There is a war between the men and the women- A Blast From The Past Post 2006-12-7

*Yes, yes, another report from the closet with the see through door.  Actually this was the first time I visibly stepped out of line, the first issue that bugged the almighty cr*p out of me enough that I threw a fit publicly on line.  This was back when I was on LJ and it got SO MUCH backlash from my colleagues and hints that I’d never work in this town again, that I had to close it to public view.  Now, of course, I’m a bonafide traitor to my gender (who knew you could be betray something you had no choice about or that you owed any loyalty to strangers who only shared a characteristic with you.  Oh, wait, Marxists know.  Like the shadow they know the evil that lurks in the heart of the unsorted, un-group alligiance men women humans widgets.  And they’re more than willing to mau mau the person that steps out of line.  Well, that’s too bad, because this here too-tall-nail has decided it’s more moral, more interesting and far more fun to hammer back.*

And the women are winning.  And this is a bad thing.  Seriously.  Indulge me.

I know this goes completely against everything you’ve ever heard and learned.  History — and SF — is full of dreamers who are convinced that if women ruled the world it would all be beauty flowers and non aggression.  (To these dreamers I say spend a week as a girl in an all-girl school.  It will be a rude awakening.)

Dreamers of the Dan Brown stripe posit a peaceful female worship, with yet more beauty and flowers and non-aggression.  They ignore the fact that 99% of the goddess-worshipping religions were scary.  And don’t tell me that’s patriarchal slander — it’s not.  The baby-killing of Astoreth worship has been documented extensively.  (Of course, the Phoenicians were equal-opportunity baby killers.)  The castrations of Cybele worship were also well documented.  Now, I can hardly imagine a female divinity without imagining hormonal episodes requiring appeasement — but that’s because I’m a woman of a certain age, and that’s fodder for another altogether different discussion.  Suffice it to say that the maiden and mother usually also had a crone persona who was … er… “not a nice person.”

Anyway — all this to say since I joined the MOB (Mothers Of Boys) the scales about such things as the inherent equality of men and women as far as their brain structure and basic behavior have fallen from my eyes.  (Well, the scales that remained.  My experience in school notwithstanding, I’d been TAUGHT that females were getting the short end of the stick and that’s a hard thing to overcome.  Learned wisdom is so much more coherent than lived wisdom, after all.)

Again — indulge me — I’m going to make a lot of statements I can too back up, but which would take very, very, very long to document — so it will seem like I’m ranting mid air.  Stay with it.  If I feel up to it later, I’ll post some references.

Yes, women have been horribly oppressed throughout history including the rather disgusting Victorian period that most Americans seem to believe is how ALL of history went.  I contend, though, that women were not oppressed by some international conspiracy of males — yes, I know what Women’s Studies professors say.  I would however remind you we’re talking of a group of people who a) have issues finding their own socks in the dresser they’ve used for ten years.  b) Are so good at communicating as a group that they couldn’t coordinate their way out of a wet paper bag, or to quote my friend Kate, couldn’t organize a bonk in a brothel.  (In most large organizations the “social/coordinating” function is performed by females at various levels.) c) That women being oppressed by a patriarchy so thorough it altered history and changed all records of peaceful female religion would require a conspiracy lasting thousands of years and involving almost every male on Earth.  If you believe that, I have this bridge in NY that I would like to sell you. — Women were oppressed by their own bodies.

Throughout most of history women had no safe and effective means of stopping pregnancy. — please, spare me the “herbal” remedies.  I grew up in a village that had little access to medicine.  If there had been an effective means of preventing pregnancy we’d have known it.  TRUST me.  There are abortificients, but they endanger the mother as well.  However, until the pill there was no safe contraceptive.  The herbal contraceptive is a plot device dreamed up by fantasy writers.  Also, btw, the People’s Republic of China TESTED all these methods (including swallowing live tadpoles at the full moon.)  NONE of them worked.  SERIOUSLY.*

What this meant in practical fact is that most women were pregnant from menarche to menopause, if they were lucky to live that long.  I’ve been pregnant.  If you haven’t, take it from me it’s not a condition conducive to brilliant discourse or reasoned logic.  On top of that, of course, women would suffer the evils of repeated child bearing with no rest.  In effect this DID make women frail and not the intellectual equals of men.  And it encouraged any male around to “oppress” them.  I.e., when the majority of females around you need a minder, you’re going to assume ALL females need a minder.  It’s human nature.  Note that beyond suffrage, the greatest advance in women’s equality came from the pill.  Not a coincidence, that.

However, the people who think that women were oppressed by an international historical cabal rule the establishment.  Including the educational establishment.  I find it hilarious that in their minds men/boys are so powerful that they must be kept back and are suspected of being criminals just because they have a penis.  This is attributing them god-like powers to rival what any Victorian housewife would believe.

Anyway — these people have decided all efforts must be made to equal male and female performance in school.  Since, in practical fact, this is impossible since males and females develop at different paces and favor different areas, they’ve settled for hobbling the all-powerful males.

You see this everywhere from Saturday morning cartoons to kindergarten to all the grades beyond.  In cartoons these days, the girls ALWAYS rescue the boys.  (They do it while keeping impeccably groomed hair, too.  Impressive, that.)  And in school all the girls are assumed to be right and all the boys are assumed to be wrong.

Because it’s been determined girls learn better in groups — not all girls.  I HATED group work.  But most girls — group work rules the class.  Because girls do better in homework, particularly of the “decorating and coloring” kind, this homework persists well into highschool — even with no pedagogical excuse.  Because single-sex education is good for BOTH genders, but BETTER for boys, single-sex education is anathema.

As a matter of fact I don’t  know ANY parents of boys who haven’t been told their sons are ADHD at some point and told the boy needs ritalin.  Even my older son, who is almost as verbally inclined as a girl, and who has always been interested in learning had this pushed at him in first grade.  Middle school is insane for boys, as their verbal skills at that age lag well behind the girls.  They are not only behind academically, they also tend to have issues working in groups.  Boys are accused of sexual harassment on a regular basis at this age.  No girl ever is.

I remember going to the parent teacher conference for my older son, in sixth grade, and sitting in the hallway listening to the other parents.  All the parents whose children had perfect grades were parents of girls.  All the parents whose children were inexplicably not doing well, despite high IQs, were parents of boys.

You’re not outraged?  Reverse those.  Perhaps it will help.  Imagine that our method for teaching teens was leaving all the girls out in the cold and favoring boys.  Wouldn’t it shock you?  It should.

On top of all, we’re fostering a victim mentality in these girls.  We’re giving them the advantages AND telling them boys are oppressing them — these all powerful creatures from which there is no escape.

