

        1. When I first saw it I was reminded of the old Soviet saying, “Only knowledge that serves the State is of value.”

      2. Hitler was one of those annoying people who was right about a few things, and still managed to utterly miss what’s important in life.

        What I find endlessly hilarious is the determination with which the Left continues Hitler’s lifelong work, while demonizing his name. There’s not a single thing in the Liberal/Lefty policy book that old Adolph wouldn’t approve of.

        1. I have a few left wing friends who were/are big fans of Bernie Sanders and I asked them how could they support a national socialist.

          Of course, they had no idea that Nazis were national socialists and I didn’t tell them because we were at dinner party and I didn’t think it appropriate to call my host a Nazi.

      3. Peculiar feeling to find yourself agreeing with Adolph.

        I wonder if he was talking about himself when he wrote that last sentence about how politicians can’t think critically or operate in real world. If someone other than Hitler had written this passage, I would use it to illustrate to others why I hate public schools.

        1. The thing about old Adolph is that some of the time he’s right, and some of the time he’s -lying-. He doesn’t believe a lot of the stuff in his book, he’s saying it for the rubes. Same as Lenin, in his book. Or Obama, in the book that was ghost written for him.

          It would be interesting to run those three books through a semantic analysis and see how many ideas and policies they share. Most of them, would be my off hand guess.

      4. When the schools defined “learning” as “repeating back what you were told”, they missed the whole point of education. Of course, it might have been their intent.

        Given that, to my understanding, the whole POINT of the original Prussian system was to educate the masses sufficiently to be soldiers and (more impotantly) artillerymen back before ballistic computers, and that this sort of thing turned out to be JUST THE THING for the early industrial revolution, “repeating back what you were just told” pretty much WAS the intent.

        Those sorts of people headed for better things (which meant they wouldn’t have been found in a public school. Or not for long) had a completely different sort of education. Or not.

        See, at certain levels of development it’s *exactly* what you need to do.

        The Japanese–at least in their martial arts–have a concept of Shu Ha Ri:
        shu (守) "protect", "obey"—traditional wisdom—learning fundamentals, techniques, heuristics, proverbs
        ha (破) "detach", "digress"—breaking with tradition—detachment from the illusions of self
        ri (離) "leave", "separate"—transcendence—there are no techniques or proverbs, all moves are natural, becoming one with spirit alone without clinging to forms; transcending the physical From wikipedia.

        In the beginning you memorize. You don’t know enough to “think” yet (my daughter, and I assume most brightish kids do this. They start to wander down Idea Lane, but because their life experience fits in a thimble along with room for raisins, they branch off into the Crazy Alley).

        At some point you have enough to understand what you are doing, so you start to do things a little different.

        This would, in a reasonable world, line up roughly with grade School, high school, and college.

        1. At some point you have enough to understand what you are doing, so you start to do things a little different.

          Yep. Younger children are unprepared for complex reasoning (unless on the far end of the bell curve), so they need information presented to them that will help them have a basis for the things that come later, and they need to be able to show that they have stored this information correctly.

          The problem is twofold: First, they are neither being presented with the right kind of information as grounding for further education, nor enough information to build upon later. Second, they are not being taught how to use the earlier information as a foundation for critical thinking, and how to build upon the base they have received in order to go further.

          The structure of the system (as it was designed) is less the problem than is the misuse of it in the modern world.

      5. And sometimes you do have to repeat back what you’re told to learn.

        My mother observed that many of her chemistry students would gawk and ask how they could that when she assigned them ions to memorize. But there’s no way around it. If you don’t have that kind of knowledge down pat, you can’t build on it.

    2. When I was about twelve years old, one day my grandfather bursts into my classroom with my sister under one arm, scooped me up all the while he was shouting about how public schools were ‘turning his wee bairns into simpletons’.

      …Your granda was awesome. And that is an adorable mental image in my head.

  14. One of our ‘Thank god we moved to Texas’ reasons: when we ask the kids in town what their favorite subject is, they invariably answer, “Math.”

  15. Apropos:

    At some point, parents need to re-examine the wisdom of trusting their children to a government institution with a 100% failure rate of preventing fatalities in armed attacks, which is run by unionized public employees, and which punishes excellence more harshly than criminal activity.

    Think of it, ladies and gentlemen. The schools consider a lock-down with all the children trapped in their classrooms to be “secure.” How many events have we seen where that is nothing more than concentrating the targets for the shooter? Pretty much every single one so far. Do we see any movement afoot to change that? We do not.

    Home schooling. If you do -nothing- and your kid reaches college unable to read or write, the child will be no worse off than 30% of New York State high school graduates.

    1. Guess that makes me a horrible outlier for the New York State education system. But then I did graduate in 1977.

      1. You got out before the rot really set in. I tutored first year college kids in upstate SUNY schools and taught classes for the MCAT exam, I saw plenty that were functionally illiterate. They could read a menu or an instruction book, but not a textbook or a novel. They could write a note or something, but couldn’t do their own resume, write a business letter, essay etc. They weren’t stupid, or badly behaved, or lazy. Just un-taught.

        Those were ones that got into college, don’t forget.

        I expect Ontario is no different now. Its not really a regional or national thing, its an international cultural failure.

    2. Interestingly, part of the advice for the school my dad teaches at was ‘if you have your backpack on… turn your back and run. Your books’ll stop at least a couple of most rounds.’ (They have college sized books at that school) He didn’t relay all the rest of it but it was a lot of actual situational stuff: If X then Y. (Knowing my dad if they couldn’t get out there would be upturning of heavy desks and issuing of other objects to use as bludgeons.)

      1. Fire extinguishers. Aim them at the shooter’s face, and then while they’re blinded, slam the extinguisher down on their hands or upside the head.

        I wouldn’t want to kill someone (only if truly necessary), but breaking their hands would be pretty effective as a stop.

        1. There are dozens of things you can use in defense. We call a similar idea “oxygen therapy”. A D tank into the head or chest will do wonders for slowing someone down.

        2. Head is probably a better target, because it’s big enough you won’t be subconsciously trying to aim which can slow your slam.

          You’re likely to hit the hands/arms that way, anyways, just with more oomph.

  16. Don’t know about how well sourced this is, but along with reporting that the shooter “trained as a member of a white nationalist militia, according to … Republic of Florida leader Jordan Jereb.” Jereb apparently told this to the Anti Defamation League, which I find dubious — as they don’t sound the sort of group to blab to the likes of the ADL.