You’re not worried?  You should be.

If an alien species had devised a way to stop the human race from reproducing they wouldn’t have come up with a better way to drive both girls and boys crazy.

Look — this is striking at the core of our society.  by which I don’t mean American or even western society.  I mean SOCIETY.  Human.  Association.

Insofar as that goes — and without in anyway defending it — there is a reason that, given the chance (mostly by nature and that pesky pregnancy thing) societies become ridiculously anti-woman.  There is a reason Islamic countries are terrified of the female half of their population — no, don’t want to hear anything about higher observances.  Female circumcision.  Veiling (anyone who thinks those who put women in slip covers respect women needs his or her head examined.)  Women’s testimony being worth half of the man’s.  Women punished for being raped.  If that’s respect and kindness, give me insult and intolerance any day — there is a reason Imperial China circumscribed females to non-human status.

The reason is that we ARE more powerful than they are.

No, seriously.  And I’m not talking about the ability to bear life within us, or some such chestnut dreamed up by an anthropologist.  I’m talking about — creating social links.

Women, perhaps because they were the child caretakers and therefore had to be able to communicate child care lore as well as teach the children, seem to have learned to organize and create cooperative links.  Men’s brains seem to run to hierarchies — the order giving necessary to cooperative hunting — while women’s brains run to networks — the communication lines necessary to pass on recipes and child care tips.

The farther we go back, the more we’re sure the greatest innovations leading to civilization were the work of women: agriculture.  Animal domestication.

I’m going to take a wild leap and assume we also invented language.  Stands to reason “Gog go around mammoth from front” is far less complex than “Iga make sure child doesn’t eat poisonous berries.”

In that sense we MADE society.  We fit into society naturally.  Our aggression is verbal, social.  It’s an aggression that consists in freezing out and/or going around people.  Male aggression consists of hitting someone over the head.  Our society — any advanced society — condones the first, but not the last.

We are — so to put it — house broken.  Males aren’t.  Young males MUST be trained to fit into society.  Young females instinctively know how to go around and manipulate the system. (Yes, I’m talking generally.  I had no social clue and was very much male in my approach.)

THIS, ladies, is our turf.  They had a handle on us while continuous pregnancy weakened us.  They could even get the upper hand and push us to a corner.

NOW they can’t.  Science has equalized the odds.  And therefore, our superior organizational skills — ever more needed in an increasingly complex society — already give us an advantage.

On top of that our schools are treating our boys as guilty until proven innocent.  This is alienating them and making them crazy.  It’s also giving them a distaste for learning, which is why most college graduates are women.

We’ve won.  They’re on the run.

It’s now time to remember that they are our fathers/husbands/children.  It’s now time to remember that if we demand that men behave like women and become women in all but equipment only a small percentage will be able to accommodate.  The rest will become embittered, disillusioned and, ultimately, aggressive.  Because that’s how men behave when they’re not happy.

It’s time to stop driving the young warriors from the tribe to live in the wilderness.  They only become dangerous and come back in attack mode.

We’ve won.  Fly the standard.  Sound the trumpet.  And then extend your hand to the enemy — bring those boys back in.  They are no more guilty for the crimes of their ancestors who were terrified of women than the little girls today are guilty of the crimes of women who in the last four decades have been terrified of men.

It’s time to stop this nonsense.  We’re two halves of a whole.  Regardless of how your preference runs, or whether you have both genders in the home — it takes both to make a society.  Or at least a functional society.  And — until science overcomes that — it takes both to make a physical human being.

Go out there and hug a man today.

*Actually, according to the my friend Kate Paulk’s research, there was some sort of berry (?) on the coast of Tunisia that taken every day prevented conception.  This was recorded in some Roman manuscripts, and if it wasn’t a joke, become extinct within a few years.  If she shows up in comments, she might give us the name of it.

433 thoughts on “There is a war between the men and the women- A Blast From The Past Post 2006-12-7

  1. A very logical argument.

    Logic is a tool of the Patriarchy, used to oppress women.

    You know the rest.

    1. According to legend, Nero ate the last bit of silphium. How the ancients managed to drive a commercially valuable crop extinct would be a fascinating story, but I’ve never seen it really investigated.

      1. Wikipedia (disclaimer – Wiki!) doesn’t have anything concrete, but it does suggest some theories. The plant was apparently only grown in a small region along the coast of Libya. Theories include overgrazing by meat animals due to a supposed effect of the plant on the meat of the animals, overuse due to its supposed medicinal abilities (which weren’t limited to birth control), and desertification of the area that it was grown in (which *clearly* can’t be the case since global warming is a recent phenomenon! 😛 ).

        1. overgrazing by meat animals due to a supposed effect of the plant on the meat of the animals

          …Ones they weren’t planning to breed before eating?

      2. Wouldn’t be the only thing the Romans drove to extinction…

        There’s a tree that grew somewhere in North Africa that produced a legendary wood known as “citrus wood”, the source of which seems to be extinct. We know of similar woods, but the actual Roman source appears to be gone, because we no longer have any trees of this sort that produce wood in the quantities that the Romans used in making luxury furniture. It was valued highly enough that furniture made from it was enumerated on the Imperial Treasury lists.

    2. I seem to recall a Doc Savage story where silphium was an immortality drug. I guess Lester Dent decided that since it was extinct, he could attribute whatever he wanted to it.

      1. That, or (and?) the idea that a drug whose main function was as an abortifacient (thus precluding the route in which our genes ordinarily achieve immortality) as a path to immortality was an irony he could not resist.

        1. Makes story sense, not just irony. Like how immortality rituals usually involve child sacrifice– which has a bunch of bonuses, being definitely evil, symbolically eating the youth, and “where does the extra life come from” sense.

          1. One of OSC’s fantasy novels uses that as a driving point in the story. Apparently it really wigged out a lot of readers, because most of the reviews say, “Pretty good book, but ugh, the sacrifice bit!”

    3. There were a few articles about that some years ago. Even if it wasn’t a perfect contraceptive, well, even partial success rate might have made a notable difference to those people who had access.

      1. The Talmud (written down in 400-600 CE from earlier oral transmission) has a fair amount of legal discussion of a contraceptive device (specifically, its permissibility in Jewish law) called a “mokh” that seems to have been an ancestor of the cervical cap. There are also some references to abortifacient herbs of unclear effectiveness.

        1. More than permissibility—for young brides (old enough to get pregnant; too young to carry a child safely) the mokh (a wad of cloth) was required.

              1. Unless they could sterilize it, it sounds like a good way to introduce bacteria into one’s uterus. In an age with out antibiotics, it sounds deadly. If the woman is too young to have children safely, she shouldn’t be having sex.

        2. I seem to recall reading somewhere that Romans also tried similar things–like using a cervical cap made of wax, etc.

          Of course, even modern birth control, while very effective, still isn’t 100% effective. My sister-in-law managed to get pregnant on just about every form of birth control known to man…

                1. Apparently, the vasectomy my brother got shortly thereafter worked. She’s an only child.

          1. I knew a couple that had thier third kid, decided enough was enough, and he got a vasectomy. Fourth kid came, and after a lot of angst, it was determined that, yes, it was theirs. Apparently, despite the fact that he was shooting blanks, per the tests, one got through. Million to one odds, right? She had her tubes tied, anyway. Three years later, after kid five, they said to hell with it and started using birth control, again. I would not be surprised to hear of kid six…

        1. Haven’t we had enough of that in the last month or so? Just google “sad puppies and you will find all you want. Same women of both or whatever sexes too.

          1. It would be nice to point that out to the people skeptical of claims that careers have been threatened over political views.

            1. It doesn’t help that the news media in general seems to be following the narrative that both Sad Puppies and Gamergate are losing to the SJWs.

              1. Of course you should expect that from the news media, they have long been Part of the Problem and have no place as Part of the Solution. GamerGate may be in question, but the Sad Puppies contest will be decided when the Hugo’s are announced. No amount of spin will stop that.

                1. The problem is that even some of the conservative media has adopted the narrative about who is winning.

                    1. They allow a variety of voices and are open about it. That’s about the only “right wing” thing they do- unless you’re going to go with the sometimes-rule that being somewhat patriotic is “right wing.”

                    2. (including making “is a personal or political problem for me at this time” equal to “is on my right”)

                    3. How many drops of poison render a gallon of distilled water undrinkable? Allowing any badthought to take root soon corrupts all good thinking. They need to be like CNN, MSNBC & The Daily Show: only allowing third-rate conservatives on (and heavily editing them if need be) for the purpose of mocking them and ridiculing them for the entertainment and enlightenment of the masses.

                      Even pretending that a conservative thought might be legitimate undermines the entire house of cards towering edifice of logic and goodthink that has been erected.

                  1. That would only increase the impact of a Puppies win and decrease that of a Puppies loss.

                2. Not at all. Sad Puppies already won everything that they were aiming for with the nominations, with a bonus prize of SJW meltdowns admitting much more of what had been going on in the past. Any Hugo wins will just be proof that they aimed much too low and thus picked on SJW’s who were utterly helpless when exposed to the light of fandom. (what is that that “hateth the light”?).

                  1. That’s one battle in a long campaign in a longer war.

                    Never forget: the goal is Richmond. We may be marching through Georgia but the victory is not on this route.

                3. The MSM disdain for Baghdad Bob was not for what he was doing but for how badly he was doing it.

  2. Maybe I missed it in your comments but another result is that men in our society may decide the women and the society itself is not worth defending. If it’s going to make the males somehow outcast then so shall it be. And then rue the day of their alienation as the, let’s say, somewhat less civilized societies on our planet attack and the male defenders of ours go…meh?

    1. Somewhat more likely is that the men who refuse to be housebroken will either die without offspring or join the disaffected barbarians tearing down the civilized societies. Why do you think people who live in the Western world join organizations like ISIS?

      1. Or turn to foreign brides. I’m told there are several options for finding brides that are less infected with feminist stupidity (from the male perspective) than the ranting vaginas in western society.

        1. I’ve actually seen this. One of my friends from college would not date American–his first girlfriend was Thai, and his second, whom he is marrying, is Japanese.
          He also tends to consider Americans in general to be soft and self-centered–being an MK from Guatemala does that to you.

          1. Amusingly, I’ve also read about the reverse. An article talked about a woman in Russia with a post-graduate education who became a mail-order bride. Not only is the standard of living higher in the US than anywhere else, but we also tend to treat women better than just about anywhere else in the world.

            1. As a joke one time, I said I was going to order a wife off of Then I found out the site really existed. And there were quite a few women with college degrees and professions on there, specifically for that reason.

              1. My ex-girlfriend’s father used to frequent sites like those, and told me about women with PhDs in things like astrophysics and electrical enginieering who wanted to get to America. He ended up in an LTR with a Colombiana with a JD who came to live with him for a while.

              2. Sure – it makes sense. If you were a smart, intelligent ambitious Russian woman whose dictatorship would you rather live under: Putin’s or Obama’s?

              3. Now, my question is: do they have mail order husbands? Thanks to the screamers here, all the American men I know are running scared… 😀

              4. Know how I knew we’d won the Cold War?

                In 2000, I arrived in Korea for my second tour. When I got there, a good friend from a previous assignment wound up as my roommate. I arrived on a Friday, so Saturday we go out so he can show me the local village. I’m walking through the guard shack at the gate, show my pass, and nearly had a coronary event: There are easily ten or so different passports with Cyrillic writing on them up on the rack for guests who’d been allowed on the camp. Now, the last two times I was overseas, that kind of thing would have meant the end of life as we knew it, because… Commies, right?

                I start to froth at the mouth, my buddy pushes me out of the shack before I embarrass myself, and he explains to me: Things are different, now. Koreans don’t want to be bar girls, anymore, and Russians work cheaper than the competition. Soooo… Do the math.

                Over the rest of that tour, I got to know a lot of those girls from doing Courtesy Patrol in the ville. It’s disorienting as hell to talk to a bargirl and find out that she’s got a doctorate, and this is a job she’s grateful to have, at a hundred bucks a month with room and board. One incredibly gorgeous one was supporting herself, her kid sister, her mom, and the boyfriend (?!?!?) who’d gotten her the job… She was a doctoral candidate in language, and had been attending what I recognized as the most prestigious foriegn service school in Russia.

                I ended that tour really, really certain that while we may not have precisely won the Cold War, we hadn’t lost it.

            2. Japanese girls with sailors, same thing. Considering the quality of some of the guys who had no trouble finding a wife, that’s terrifying.

                1. In fact, I’m still a nice guy at heart, I just happen to mysteriously have picked up girlfriends. And I said the same thing as every other nice guy, which is “I am a nice guy, how come girls don’t like me?”

                  It means: “I am a nicer guy than Henry.”

                  Oddly, he seems to have totally blanked that he’s made one group for “women” — those who’d marry a guy who beats them, leave him, marry someone else, and then come back for an affair.