    “[Jereb] claims he didn’t know Cruz personally and the massacre — in which most of the victims were white — was not done at the behest of the ROF. Two former classmates said he was fiercely right-wing and would discuss politics at school — and that he wore a “Make America Great Again” hat around campus, according to the Daily Beast.”


    The initiating event may be this:

    Mom’s flu death may have sent Florida massacre suspect over the edge
    The deranged 19-year-old accused of the worst school shooting since the Sandy Hook massacre may have been sent over the edge when his single mom died of complications from the flu in November, family said.

    Suspect Nikolas Cruz, 19, is accused of killing 17 and injuring more than 15 when he opened fire inside South Florida’s Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School on Wednesday.

    He and younger brother Zachary were adopted as infants by Roger and Lynda Cruz, but Roger died from a heart attack a decade ago, leaving Lynda to raise the boys herself, according to family.

    Lynda, 68, checked into a clinic with the flu and was rushed to a hospital, where she died Nov. 1 of pneumonia, cousin Kathie Blaine told ABC News.

    She was otherwise healthy before checking into the hospital, the cousin told the network.

    “Lynda was very close to them,” sister-in-law Barbara Kumbatovic told the Washington Post. “She put a lot of time and effort into those boys, trying to give them a good life and upbringing.

    “I don’t think it [the massacre] had anything to do with his upbringing. It could have been the loss of his mom.”


    An anonymous family member told the Sun-Sentinel that Nikolas had been diagnosed with autism.

    “I know he did have some issues and he may have been taking medication. [He] did have some kind of emotional problems or difficulties,” Kumbatovic also told the paper.

    After the unexpected death, the brothers briefly moved in with friends in Palm Beach County, but Nikolas left shortly afterward when a friend’s family said he could stay with them in northwest Broward County, the Sun-Sentinel reported.


    Nikolas already owned the AR-15 assault rifle he allegedly used in the massacre when he moved in with the family, and they made him keep the weapon in a gun safe, CNN reported.

    The family handed over the safe keys to investigators, the outlet reported.

      1. PJM is on it. Nobody ever got fact-checked feeding the media the myths they want to hear:

        Media Swallows Militia Leader’s Claim School Shooter Was Connected to White Supremacists
        A self-aggrandizing leader of a white supremacist militia has put one over on the American media. Jordan Jereb apparently capitalized on the media frenzy over school shooter Nikolas Cruz and tried to gain some free publicity for his militia, the Republic of Florida.


        The Tallahassee Democrat reported that Leon County law enforcement sources told them “they could not find information linking Cruz, 19, to the Republic of Florida Militia, as first reported by the group’s self-proclaimed leader Jordan Jereb.” The report went on to say that Leon County Sheriff’s Office Lt. Grady Jordan said investigative work Thursday did not yield any connections.”


        Only media hysteria over Trump would explain belief in a lying hater like Jereb. That Daily Beast article contained zero caveats and posted his idiotic ramblings without comment.

        As I said, Cruz could be a member of the ROF or not. Local law enforcement, whom you would think are keeping pretty close tabs on a bunch of radical righties with guns, never heard of Cruz being connected to the militia.

        But that pales in comparison to the “fact” that the leader of a white supremacist militia is virtually claiming responsibility for the school shooting. And despite zero evidence and no confirmation from any independent source — indeed, a denial from local authorities — the media runs with it.


      2. There’s a screenshot of a later statement by the leader of the Republic of Florida, which is 400 miles away from the school. In summary, IIRC: a) apologizes for mistakenly claiming Nick was a member b) RoF has a lot of people named Nicholas c) He hadn’t sleep for two days when he made the original statement d) a comment about lying media. This was allegedly on facebook, on an account that has since been taken down.

    1. “White Nationalist Militia”… feeding ADL info?
      Even ox not that slow.
      (And ox feeling downright lethargic just now.)
      Or things have gone well into surreal

  17. I’ve become convinced that the entire education system has been deliberately designed to be as boring as possible and to make students absolutely loathe learning.

    I was lucky in that I mostly had phenomenal English teachers (had a few stinkers too), but the curriculum still sucked. 9th Grade was World Literature, and even though I had the best English teacher in the school (probably the best in the district, possibly the country), I HATED that year. Why? Because we had to read the most depressing books that the district could find. Nectar in a Sieve. Midaq Alley. Things Fall Apart. Harp of Burma. I confess to not actually finishing Harp of Burma because I was sick and tired of being super-depressed. Skinny little depressing books, each one beat to death over the course of an entire marking period.

    Little Brother is the science nerd of the family (going for his PhD in Physics! At Harvard! Smart Cookie) and he HATES the fact that science and math are taught in what have the be the most BORING ways possible. Most kids are not going to find abstract formulas and problems applied in a vacuum (i.e. no context) interesting.

    Little Brother and I both agree that, for all his faults (and I personally believe that he has MANY), Bill Nye was probably the best thing that happened science-wise to our generation because he made science fun and interesting.

    1. Boring classes are a symptom of burned-out teachers. It happens quite a lot. Burned-out teachers are bored themselves, and, in turn, bore the students. It’s the teachers who view what they’re teaching as “Isn’t that neat?” that have a love of what they are teaching, and that, in turn, is quite infectious.

      1. I agree to a point. Lord knows I had burned-out teachers and teachers who just didn’t give a crap. But that’s not the only problem. In my district, course curricula were drawn up by the district itself, not individual teachers. Reason being was that we had multiple elementary and middle schools, and multple teams of teachers in each grade at each school, and the district decreed that each student had to receive the exact same learning experience (because having some teams and schools be better than others wasn’t fair). And may God have mercy on your soul if you deviated from or expanded upon your assigned curriculum.

        To my knowledge, there was ONE teacher in the entire district (Mrs. Cannon, 7th grade math) who dared deviate from the assigned curriculum. She worked her students to the bone (and most of them hated her for it), but not one of them made it out of her classroom without mastering the material) She only got away with it because a) she was such a force of nature that the district administration was TERRIFIED of her, and b) her students ALWAYS got top scores in the state assessment tests.

      2. Federal/State/School System mandated curricula and scope and sequence diktats (can you say “Common Core”? I knew that you could!) are a major driver of that burnout, ensuring that the best teachers, those with a jones to educate, will get frustrated and split. The current system is top-down driven by people distant from classrooms who view a teacher’s job as “presenting the required material in a manner prescribed for optimum outcomes.”

        Leave us eschew discussion of how modern pedagogy has been developed according to the enlightened guidance of Bill Ayers and those who think like him.

        1. It’s been lost in the Democrat attempts to overturn the election, but Common Core is now dead. My problem with Common Core is that it weakened school curriculum. Consider this: Georgia is nowhere near the top when it comes to standardized test results, and Common Core had a less stringent curriculum than Georgia’s. Someone running for state school superintendent pointed this out, and had the hard data to prove it. It was originally on her campaign website, was moved elsewhere, and don’t know if it’s still out there or not. Anyone interested might find it with Wayback.

          I am both elated and crestfallen at the demise of Common Core. Elated, because I think it will benefit students. Crestfallen because I was working on an indie math textbook, and now there won’t be a market for it.

          1. A smaller market, maybe not sufficient to cover your investment, but the market will still exist.

      3. I was fortunate in having teachers absolutely fascinated with biology, chemistry, and physics in high school. Which played right into the hands of this science fiction nut.

        1. Yeah, I got really lucky in high school. Even Mrs. Shaw, my senior year English teacher was quite good at English Lit. Year 1 got medium heavy into mythology, 2 was first round of English Lit, 3 was American, and 4 was Mrs Shaw. We did a few of Shakespeare’s plays. Not sure I can do MacBeth’s dagger speech anymore, but I had it cold.

          The science and math teachers were really good.

    2. I believe that also – that it’s a deliberate conspiracy to make what could be interesting, fascinating, engaging for kids … be deathly dull, and therefore atrophy their capacity for learning; just churn out an endless supply of credulous, obedient simpletons.

    3. “Skinny little depressing books, each one beat to death over the course of an entire marking period.”

      Hey, better skinny little depressing books than big, fat depressing books. (I actually considered “Things Fall Apart” a refreshing break in my curriculum given the horrors that came before.)

      “Bill Nye was probably the best thing that happened science-wise to our generation”

      I can accept that maybe he WAS as long as the emphasis is on the past tense. Some things I’ve heard about his attempted revival don’t bear thinking about.

      1. Little Brother still thinks Nye is awesome. I think he was awesome until he joined the Sanctified Church of Global Warming and became a full-tilt SJW. And we will never speak of “My Sex Junk.” Ever. Ever. Ever. Agreed?

        1. We had Mister Wizard in my youth. He got a few things well, but lost me as a kid when he was trying to do “The ears are better than the eyes”, by some wacky demonstration. IIRC, it was two blocks of paraffin wax, with an opaque card in the middle. Lights were on either side, and you were supposed to “find the center” by comparing illumination. He then dimmed one light and Ah Ha! the comparison didn’t work out to the center.

          He claimed you couldn’t be fooled with hearing; I’m guessing he hadn’t had any exposure to the (then new) stereo equipment. We didn’t have much money, but I’d run into a balance control somewhere…

          1. I remember Professor Proton Don Herbert quite fondly. In the example you cite I suspect he was addressing direct perception rather than seeing/hearing recorded experience.

            Rough to do on television.

      2. “Hey, better skinny little depressing books than big, fat depressing books.”
        My kids all complained about that – “why is literature always so depressing?” – and read as little as they could get by with (and this from kids reading LotR in grade school, and the unabridged Hunchback and Monte Cristo in middle school).
        I agreed with them, of course.
        Adulthood is the time to read heavy and meaningful adult books; school should the time to read things they enjoy reading.
        Too bad nobody ever asked me.

        1. My kids all complained about that – “why is literature always so depressing?”

          Because the people picking it are stuck in that annoying point of maturity where “emo” is “mature,” but before the idea that grown ups deal with it and move on has hit.

    4. There is an anime adaptation of Harp of Burma. A live action one, too!

      I skipped Tale of Two Cities. We had Dickens three years in a row in junior high, and Great Expectations broke me. I know Chesterton loved him, and I used to. But I have not been able to do Dickens since junior high, except for some mystery short stories.

  18. I mean, has anyone, anyone who is even mildly odd, be it in intelligence (high or low) or just personality never wanted to destroy his school, classmates included or not?

    *raises hand*

    Not me, but that’s a deeply ingrained “never destroy things unless it’s required” mindset.

    Thanks be to God, I never thought someone needed to die, or even be injured– I acted in ways that could have caused injury a couple of times in defense of my rights. (And always keeping in mind that the proportion had dang well better be so far against my favor that even the most hostile of witnesses couldn’t deny I didn’t go overboard.)

    Was also voted most likely to do a school shooting…yes, literally. No, nobody ever got in trouble for it. No, the morons didn’t act like they thought I might actually be a danger. /sigh

    1. I don’t recall ever wanting to destroy the school, but I did have occasional fantasies of putting a severe hurting on a few people.

      That went away about the middle of Senior year, when I had the epiphany that they were just too immature to understand what they were doing.

    2. I dreamed of having the black lion from Voltron™ swoop down and chase away all the kids. We’d level the building, then go off to the stars to have adventures.

    3. I was accused of it, but recognized a critical thing: I didn’t mind school so much as the people and some (not all) of the methods – and also that it would accomplish nothing truly beneficial for anyone. And the High School(s) had pretty good libraries – into which I could retreat and actually learn stuff.

    4. I never wanted to destroy my school, though I do remember a few times I wished certain classmates weren’t in my class. Music History, oh yes. “Can you explain [basic term we had already covered dozens of times]?”

    5. I’ve thought about a political campaign to eliminate the budget for public education. Was a very bad time in my life, and I’m no longer as convinced as I was.

      And my highschool class voted me ‘most likely to get indicted for crimes against humanity’. I’d vocally expressed some very critical opinions of the ICC and human rights tribunals. I’d also campaigned for it, on the grounds that given the class size, it was statistically a correct statement.

  19. Now as far as stopping shootings goes, my solution is simple:


    Unless there is armed security on campus, or a police officer just happens to be there when the shooting starts, schools are free-fire zones. Slaughterhouses. History proves that the shooter is going to keep shooting until he runs out of ammo, encounters serious resistance, and/or decides to off himself. And they usually off themselves the moment they encounter serious, prolonged resistance.

    So either allow teacher to arm (and train) themselves and/or put armed (and trained) security in the schools. Give teachers and administrators a chance to do something other than heroically use themselves as meat shields to defend their students.

    Hell, my former Social Studies teacher who leans so far left that even Marx and Lenin would think she was nuts has started advocating for armed teachers and admins. This from the woman who would have happily gone door to door herself to forcibly confiscate guns. So we have to be onto something.