                  Unless he’s actually looking for that, rather than (as someone with sense) automatically removing those women from consideration, it’s not even the same group– so he’s lying to himself from the start. He doesn’t want women like Henry has, he wants the same results with different standards.

                  The Japanese ladies weren’t like that. Some weren’t ladies– tended to marry just long enough to get citizenship, and then split when they were treated like “Henry” treated his women, but most were just ladies. Normal, well adjusted, but willing to put up with behavior that I can’t see a Hun accepting.

                  I know first hand that some of the self-described “nice guys”– the ones that are not actually manipulative, entitled, spineless blankers– are torpedoing their relationships with things like “ask her out, then don’t speak to her for a month.” (Three, in my case, and by “speak” I’m including email and saying some variation of hello in the galley during meals.)

                  Or “only ask out women from the exact same sub-group as the last six failures.” (that one I see mostly in the guys who have been divorced several times, getting utterly fleeced most of the time; picking up women at AA meetings after several failures is not a very good plan)

                  Or only counting women as “available” if they actually jump into your bed. (Biggest example of that is, strangely, a guy who is trying to be a good Christian. I’m guessing broken wing/white knight syndrome? Female version is the “they propositioned me” as a selection metric for boyfriends. Waaaaaaaay too common.)

                  They all class themselves exactly the same as the “nice guys” who simply can’t manage to find any acceptable women. I think my brother’s a twerp, of course, but some of his stories… he joined a real dancing club to meet ladies, not being crazy enough to go the bar route. The youngest lady was 30 years older than him, and married… Friend of a friend introduced him to the lady he’s now married to, because “you’re both religious and she likes to cook, go talk about Religious Stuff and eat.” Couldn’t tell Catholic brother from being a preacher’s daughter. They worked it out, probably in part because he really likes to eat.

                  Not sure how the percentages actually shake out, because my sample are mostly friends or former friends, and it’s easy to paper over the bad behavior of friends– and one is unlikely to be/stay friends with the really nasty users.

            3. Which just shows how eeeeeevul Amerikkka am! Treating women better than anywhere else in the world and still not treating ’em well enough!

              Seriously, this country is breeding generations of women so well treated they’ve almost entirely lost contact with Reality.

            4. I once went to a corporate party claiming to be somebody’s Russian mail-order bride. (Nothing else; no accent or fake history, just a blurring of the fact that I was still in college and the person I was with was a family friend.) The things you do on a lark…

          2. It is, however, by no means foolproof. My roommate after college married a Filipina and found that once they’ve been exposed to feminism, it’s more seductive than he was.

          1. I know that, and you know that. I just wish it wasn’t necessary to make the distinction.

            1. A sane western lady is a treasure beyond measure. Long sought after, rarely found, and more valuable than any dragon’s hoard.

                  1. And everyone should pray for Dan’s continued health and life. NO ONE wants me loose without my better half to control my worst instincts. No, trust me.

                    1. I see Washington D.C. wreathed in smoke from the fires at the White House and the Capitol Building, Thousands of Statists flee in terror from the burning of their houses of despotism as the flames rise like an offering to the heavens. I see a woman at the head of torch and pitchfork wielding crowd. She seems to be speaking with… I can’t tell… Is it a Russian accent?


                1. My ex actually sent me this link.
                  I responded that I was looking for a 9,3.
                  She replied by pointing out the obvious.
                  Told her that at my age attractive and easy to get along with won over any other fiddling details.
                  Haven’t heard squat from her on the subject since.

                  1. funny video. pretty is in the eye of the beholder. hubby thinks I’m prettier than I think I am.

              1. Great grandpa taught me, “Never get involved with a woman crazier than a barrel full of shaved monkeys.”

                1. That’s… awfully specific.

                  (Also far too narrow a criterion; “Don’t stick it in crazy” applies to women far less crazy than that.)

                  1. It makes more sense if you know the first half of the aphorism:
                    To men, all women are crazy.
                    To women, all men are stupid.

                    He was an interesting old coot. He brought me up on stories of The Great War, most of which ended in “and then he died,” or “and then we shot them.” He was well educated for his time and place – he finished 8th grade.

            2. Pardon me, but before I can ask you out I need you to answer two simple questions:
              Were you home schooled?
              What is your opinion of Robert A. Heinlein?
              Simple direct filter that will cut way down on the chaff.

              1. would you go out with a woman who wasn’t home schooled but does like Heinlein?

                1. College matters — avoid any of the “7 Sisters” but almost any Hillsdale or Grove graduate is worth knowing. I forget the name of that college in Virginia established specifically for home-schooled kids, but that one is probably good.

                  1. DANG! Patrick Henry College!!!

                    Don’t you hate it when the name pops up in memory right after you hit the Post button.

                    1. That’s right down the road from me. Nice looking small campus, fairly expensive, doesn’t take a dime of government money – so they can teach what they want.

                      SJWs have been trying to take them down since they opened. Latest tactic is sexual harassment allegations. (Apparently, they call women, women and men, men, and they recognize that the two are different.) The faculty fights over doctrinal purity don’t appear to be helping things, either.

                  2. I went to Yeshiva U (Women’s Division) while they were still broke, before they committed the idiocy of paying the chancellor an annual salary of $1,000,000.

              2. I used to say “Did your parents let you stay up and watch the moon landing?” which I called the Saint Mary’s exclusionary rule for the old (founded 1847) finishing school whose freshman were juniors in high school. I would have saved a few trips to Alabama if I had stuck to it.

                1. My parents took me out of my crib to watch it. but they think I was asleep in front of the TV when it actually happened.

            3. Those of us raising children with a modicum of sanity viz relations between the sexes need to get together and create a courtship network for our kids. I’m serious. I’m already scoping out the families with sons for my daughter.

              1. Considering how many family and friends have now gotten married to people they met over social media? It’s not a bad idea.

              2. Four sons, bright but not geniuses (thank goodness), reasonably attractive family lines, no crazier than the average Odd (YSWIDT?), quite affectionate, older ones mostly housebroken. Now accepting dowry bids with a 10% deposit. *runs away from the carp and the Oyster Wife, cackling*

      2. “Somewhat more likely is that the men who refuse to be housebroken will either die without offspring or join the disaffected barbarians tearing down the civilized societies.”

        Not all the disaffected join the barbarians. Consider the veterans from the US and other western countries who have traveled across the sea to join Peshmerga or the YPG. Because if you believe in civilisation but no longer see yourself having a place in it, then why not die in its defence on a barbarian sword?
        Most of them do seem likely to die without offspring, I grant, or at best offspring whom they never see, thanks to family court.