    But that will never happen, because the media and far too many regular people just know that guns are demonic death machines that posses anyone who touches them or even comes near them with an insatiable bloodlust and an urge to slaughter nuns, widows, orphans, lgbtqs, minorities, etc., and that anyone “protecting” the students will just add to the body count.

    Okay, sorry, rant over. We now return you to your regularly scheduled comment thread.

      1. Piers Moron… (that CNN guy whose name I forgot and I don’t want to look it up because the usual ghoulish exploitation of this atrocity is leading me not to care) was claiming that there was one (count ’em ONE) armed guard at the school so “obviously” that means advocating armed guards is useless and we “must” ban guns and so on. For the CHIIIIIIIIILLLLLLDREN.

        Apparently “defense in depth” never occurred to him so… oh wait, that’s right: Moron.

      2. That is supposedly a huge campus with multiple buildings. One armed guard could not possibly cover the whole territory. I hate to play what ifs, but cannot help but speculate how differently things might have turned out if the coach who died attempting to save students had been armed.

        1. I’d count it as nine rather big buildings, and then what looks like over two dozen prefab room type places out back.

          Husband says “they had a cop assigned to the area. He did stuff like drove around both of the schools and was on call for trouble.” Probably had an office in at least one of them, too.

          Middle school has what looks like four really big buildings and 16 prefabs out back, they’re a bit over a football field with track apart. (game fields between them)

          Very sensible setup, honestly.

        2. Yeah, I remember US campuses being rather large. Heck, even here, elementary schools have a fairly big area. Even if a single cop were there, present, I … don’t think one is enough.

          I kind of remember the private schools I went to; there were security guards, with a baton at least, maybe a revolver. My friends and I used to consider these security measures largely inadequate; and I should note that for a good few years when kidnap-for-ransom was very popular, I was thought of as quite crazy for not bothering to have my mother pick me up from college – I would *gasp* commute my poor ass back home wearing my uniform. I gently pointed out that if I was commuting, potential kidnappers would observe I was too poor to afford a chauffeured car, thus not worth kidnapping. Their fears were not unwarranted though; the school I went to and the campus next to it (Ateneo de Manila) were rich-kid schools and there had been several Miriam College student kidnappings.

          1. I gather the Israeli model is two parts:

            Schools are sealed during class

            Two teachers (unidentified and may vary day-to-day) armed

      3. Usually the cop assigned to the school has a bunch of other duties– and if there’s anything where someone needs backup, or the drug-dog, they get called. (Amazing how much trouble you can stop just by having a drug dog in the school.)

      4. The story I saw said that the cop WAS there, but they never ran into each other. From what someone else said, with there being multiple buildings, this is not hard to believe.

        1. So you can get a visual of how much dang ground the cop was covering:

          Baker’s dozen of BIG buildings, and about four dozen of the little prefab mobile classroom looking things.
          Seven parking lots.
          Football field, ball field, two soccer fields, 13 tennis courts, 12 basketball courts, two race-tracks, and what looks like three field-sports race things. You know, long jump, etc.

          Roughly half a mile by a quarter mile.

    1. By the time I graduated in the 1970s, most local schools were single-point-of-entry. The high school I went to didn’t even have windows; all it needed was the double fence and concertina wire, and it would have made a dandy penitentiary. I’ve read that many schools have metal detectors and “police resource officers.”

      I dunno… the schools seem to polarize between “prison” and “nothing will ever happen here.”

      After the media pumped “poisoned Tylenol” years ago, there was a rash of me-too tampering from people who saw it on TV and thought it was a dandy idea. Makes me wonder how many school shootings are similar.

      1. At least one of those cases was ” Murder my spouse with a cyanide pill, and cover it up by putting the same poison pills in other bottles in the store.” They caught the person, but only after somebody else died.

      2. Wow, the schools I attended even post-1970’s had multiple entrance/exit points, but it was a small rural-ish town.

        And during the Tylenol Poisonings time, I was just a bit surprised that whoever did it went with Tylenol when the TV commercials that might give one the idea were for Contac. They showed the capsule being pulled apart.

    2. Mass shooters are almost invariably stopped when met with armed resistance whether from law enforcement or citizens. They are typically killed, captured, or commit suicide. The Broward case is unusual in that the shooter apparently attempted to escape before the police arrived.
      To me the best possible path to address school shootings would be to offer teachers the opportunity to receive proper training from approved instructors then be given a limited deputy status and authorized to body carry concealed while on school property. Certainly not all teachers, not even a majority, but a scattering sufficient that an attacker could not possibly count on a gun free environment to carry out their slaughter of innocent victims.
      And still today as seems always to be the case the left are demanding that we make all those icky guns just go away. But that solution has already been implemented in the UK, no handguns, strict limits on repeating long arms, and they still suffer terrorist attacks and oddly enough according to UN statistics have a violent crime rate five times that of heavily armed America. Seems as though if gun control were the true answer that would not be the case.

      1. I do wish more states had programs like FASTER in Ohio and Colorado. Not only tactical response to attacks, but casualty care as well. I wish I had the time to take such a course myself, but I’d rather the space go to someone who would have a better chance to save children.

    3. On the one hand I agree, on the other hand I am holding up a meme with:

      a picture of Ahnuld T1000 mode captioned :What parents want”

      a picture of Barney Fife captioned “What schools will get.”

      I used t be all for arming teachers but given the number of stories floating about telling of teachers raping having carnal knowledge of students and some of the things reportedly said. things that make Ward Churchill seem moderate …

        1. IMO if you can’t qualify for a CCL/CHL/CCW you have no business being a teacher/school administrator

          1. Short of something like “legally blind,” I’d have trouble arguing with that.

            Wonder if that’s part of why the resistance…..

      1. Good point. My teacher’s probably advocating it not because she believes in RKBA (unless she’s had an incredibly abrupt shift of opinion, she doesn’t) but because she’s an ex-Marine and was trained to handle firearms by the finest instructors at the finest institution of learning in the United States: Parris Island.

    4. Boss and at least another coworker in the office are in the absolute control crowd. Thing is, they point to other countries without the high rate of firearm homicides because it’s so hard to get a gun there, but they completely ignore the cultural differences of attitudes about violence in the first place.

      1. If they mention the UK, point out that the UK doesn’t report their homicide rate– they report their murder rate, which means that the killer has been found guilty and run out of appeals.

        This usually flips folks out.

        1. And as I mentioned earlier the UK with their extreme gun control has a violent crime rate five times higher than the US. Also, apparently citizens have no natural right to self defense as victims of break ins get charged with a crime if they decide to use force to defend themselves.

          1. Government officials have officially said that a woman facing a rapist having anything other than a whistle to defend herself with is illegal.

          2. That’s just gun advocate propaganda, y’know, Uncle Lar. After all, Euros know soooo much better than those American hooligans that love them some serious fake news, right?

            (No, I’m not being serious. Excuse me I have a lot of dripping sarcasm I spilled over here. Gotta clean that up…)

          1. I actually like the idea of a murder rate as separate from a homicide rate, although I’m not wild about the whole “run out of appeals” thing, but I’d want it as a supplementary category– homicide, suicide, possible homicide, murder with known killer.

            The problem comes in folks trying to apply totally different measurements to the same thing.

            Well, that and the stupid conflation of all homicides with murder, as if (*glares at idiot over at PJ media she still isn’t sure isn’t a false-flag*) the guy who strangles a girl with her undies is morally equal to that girl shooting him dead when he tries.

            1. A few months back that bastion of clear rational thought, the Souther Poverty Law Center, put forth the argument that cases of defensive gun use were extremely rare in the US. Their proof was that there had been less than 200 justifiable homicides by private citizens over the past ten years.
              You do see their trick of course, the fallacious argument that somehow it only counts as a legitimate defensive use of a firearm if the victim shoots and kills their attacker. Shot and wounded, doesn’t count. Held at gunpoint for the authorities to arrive, doesn’t count. Criminal flees when they realize their potential target is armed, doesn’t count.
              Doesn’t help that national media rarely will carry a story where an armed citizen defends themselves, and I have been told there is actually a verbal agreement with news agencies to never cover any case where a minor uses a gun in defense of themselves or a loved one. You see it would encourage kids to think that fighting back was a legitimate course of action, and we simply cannot allow that. Though I do seem to recall a few recent stories of that nature managing to slip through the cracks in the liberal news wall.

              1. I did get warned about this!

                It made it so I had an answer ready when someone brought it up– I asked them how many people they knew had been threatened with a gun by a criminal, but not reported it.

                Got the idea across.


                The page “Guns Save Lives” is great for fighting that kind of conspiracy– it even had the 14 year old boy who came home, the guys busting back the door had to know he was home, and they were trying to bust in with a gun anyway.

                Well, he knew where mom’s pistol was…and he’d been exposed to basic gun safety with it….

                IIRC, the one with the knife died, the other one was picked up trying to get to the hospital. And that’s with the kid shooting through the door, after yelling, and I believe he called the cops, too.

              2. You do see their trick of course, the fallacious argument that somehow it only counts as a legitimate defensive use of a firearm if the victim shoots and kills their attacker.

                My usual smartassed response is to note that they are far more bloodthirsty than the gun owners they hate.

    5. Fun thought – provide schools with at least one riot shield per room. Probably at least one teacher, or in middle/high school, probably some students, too, would be willing to charge a shooter with that kind of protection. Once he’s down, the ones following the leader can apply some curb stomping.

      1. Found this en route to looking up other items:

        ROTC student used Kevlar sheets to shield students from gunfire
        A Junior ROTC student jumped into action when he heard the gunfire – ushering classmates into a classroom where he used Kevlar sheets to help protect them from the mass killer, according to a report.

        Colton Haab, 17, ushered up to 70 people into a JROTC classroom at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, as the bullets from an AR-15 flew.

        “We took those sheets, and we put them in front of everybody so they weren’t seen, because they were behind a solid object and the Kevlar would slow the bullet down,” Haab told CNN on Thursday.

        “I didn’t think it was going to stop it, but it would definitely slow it down to make it from a catastrophic to a lifesaving thing,” the quick-thinking youngster added.

        The Junior Reserve Officer Training Corps students use the Kevlar sheets as a backdrop during marksmanship practice. The material is used to make bullet-proof vests.

        Luckily, the Kevlar was not needed because the deranged gunman didn’t enter the JROTC room – but Haab said he and a pal had a plan just in case.

        “I was a little scared. I was more worried about getting home safe, making sure everybody got home safe,” he told CNN.

        “God forbid, if he did come into the classroom. I didn’t want that to happen, but if it did, I would try to stop him with another friend of mine that was with us.”

        He added: “We grabbed two pieces of two-by-four, a fire extinguisher and a chair,” Haab said. “We were going to try to stop him with whatever we had,” according to Reuters.

        Haab said he saw heroic football coach and security guard Aaron Feis running toward the gunman to help shield the students before he, too, was fatally shot.

        “That’s Coach Feis. He wants to make sure everybody is safe before himself,” Haab told CNN.

        “He’s definitely in a better place now. I’m glad that he didn’t suffer that much. It’s sad because it’s not going to be the same without him at school anymore.”

    6. This guy wanted to GET AWAY and actually DID!!!
      I don’t recall ever hearing of a school shooter who even tried to get away.
      He had no plan what to DO after he got away, but he was free as a bird.

      Even for school shooters this kid is ODD!

      1. Gamed it out with my husband– especially the kids who are saying their friend was shot down next to them, but he didn’t even take a shot at them, and add in that he had a shotgun, set up a shooting gallery, and then used a rifle….

        It sounds like he had specific targets chosen.

  20. I was home schooled before home schoolers were required to take tests. We needed to be tested… imho. But here is the question– who writes the test? Whose bias?

    1. The test will be provided by Unionized Public Employees, and biased to remove children from the home and place them in the care of said UPEs. This is how school boards increase their power and their budgets. That is the purpose of testing home schoolers.

      1. I know… still testing would be good if the UPE wasn’t involved. My reason was because my parents didn’t do the teaching. I was the oldest child and got to teach my siblings reading and basic math at 14 years old.

      2. This is also why “mental health” removal of gun rights must be resisted. We share living quarters with people we CANNOT trust based on their philosophy, and they’ve proven it in real life.

        1. Fairly simple:
          if they’re crazy enough you need to take away their guns, they’re crazy enough you need to lock them up because cars, bombs and poison are a hell of a lot more effective.

          And it’s really hard to “lose” someone in the medical system, vs how they tend to “lose” guns.

      3. I’m going to throw the flag on this one. It might be the purpose some or most places, but in Virginia we’ve had a LOT of freedom. The obvious purpose of the tests was to make sure you were actually teaching your kids and not just letting them run feral.

        Even on the tests, you only had to score >30%, or show improvement from the previous year. You could also take the test twice, iirc.