        Since this is my first comment here, I suppose I ought to introduce myself (see handle) and say that I found Mrs Hoyt’s blog through John C. Wright’s blog, which I’ve been reading for years. I enjoyed Darkship Thieves, and plan on reading more of her work as time and spending money allow.

        1. Welcome to the Hunnish Horde — mind the elbows, they mostly aren’t intentional.

          There are a few topics which are not to be discussed, but I can’t tell you what they are.

          1. One of them is the American Civil War. It sparks internecine warfare. Lots of blue on blue.

            1. I did NOT want to be the one to mention those. Speak of the Devil, y’know?

              1. Only if you can’t take the smell of fish; most of us just jump in the creek and come back for more.

            2. Sarah, Da Tech Guy did postulate an interesting reply by bakery owners and others that the SJWs couldn’t object to, based on their response to Ms Gellar:

              they MUST bake a cake for their wedding as is their constitutional right. I can picture the baker smiling sweetly and giving, with profound regret, this answer:

              ” You know I understand that while I disagree with what you are doing and it violates my faith you certainly have a right to demand a wedding cake from me and I deeply sympathize. But there are Christians, some of them violent and radical like those who have attacked abortion clinics, who would be quite offended if I did so. I can’t take the risk of provoking such people into violence against either you or me.”

              Goose, gander, sauce.

        2. Welcome to ATH. Here’s your hun card. We’re all huns and hoydens here except for a few of us.

        3. Howdy and welcome! If it gets too baffling, feel free to ask what’s going on, or to look at the FAQ page. And do not feed Fluffy until you check the feeding schedule, no matter what he tells you. Oh, and please return borrowed books on time.

          1. Ah, you don’t have to worry too much about bringing back borrowed books on time. You can always wait for the Library Gorilla to visit you to bring them back.

            Of course, you may consider the bruises and potential fractures as an unreasonably high fee to pay for a one-hour delinquency…

    2. You make the mistake of conducing a small, vocal, minority for society at large. Right now the Liberal Intellectual Radical Progressives still have substantial control of The Message. They still dominate broadcast organizations, TV and Film production venues, and so on. But their control peaked a while ago. They are fighting a rearguard action, and losing, albeit slowly. What will happen is that more and more young men will opt out of the ‘Go to a Liberal Arts College with sterling LIRP credentials and submit to psychological castration” path. The corporate world is, I believe, learning that it can’t trust the graduates of LIRP dominated colleges to be worth their salt. I think this is one of a number of related impulses behind the indignant attacks on “For Profit” colleges; the LIRPs know that a lock on college accreditation is one of the last “Gates” they can reliably hold for any length of time.

      We’ll see. Maybe a lot of young women won’t be able to resist exercising the unreasonable power the LIRPs want to hand them. But I think that what we will see is more and more exposure of the unhinged, like that little idiot who told her “story” to Rolling Stone.

      1. There are a number of competent young men exiting the military and determined to continue their service to the nation. They are skilled at working the system and unlikely to get corrupted by the college experience.

        Women “graduating” from that institution are also less likely to be turned inside out by Academics (having experience with “real men” makes them less easily swayed by the faux.)

        1. And long term, tight quarters exposure to both the users, the thoughtless and the results makes them (well, us…) more likely to recognize the users, too, if we manage to learn how not to keep making the same mistake over and over.

          1. Not I, but somebody ought make a know your enemy style Youtube video series teaching the salient characteristics of Users (Male & Female), SJWs and other cultural quislings.

            The guys at PJM could absolutely nail it, don’t you think? Or make it a contest; I and several thousand others would undoubtedly kick in $5 for prize money.

            1. Different styles of them, at least!

              The problem is, of course, that they function by pretending to be nice.

              *cues up Frodo and Strider* He’d look fairer and feel fouler, y’see?

              (Hm, I still have a bit of a crush on the live action animated Strider, it seems.)

    3. May? What do you think that MGTOW and/or Dr. Helen’s “Marriage Strike” is all about. Worse from women’s point of view is that there is nothing they can individually do about it because due to the laws and courts they are not held to their promises, agreements, and/or contracts. The only thing that will fix this is a massive overhaul of both the law and the court system and that will take at least a generation and possibly two or three.

      1. Obama and the GM bailout broke contract law and it will be hard to ever fix. GM’s assets were specifically obligated to be paid out in a specific order. The Feds stepped in and invalidated that contract for their own purposes. It was a very bad move and basically means any contract you sign is negiotable. Imagine a big flood or tornado causing enough damage to bankrupt the insurance companies. Now the Feds can jump in and say, ‘sorry, you only get 30% of the value of your policy, and oh, all payments are capped at 1/2 million. That all happened under the table, and the compliant media swept it under the rug, but it is there, and will be easier to invoke the second time around.

    4. I don’t know that we will go that far. I had great fun with an aggressively pacifist (yeah, yeah, I know) neighbor, who on seeing my bumper sticker about the USMC defending you, said to me “I don’t think we need protection”. I replied “That’s ok, we will protect you anyway.” “We don’t WANT you to protect us!” “That’s ok, we will protect you anyway.” Sound of liberal head exploding.

  3. This woman is very tired of the war between men and women. I’m tired of being told that you can’t treat people as people but you have to categorize them first and then decide how to treat them. I’m tired of all the nice guys who have been burned and now are too spooked to even have a decent conversation about, oh, special effects in the Avengers with a female-type person. I’m tired of wondering if I should warn teenage guys off of going to certain colleges, or caution them to stay away from most women at college unless they are with a group and stone-cold-sober, just in case. I don’t want to go back to the mythical ’50s (17–, 18–, or 19– for that matter), but I want everyone to start acting like decent humans and to follow the Golden Rule. *steps off soap box, goes back to pulling the rug out from under a protagonist*

    1. Somehow I doubt that Kate “Vote With My Vagina” Harding would cast her ballot for Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachmann or Carly Fiorina.

      Of course, those aren’t real women, they’re “Republicans.” Real women are those obedient to the Matriarchy.

      1. Seriously. If Fiorina were to win the election next year (which I don’t expect, but she’s running so it’s possible), and then be followed by Warren, we’d probably hear over and over how Warren was the first female president.

        And, of course, we’d be told that the only reason Fiorina had won the Republican nomination was because Republicans were engaging in some kind of scheme to hide their sexism by voting for her.

        1. They already have 1/2 the population believing Lincoln was not a Republican, it isn’t a stretch for them to declare Fiorina a man. Where is Geraldine Ferraro when we need her?