          1. The in-law requirements– which you may have to fight the district to notice, in addition to informing them that you do not need their permission to homeschool, you only have to give them notice:

            Each year by August 1, you must provide to your superintendent an evaluation showing that your child has achieved an adequate level of educational growth and progress. (This does not apply if your child was 5 or younger on September 30 at the start of the school year.)

            There are four types of evaluations you can submit:

            Results of any nationally-normed standardized achievement test showing the child attained “a composite score in or above the fourth stanine” (i.e., 23rd percentile)—this could be an ACT, SAT, or PSAT score;
            An evaluation letter from a person licensed to teach in any state, or a person with a master’s degree or higher in an academic discipline, who knows about the child’s academic progress, stating that the child is achieving an adequate level of educational growth and progress;
            A report card or transcript from a community college or college, college distance learning program, or home-education correspondence school; or
            Another type of “evaluation or assessment which the division superintendent determines to indicate that the child is achieving an adequate level of educational growth and progress.” (If you plan to submit this type of assessment, you should discuss this with the school system early in the school year.)

    2. Those states requiring tests all require that they be…the public school tests.

      Which means it’s the exact same !@#%$@# that you would get in public schools, but with a less hostile environment.

      No, thank you. Nobody is checking that the schools actually manage to teach anything, shouldn’t put higher standards on the home schoolers.

      1. Can’t remember where it was but IIRC at least one state tried to say homeschoolers had to take the official tests. The parents said, “Okay, we can hold them to the same standards of performance on the tests as the kids in the public schools, what are those?” and the state went curiously quiet.

        1. Teacher PACs have big clout in Arkansas, even though school performance was poor. Governor Frank White enacted a “minimum qualification” teacher test.which enraged the PACs and teacher unions. Supposedly, one teacher committed suicide after failing the test, which was too stringent for any reasonable person to ecpect a teacher to pass. The PACs pumped huge money into their own handpicked candidate at the next election. “Dollar Billy” Clinton, who was the PAC sock puppet after being elected, gave them anything they wanted, eventually reducing the Arkansas school system to the point where, at 49th in the nation, the de facto motto became “Thank God for Mississippi.”

          The “too hard” test Governor White inflicted on the teachers was, supposedly, an a cut-down version of the G.E.D.

      2. Well– just a little background on my side of the issue. My mother and father went to work and left the home schooling to me. I would have liked to have at least a curriculum then. I was 14.

        1. I remember.

          I didn’t address it without you bringing it up, though, but… they would have done that no matter what the rules were.

          When you were doing that, you were by law supposed to be in a public school.

          Didn’t change anything, did it?

          The folks who don’t give a crud about the rules will not be stopped by more– look at the case they’re trying to pin on homeschoolers, out of California. I follow basically mommyblogs for homeschoolers and they are getting activist trolls showing up trying to pin kids who were legally truants on “homeschooling.” Nevermind that several were adults, and one was IN COLLEGE.

          Nope, the magic of more regulation would stop the sadistic SOBs.
          I can’t remember if it was Mary or Suburbanbanshee, but over on MGC we chased a guy around in circles until he eventually had to hide in claiming that the small fraction of kids in poverty who don’t already have a computer and internet at home meant that everybody should be in public schools.
          Annoying thing is, he could’ve used the daycare argument and had a much firmer stance.

          1. “I follow basically mommyblogs for homeschoolers and they are getting activist trolls showing up trying to pin kids who were legally truants on “homeschooling.””

            See “trust-based society”, and why Leftists are incompatible with it.

          2. I have a close friend who homeschooled her four boys– because they were so active the public schools wanted to medicate them. She did it right and the boys (now men in their twenties) are productive and very smart– and very creative. I personally am not against homeschooling btw. But yea– in my personal situation they would have done it that way whatever the rules were.

            I think our schools would be better (public) if they were controlled by the communities they are in.. .than by a general authority. I look at them now and do recognize that they are propaganda mills instead of schools.

            1. We’re just trying to out-think the malicious SOBs together, basically, right?

              For what it’s worth, there are already options for Doing Something when people aren’t teaching their kids anything, but declare that they’re homeschooling.

              It just puts the burden of proof on those making the accusation, rather than on the parents, which lowers the options for harassment.

          3. Funny thing there– I was accepted into BYU because of my SAT… and was able to do 2 years of college without having a high school diploma lol. Because of that 2 years of college, I was able to go into the Navy. But after my Navy service I had to get a GED so that I could finish my college degree. Irony–

            1. When I went to college, they didn’t even ask if I had a high school diploma, just “where did you attend high school. *Nobody* has ever asked if I had a diploma; here, it’s just an attendance certificate, and you get one automatically if you warm a seat until graduation day.

              I dropped out of the mandatory public daycare system when I turned 18 and could escape without the truant officers dragging me back, told my employer I was now available to work full time, and laughed every time anyone blathered about how critical a high school diploma was…

            1. I believe it varies by state, but the short version is that as far as truancy court goes, there is no “legal adult.” If you’re a legal adult not living at home, you can un-enroll yourself. (Which probably consists of going “excuse me, officer, what part of legal adult is not clear to you?)
              But it’s very much by state, and as HSLDA’s files show, a lot of the folks enforcing the rules don’t understand them.

              Or did you mean the “Wait, there were how many adults in that household?” angle?

              1. That strikes me as hella-weird. I can understand a minor having to be in school and thus subject to something like that, but an adult?

                1. It’s one of those things where it’s to keep schools from kicking kids out when they hit 18, even though they haven’t graduated.

                  Usually it’s not spelled out unless someone pushes it, and there’s usually case law involved. (Shows up for HSLDA when social services tries to remove things like orphan’s benefits from a kid who is being homeschooled, when someone in public school wouldn’t lose them.)

                  1. Interesting. Because at least west coast, a kid has to be 5 before first of the month, the month school starts to start kindergarten. Then there are the kids, most especially boys, that are held back to start if their birthdays are in the summer. This means MOST kids are 18 well before Senor Year Graduation. I know more than a few that were 19. Not sure when this all changed. When I started school, cut off date was Oct 31 (6 on or before to start 1st grade, no kindergarten back then). Worked out that couple of classmates were non-twin siblings that were in the same grade, they were just under a year apart, one born in late November, the other mid-October the following year.

                    1. I think Texas has it by Sept 30th, and I can’t remember for Washington, but yeah– most of the time, kids are 18 before that.

                      Thus, the gray area.

                    2. When I was starting school, they apparently alternated years of starting children early or not, for first grade at least. And the cutoff seems to have been the end of the year (I don’t know the rules for kindergarten, I didn’t go). One of my classmates’s birthday is December 20th, IIRC, so he is two months younger than me, and we graduated at 17.

                    3. When siblings & cousins started school cut off was Oct 31, Nov 1 birthdays waited. My birthday is mid-Oct, I started at age 5 for first grade (no kindergarten). Cousins’ born same year: one early-December, had to wait a year, other born mid-September, parents waited a year. Same state same criteria. Yes, I was 17 when I graduated & started college.

                      Fast forward 38 years, rules have changed. If you were not 5 before first day of school, does not matter if it is one day latter, you didn’t start kindergarten, period (couple of siblings kids birthdays are Sept 6 & 8, both had to wait); parents can petition, but districts make it very difficult hurdle. Had a neighbor who tried, district & state came down very solid NO. Kid first part of 1st grade district wanted to skip her into 3rd grade. Parents came down with a solid NO. She has made grade age friends, you created the situation, DEAL WITH IT. They ended up losing the house, lost contact.

                      Son’s Birthday is late June, he started at age 5 & graduated at 17, but was 18 before starting college. Classmates, especially male, whose birthdays were ranging between mid-July to Aug 31, were held back by parents (usually for sports reasons, some for maturity), plus anyone’s whose birthday was on or before graduation were 18 before graduating (granted some not by much). Then there are those who were not only held out by parents, but for whatever reason were held back, usually in Kindergarten or 1st grade. I know one kid who was 19 almost 20, by the time he graduated from HS. Good kid. Eagle Scout (which is how we know him, one of my kids best friends, although he was 2 years ahead in grade & 3 years older). He comes from a non-academic family, whose mother is barely literate, father is functionally illiterate, which did not help academically, especially in the early years. His younger sibling had it easier, because HE was able to help where his parents couldn’t.

                      My siblings kids whose birthdays are all in August. Two started school on time, one they held back. The one they held back, at least until HS, was obvious, he is a BIG kid; as in being in restaurants when younger someone would (complain) say “Your kid is acting like a 5 year old”, sarcastic response was “Thank you, he’s only 2.” He will graduate when he is 18 & start college when he is 19.

                      The age limit for starting school (at least public) varies not only based on where you live, but when you are starting. Locally, currently, even if you qualify for “head start” or can afford pre-school, the kid does not start kindergarten unless they are 5 on first day of school, no matter how academically advanced, with a very, very, few exceptions.

                    4. I have recently seen article about couples timing their IVF implantations to optimize their offspring’s timing for entering school. I did not read the article, so did not notice when that optimum date was presumed to be.

                    5. Depends. Are they targeting age for Kindergarten, HS spots & college? College, it’s the older they graduate from HS & start college without taking a sabbatical year or 2 between HS & college. It is harder to go back to school after time off. HS Sports, older, presumably more coordinated, & generally larger sooner. Hmmm, more I type, more I’m thinking late fall, early winter.

                      Kidsports locally has tried to group kids by age, not by grade. Boy was there a fuss on that! After my kids’ time so did not follow it that close. But I understand. Example. Jr Flag Football was 6 & 7 grouped together. My kid who was smaller & did not get the growth spurt until HS, was half the size of some of the kids on the 7th grade side, who turned out to be not one but 2 years older. Then you have the kids who are just BIG to begin with & you get snide comments “Ringer”, “Check his birth certificate, no way he’s a 7th grader.” — Actual comments heard about my nephew. Kid is BIG. He is just 16 & 6’4″ (taller than his dad) & growing.

                    6. I’ve got cousins– one male, one female.

                      The guy is a grade older than the girl, but she’s big and he’s got my mom’s family height, and his mom’s family build. Tiny.

                      Her entire life she had to put up with people (who really should’ve known better, it was a fairly small town) yammering about how she was acting “childish” while her cousin, who was acting the way she should’ve been, was called “cute” and excused with “oh, he’s just a little boy. But you should know better!”

                    7. N.B. – I did not endorse the strategy nor suggest it might be effective. I simply note people are trying too game the system and the means by which they were opting to do so.

                      It might well be akin to the strategy played by China’s one-child policy (or, if you prefer an SF reference, Barrayar’s adoption of galactic technology for child selection) of selecting for boy children because they were previously preferentially treated.

                      When everybody is putting their money on one strategy it can be pretty profitable to bet the opposite way.

    3. In Virginia, we could use the SOL tests, another standardized test, or…
      we could actually provide a portfolio of work through the year, demonstrating progress in the work assigned.
      Virginia has been fabulous about homeschooling. Shame it’s going blue.

      (We did the portfolio exactly once. The wife found it a pain in the butt to put together – but she also overthinks things.)

  21. Schools are now a jobs program, and very successful. They keep steadily adding administrators. What do they administer? Money mostly. Students? You’d think they are a secondary issue they would do away with if there was any way to defend the system’s existence without them.

    1. Students are merely the intermediaries between the budget and the people who provide appropriations. Other than that, they’re a pain in the ass to be dealt with as quickly and cheaply as possible.

  22. I think it took me years after high school to stop having vivid dreams where I was trapped in school and trying to get out.

    Something like this?

      1. Including the thought that waking up to being tortured is a good reason to feel relieved? 😉

  23. I have more books than I can ever possibly read. I wish I could manage to learn how to learn consistently from books, rather than paging though them lightly and picking out a thing here and a thing there, maybe as much as a chapter or two. I imagine my education would be far advanced of where it is.

    Then again, I seem to have to learn in conjunction with pursuing some project – that seems to stick with me best.

    Like my writing projects, real life seems to intervene, and by the time I’ve eked out some time again, my “channel has changed” as far as what I’m interested in.

  24. Two of my kids are attending LTUE, and several other children/young teens are attending with parents because they homeschool (or have parents very willing to allow them the experience of the conference and will check them out of school)for it because “learning experience” better than classroom experience.

  25. If any of you have kids, they have a unique opportunity that I only caught the very beginning of when I was going through school:

    You can find books on *anything* for free online. They may not be the best, but sometimes you can get superlative things by people who revolutionized the world, or the original material that great physicists and engineers themselves learned from.

    The Art of Electronics
    Machinery’s Handbook
    Landaus series on physics
    and so on and so forth.

    My library of random pdfs is pretty extensive at this point.

    Whether your kid is trapped in public school or not, they have the opportunity to find material to learn on their own.