          1. And there’s one Progressive Democrat author who stated ‘We won the civil war’. Brilliant author, but apparently forgot everything he ever read in history.

        2. I’m not inclined to vote for Florin, but then I’ve already seen her leadership ability at work at HP

          1. You’ve got a problem with the CEO of the United States drastically cutting the workforce and gutting the employee pensions?????

            1. Zing!

              OK – more like how under her HP counldn’t seem to figure out what business it wants to stay in, how their stuff has been going downhill – though still better than Dell – and how their printers in particular have gone from “must buy – will last 10 years” to crap.

              1. First, you’ll need to reassure me that HP wasn’t unionized at the time…


              2. That still sounds better than Hillary / Obama / Warren / Sanders / anyone else the Democrats would throw up (and I do mean “throw-up” — what a dog’s breakfast that party has become.)

              3. Yep. The printers went from “built like a tank, last forever” to “same flimsy Chinese crap that everyone else was selling for half the price”. You can show a large profit doing that. For a while.

                Once word got around that the HP name was meaningless, people stopped paying HP prices.

                You can run a four star restaurant or you can run McDonald’s. Both are good, honest ways to make a living. What you can’t do, in the long term, is run McDonald’s and charge four star prices.

                MBA school teaches you that only the next couple of quarters count because by the time the chickens come home to roost, you’ll be have failed upward to another company at a higher salary, based on the “increased profits” you made wrecking the first one.

                I’d just as soon that Ms Fiorina’s next upward failure not be as President of the United States…’cause I’m planning on living here for a while.

                1. Some years back someone – I think it was Reason magazine – ran an excellent article on just why “running the country like a business” was boneheaded. There were several points, and I expect I’ve forgotten much of it, but the two that stuck with me are;

                  1) Businesses are run for a profit, not for the benefit of the customers. Running a country for profit is pretty much what the Kings of the middle ages did, and what a mess THAT was.

                  2) The idea of running the Military as a revenue enhancement arm of a business has an especially nasty history.

                  1. Back when I took Accounting for Government, Hospitals & Not For Profits the first thing drilled into our thick heads was the number of differences in intent and in function between business and the non-profit sector.

                    Chief among these was the Accounting operation had a wholly different purpose. In business Accounting exists to assure funds are used efficiently while in Government (and so on) the role of Accounting is to ensure funds are used only for authorized purposes.

                    That said, there are many ways in which government can translate business models of efficiency and approach. For example, the government should decide whether its primary goal in taxation is raising necessary funds for government operations or to address fundamental problems of wealth inequality in the polity. It is only by clear-eyed focusing on the goal that functionality and means can be determined.

                2. Back in the late ’90’s I bought an hp printer and didn’t get around to unboxing it for a couple of years. Took it out and it printed about 3-4 pages then stopped. Took a $65 payment to the hp help line to be told that it wasn’t repairable.
                  Will NEVER waste my money on another hp poc.

              4. … HP couldn’t seem to figure out what business it wants to stay in…

                I’ve already mentioned Clayton Cramer’s opinion of Carly Fiorina, but you just reminded me of what someone else said about HP. This person used to work there, and told me not to buy HP-branded computers — because the printing division was their main line, and the computing division was basically an afterthought thrown in so that people would end up buying more printers.

                No idea if he worked there before Mrs. Fiorina’s tenure or not, but from your description it sounds like his time, when HP knew that it was in the printer business, may have been before her tenure.

                1. Dang I feel my grey hair! I remember when HP was in the calculator business.

                  1. That’s something else Fiorina killed. The division that produced the flagship HP-41 through HP-48 is dead at her hands. The leftovers are a mere vestige…

                  2. It was but my school (Auburn U Montgomery) used TI. I think we used a TI-84 for stats.

                    1. I think we just found another topic for the no-no list. RPN is the only way to fly.

                    2. Real men use HP’s… but then you went to a women’s school, didn’t you?

                      Using TIs instead of HPs, it’s no wonder men were always considered smarter than women.

                    3. Not meanin’ ter quibble, but “co-ed” don’t mean any men attended; it could just be a buncha ladies with outies.

                    4. RPN stands for Reverse Polish Notation. It is a different operator / number ordering scheme than is typically used, but some swear by it. Writing an RPN calculator program has often been an assignment in low-intermediate computer science courses. Some models of physical calculators (including HP, IIRC) implemented RPN.

                    5. Reverse Polish Notation. It’s how you enter data into an HP. Not much difference for short calculations, but in a long problem, it saves significant keystrokes. A little bit of a learning curve, but once you learn, you never want to go back. My 15c has tooth marks from a dog I had before we were married, and our twentieth is coming up.

                    6. Yep, I used a HP 48 long enough, that I can’t input into a normal calculator.

                      My Survey Pro card has went bad for it though, and those are hard to find any more.

                    7. RPN is wonderful for assembly language programming as the calculator runs just like the stack-operation of computer cpus. Familarity with hp calculators leads to efficient programming.
                      For the 1980’s 6502 and Z80 microprocessors that mattered. Nowdays, with gobs of memory and fast machines, portability, maintainability and clarity matter more than efficiency.
                      Also don’t forget HP *used* to be a major supplier of hospital equipment as they were very good with ultra-reliable equipment.

                    8. They still are, technically… alot of in-room monitoring equipment in ICU and critical care units? the big white plastic box on the base? has a HP workstation inside, usually a z400/z420/z440.

                    9. Well, how ’bout that. My daughter is getting an Associates to qualify her to work on medical equipment. Circle of life, I guess.

                2. I don’t know when I bought my printer but it’s an HP Color Laser Jet 1600 . It’s a total workhorse of a machine. My husband has a multifunction machine–fax, scan & print, but my printer is the one we use for printing his boarding passes and other important documents. I think it cost me something like $1500 and it was pretty high end.

                  1. We have a LaserJet 4MP. Built like a tank, runs fine, needs the fuser cleaned…

              5. My HP photosmart 8750 is a great printer, but getting old and long in the tooth (whatever that means). So, off I go to the HP Store looking for a replacement… I now have a Cannon Pixma Pro-1. Any more questions about HP printers?

          2. I remember Clayton Cramer commenting negatively on her leadership skills when she ran for Senate. He, too, worked at HP under her tenure, and as I recall he informed his readership that this woman does not know how to run a business all that well.

            I’ve drifted away from reading his blog any longer, so I’ll have to go hunting for the article in question. But the impression he gave me of her leadership skills was that she was below average as a CEO. Not truly terrible, but less than good.