    1. The Navy’s NEETS manuals are on line, for free, EVERYWHERE.

      You want a totally open-ended electrical training focused science class, but are afraid you don’t know enough?

      Here, have the stuff that sleep-deprived sailors and Marines use to learn how to work on airplanes in less than a standard school year! (It has a bunch of other stuff worked in, too, which seemed to make it stick better.)

      CHAPTER 1


      Learning objectives are stated at the beginning of each chapter. These learning objectives serve as a preview of the information you are expected to learn in the chapter. The comprehensive check questions are based on the objectives. By successfully completing the NRTC, you indicate that you have met the objectives and have learned the information. The learning objectives are listed below.

      Upon completing this chapter, you will be able to:

      1. State the meanings of and the relationship between matter, element, nucleus, compound, molecule, mixture, atom, electron, proton, neutron, energy, valence, valence shell, and ion.

      2. State the meanings of and the relationship between kinetic energy, potential energy, photons, electron orbits, energy levels, and shells and subshells.

      3. State, in terms of valence, the differences between a conductor, an insulator, and a semiconductor, and list some materials which make the best conductors and insulators.

      4. State the definition of static electricity and explain how static electricity is generated.

      5. State the meanings of retentivity, reluctance, permeability, ferromagnetism, natural magnet, and artificial magnet as used to describe magnetic materials.

      6. State the Weber and domain theories of magnetism and list six characteristics of magnetic lines of force (magnetic flux), including their relation to magnetic induction, shielding, shape, and storage.

      7. State, using the water analogy, how a difference of potential (a voltage or an electromotive force) can exist. Convert volts to microvolts, to millivolts, and to kilovolts.

      8. List six methods for producing a voltage (emf) and state the operating principles of and the uses for each method.

      9. State the meanings of electron current, random drift, directed drift, and ampere, and indicate the direction that an electric current flows.

      10. State the relationship of current to voltage and convert amperes to milliamperes and microamperes.

      11. State the definitions of and the terms and symbols for resistance and conductance, and how the temperature, contents, length and cross-sectional area of a conductor affect its resistance and conductance values.

      12. List the physical and operating characteristics of and the symbols, ratings, and uses for various types of resistors; use the color code to identify resistor values.


      The origin of the modern technical and electronic Navy stretches back to the beginning of naval history, when the first navies were no more than small fleets of wooden ships, using wind-filled sails and manned oars. The need for technicians then was restricted to a navigator and semiskilled seamen who could handle the sails.

      As time passed, larger ships that carried more sail were built. These ships, encouraging exploration and commerce, helped to establish world trade routes. Soon strong navies were needed to guard these sea lanes. Countries established their own navies to protect their citizens, commercial ships, and shipping lanes against pirates and warring nations. With the addition of mounted armament, gunners joined the ship’s company of skilled or semiskilled technicians.

  26. a) gun control is pointless because bombs are more effective, and harder to control. Basically you would need to restrict education in reading and math to only people who could be considered reliably stable.
    b) Last administration’s ‘addressing terrorism is best done by addressing poverty’ claim implies that growing up poor causes a depraved mind set likely to result in terrorism, crime, and spree shootings. The remaining legitimate justification for government support for education is access by the poor. If the poor should not be educated, government can be removed from education without harm. (This is an admission against personal interest.)
    c) Who is reliably stable enough for access to firearms and explosives, if reliable stability is the test? The union of sets 1) adults who have lived a long period of time under the observation of a legal system capturing useful data 2) who are not using certain classes of substances recreationally 3) If psychiatric medication is used to provide stability, what drugs, do they take them consistently, etc… In practice this means restricted civil rights for some rather broad categories, and the pro gun control factions are absolutely not going to deliver the necessary concessions on immigration reform, criminal justice reform, etc…
    d) Remember the deinstitutionalization? Are we prepared to deliver or tolerate the conditions for a reinstitutionalization that would be sufficiently broad as to completely prevent school shootings?
    e) This isn’t addressing the issue of whether the public schools are sufficiently destructive as to be a root cause.
    f) OT: Black Panther. I was originally planning a ‘Black Panther is morally equivalent to Red Skull’ talking point. Then I read the National Review review of the movie, which you should read. Now I have ‘The Social Justice talk was merely protective coloration for mainstreaming whiteness. #OreoPanther’.
    g) Following from that, reexamine Manson’s techniques and contrast with modern youth sexual mores, which are heavily shaped by the education establishment and organized pop culture. Modern young women behaving in ways sexually that don’t really work for women might be shaped by the experience in ways similar to Manson’s behavioral modification. If this is so, one could posit that the same broad umbrella of social engineering is similarly destructive of young men’s capacity for sanity and peace.
    h) everything has costs and tradeoffs. Gun control in theory counters the risk of spree shootings. An armed population counters the risk of mass murder by making the cost much higher. tl;dr I accept the risk of spree shooters, because it is very important to minimize the risks of much more deaths that the likes of Blokhin, Stroop et al. would cause.

  27. As I believe that all here know this, beware what you wish for you might get it. Gun Control – It gets done and it works. What is a nut to do? He still wants to take out a school or such. He has seen a lot of movies and he saw something that would be GREAT! A Flame Thrower!! Parts you can by at a Home Depot, easy to build, test it with water, and it is LEGAL!! You are just building a Super Soaker!! Now that school or movie theater can really be lit up. People will be wishing that he had used a gun.

    Remember a Columbine they had 2 propane tanks rigged to go off. They just didn’t trigger them or they messed up the trigger. If it had gone off would the Libs be talking about the GUNS that were used??

    1. They characterized the TWO guys, one of whom was fairly popular, as “loners” who were “isolated” since they did the freaking attack.

      Also characterized them as “obviously far right” because one guy’s…step dad, I think?.. was an Air Force officer. (I think. It was something where you wonder if they KNOW any officers.)

      They ignored the blocked doors.

      Yes, they would just be talkign about the dang guns.

      1. They typically work backwards, making assumptions about the characteristics of the perpetrator(s) based on their profiling, rather than developing their profile based on the perp characteristics.

        Did that with Oswald being Right-Wing, done it every time since. That’s one reason James T. Hodgkinson, the guy who shot Rep. Scalise and (at) others has been dropped into the memory hole.

        1. Oswald, the guy who was enough of a Commie to try and defect to the USSR, as a right winger. OMFG

    2. Of course they would. It’s not truth they’re pushing but narrative. Same as how the white supremacist militia angle will keep bouncing around because it wasn’t necessary to debunk it when police denied it.

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