            1. Found one post of his, at least:


              Key quote: “I still think there is a chance that Boxer (who they now class as a Leans Democratic seat) could go to Fiorina, but I suppose that depends what percentage of California voters this time around are U.S. citizens.

              Let me emphasize: Carly Fiorina can’t even fake a caring, decent human being. I hold her in considerable disgust for how she ran HP when I worked there. Please, if you live in California, vote for Empress Carly the First. It’s that important.”

              1. She’d still probably be a better president than Obama… as long as she didn’t outsource our military to China.

                1. A better president than Obama? That’s practically the ur-example of damning with faint praise, right there.

                  1. Does anyone here think an actual honest-to-gawd empty suit wouldn’t have done less harm to this country since January 20, 2008?

                    I’m not talking a nice chalk-stripe charcoal three-button number, either; I mean a bad plaid Herb Tarlicker of a suit.

                    1. Doesn’t live up to his namesake? Too bad. 🙂

                      I still want a Vetinari/Vimes 2016 sticker for my car. Alas, there is no way to make it come true…

          3. I’ll have to check her dates at HP. As badly as they lied to their contractors when Husband was one, I’m pretty suspicious of anyone from there. (The two biggest lies: we’ll hire you directly after a few months, and you can work from home except for when you need to do physical work on the servers.)
            This is shaping up to be another of these elections, isn’t it? I’d like to be able to vote for someone, rather than against.

      2. And the Matriarchy is obedient to the REAL Patriarchy, the LIRP, elite college educated, smooth lying bastards like Bill Clinton. I have little enough respect for the Feministas, but even that tiny morsel took a hit when they rushed to defend that smarmy bastard.

        But it fits. The LIRPs are always ready to accuse others of doing what they do routinely. There IS a Patriarchy, and they are it.

    2. Stop it! We know you’re just trying to win the Greatest Lady in Texas 2015 award. As if last year’s wasn’t enough! 🙂

      Seriously, though, you are absolutely right. And it is going to create the monster that they so fear – at some point those “nice guys” are going to realize that there is zero incentive for them to be “nice guys” and will become the thing the feminists are so scared of. It goes back to Sun Tzu’s Art of War – always leave your enemy an out. If their back is against the wall and escape is not possible, your enemy will fight to the death since he has nothing to lose. The feminists are backing us into a corner and trying to block all of our escape routes. This will not end well.

      1. No, some of us will hold the line, because we believe it is our duty. We also know women who are not crazy feminists, and know that there are some very deep and dark places on the right of the Internet.

        1. Yes, there will always be those of us that stand and fight, but, the majority? I doubt it. If you tell a lie long enough, fast enough, and loud enough, people will begin to believe the lie and not what they know or saw or believe. Look at it another way, if you beat a pit bull enough, do you get a docile pit bull or one that wants to rip everyone’s throat out? The feminists are trying to train their dog by beating it.

          1. What makes you think the loud idiot users are the majority?

            They’re going to be most of the “relationship” market, sure, because they either never leave or they keep coming back.

            But you’ve got those who do manage to marry happily, and then there’s the wounded that aren’t turned (and might be back in the market because they were hit by a user), and the ones who are just short sighted. (like those who have no problem using people for a decade, ignore those who aren’t “hot” enough, keep looking in known bad places, and can’t find anyone)

            1. When you own both the media and the education system you don’t really need a majority to set the agenda.
              The saving grace, caused in part simply by their doubling down on their impossibly inhuman narrative, and the cracks that are growing in their once solid front, that brought out by our efforts amongst others, in the end we will win, but t’ain’t gonna be pretty in the doing. The worse they fail the nastier they get, or so history tells those of us who actually read it and learn from it.

              1. (Nods) For those familiar with the run-up to the ACW, the signs are worrisome. Often overlooked in the history is the fact that proslavery advocates were very vocal in large parts of the North before and even during the war.
                In the South, a man spoke against even expanding slavery in peril of his life. The parallels to the current situation should be apparent.

                1. The Southerners were fighting for slavery. They were fighting to keep their own ways. Slave owners were a minority of Southerners.

                  1. Yes, but the point is that there are large sections of the country where dissent from the prevailing social ideology is considered cause to ruin your life, destroy your institution, and generally make you extremely unwelcome.

              2. When you own both the media and the education system you don’t really need a majority to set the agenda.

                Short term, no.

                *points at kids* Look what we have, which they do not, and who they are not getting.

                Kids are hope, and a future. Their world view selects against them, and the cracks you point to make it so that the residual trust they depend on for that ownership is not as effective.

                Yeah, it’ll be nasty, but it’s already nasty– the nasty will just be in the open. Hopefully. At least more in the open.

                1. Some of us who don’t have their own kids are still pro-kid and serve willingly as aunts and uncles.

                  1. A culture can’t stand without support– and you’re important to avoid the “you just say that because you don’t want to deal with it in your kids” attack.

    3. Actually, I started writing an off-the-wall romance set at a fictitious US college that touches on some of these themes. (This is my first-ever fiction writing project — I am rather more experienced at nonfiction — so don’t expect great finesse. But if you’re masochistic enough to be an alpha reader, drop me a message at ancienbelge at gmail dot com.)

      1. Have you ever seen the movie _P.C. U_? The first 10-15 minutes are the best, IMHO, and pretty much sum up the bizzarity of campus politics. And it was supposed to be satire.

  4. “I find it hilarious that in their minds men/boys are so powerful that they must be kept back and are suspected of being criminals just because they have a penis. This is attributing them god-like powers to rival what any Victorian housewife would believe.”

    Kameron Hurley’s anti-Puppy/anti-GamerGate story is a perfect example. She believes that there’s only 300 GGs, but also that they could somehow dominate society completely. How? Magic, I guess. Penis power.

    1. No. Projection. The SJWs–the hardcore ones, anyway–know how few they really are, but see how much they control despite that.
      Thus they apply the same theories to their opponents.

    2. Only 300?

      I think that many people showed up for the gathering in DC that got the bomb scare. Apparently all the GG people live in the DC area?


      1. Logic is never the SJW’s strong suit.
        My SJW sister in Seattle has informed me that the only reason Republicans don’t want to pay more taxes is that we don’t want our money going to “help poor brown people”.

        When I told her that a) that was an incredibly racist thing to say and b) I’d never heard a Republican say anything like that she responded that of course they didn’t say it out loud, that’s just what they really think. Not that she could give me anything to show why she knew that was how Republicans think. But she didn’t need to prove it. Everyone who counts knows it and that’s all that matters. Or something.

        I’m just pissed that I never got my decoder ring so I can figure out what I’m supposed to believe about things just because someone in the alleged hierarchy tells me too.

          1. I could so see Larry creating one of these. Would have to figure out how to make it always have a decoded message of, “Buy Larry’s latest book!”

        1. I was told I don’t like the dinosaur abomination because I identify with the aggressors, instead of “because it’s a facile word game with zero research that maligns an entire class of people” — i.e. people in “rough” bars, or iow the American working class.
          It’s amazing it NEVER occurs to them that they’re practicing thought-reading on people and telling people they know better than people themselves what they think.
          I don’t like high taxation because I write a book a year for the feds. And that on top of what my husband pays. Which in turn means a house or car repair can put us in the red and not knowing where the next meal comes from. EVERY time we itemize our expenses, the highest is taxes. (Yeah, we make just enough to be in the next higher bracket every year. My income is hard to track.) This should not be a thing.

          1. One – The SJWs do not suffer from false consciousness and do not delude themselves about motives

            Two – The SJWs do not rely on corrupt and fallible tools of the Patriarcy for their knowledge.

            Three – Because they are in tune with the deeper resonances of the Universe they are able to “know” by intuition rather than needing evidence or reasoning (see prior statement.)

            Four – Conservatives reason backwards, which is why they are blind to these self-evident axioms. If they would learn to reason from correct axioms they would not delude themselves so baldly.

            Five – Conservatives adhere to false doctrines (i.e., Loyalty/Betrayal, Authority/Subversion and Sanctity/Degradation) that prevent them from intuiting correct thought.

            Remember, Government is good because it gives you things. Government can only give you things by taking things from people who are greedy and trying to keep more than their fair share.

            Also, You can’t spell Conservative without racist. To understand a conservative’s motives always start from there.

            1. Hm. I think I’ll stick with my general observation that SJWs are full of crap.

          2. The task of the writer is to ‘force’ the reader to identify with the protagionist. Their admission that you identified with the agressors is an indication of *their* failure, not yours.
            Really, how the h*ll do they think they can run the world if they can’t convince you, at least while reading, to adopt the correct point of view? (rhetorical ?… we know the answer; ‘racist’,’h8er’,’sexist’,’SHUT UP!’.)

        2. Did you point out that for all those leftists that want to pay more taxes there are already programs in place to allow to do that? I haven’t heard of hardly anyone utilizing those programs though.

          1. I think someone in OK or AR advertised that once. They received a whole $10 in that account that year.

          2. The only person that I know of who voluntarily paid more taxes than were owed was Mitt Romney in 2012.

      2. It’s standard leftist tactics. Their enemies are minorities, you see. 😉

    1. Instapundit is of the opinion that the moment a functional and affordable sex android hits the market, most men are going to quit chasing women (both for courting, and for one night flings). The progress toward more realistic (but not necessarily sex-related) androids is one of the things that he sometimes tracks on his blog.

        1. Given how difficult it is to ban just about anything related to “adult entertainment”…

          1. It will be easy when the entertainment equipment is too complicated to make at home.

    2. The fact is that women these days want to have it both ways and don’t understand that men aren’t stupid enough to not see what a raw deal it is for men.

      Ever consider that, just maybe, believing the user b******s when they claim to speak for all women is a really bad idea?

      I get really tired of being told to shut up when I do object, and then told that I didn’t object enough when I point out that no, “women” don’t think any such thing.
      There are several women here who were single, and lady-like, and have gotten the “there are no available women who aren’t evil” complaint.

      Much more supportable is to point out that a lot of males want to have it both ways, both able to have no-commitment (or consequence) sex before marriage and to be able to turn that commitment back on when they want loyalty in the relationship. You think marriage is a bad deal for men, better look at the whole picture– I know a lot more women who were used as glorified sex dolls than men who got victimized by life mates, and for that matter I know several males who feel they were victims because their live-in got tired of waiting after a decade of being his “fiance.”

      Or we can stop buying into the “blame an entire sex for the cads and b****s bull and try to actually fix problems where we can reach them, fight the lies that are eating people alive. A lot of the protections society offered were torn away– we need to deal with it, not complain about someone else not magically fixing the ability of bad actors to be bad actors.

      All things considered, the hand we’ve been dealt isn’t as bad as it could be, and we should deal with it instead of trying to whine about the other half of the species being somehow to blame.

      1. (Nods) Part of the issue here is that most of the data that’s being used is anecdotal, at some level or another.
        For example, swing by an MRA site and you’ll run into a succession of horror stories about abusive spouses who gamed the system, biased courts, biased bosses, etc.
        Swing by a radfem site, and you’ll get the same, only genderflipped.
        Both will involve a certain number of entitled queen bees whose sole complaint is that the world does not conform precisely to their expectations, while including a certain number of others who have a legitimate grievance against the system and may or may not have drunk deep of the draught of bitterness. The question is how to separate the wheat from the chaff–very difficult to do online–and figure relative frequency.

        1. The main standard I’ve seen is that good people who are trying to do the right thing tend to get screwed over by the users. What do you know, users tend to be good at gaming systems, especially if they can spin a narrative where they’re “good” without having to actually be good.

          1. Which is okay, to a certain extent, so long as the users remain a fairly small minority. The good people (and even the so-so people) quickly learn to figure out who the users are, and greet their protestations of innocence with a roll of the eyes, or something similar.

            The problem arises when the users become numerous enough to start influencing things their way. They can warp the rules of society itself in order to aid them. And newcomers, who haven’t been around long enough to realize what sort of people the users are, come to believe the propaganda.

            1. The good people (and even the so-so people) quickly learn to figure out who the users are, and greet their protestations of innocence with a roll of the eyes, or something similar.

              Only if they’re given a chance to get enough information.

              Why do you think the emotional argument style is so dang popular, and I get so dang tired of just flipping the arguments around?
              (Besides the annoyance at being blamed for Bad Things that college activists did before I was born. I’ve never been anything but polite when someone holds a door open for me, or even seen someone be more rude than totally ignoring the person doing it, but I’ve been yelled at for other women who are probably grandmothers by now having been rude when someone was nice enough to hold open a door.)

              1. Only if they’re given a chance to get enough information.

                So long as the number of problem people remain small enough, then this isn’t an issue.

                There’s also one more issue that I forgot to mention. There’s always a subset of people who are inclined to go with the flow. They’re honest just so long as they think the majority of people around them are being honest. The more “users” you have, the more inclined the “go with the flow” people are to imitate them. That means that the number of “users” ends up snowballing.

                1. So long as the number of problem people remain small enough, then this isn’t an issue.

                  Good argument for subsidiarity, although that has the sister issue of inaccurately identifying users.

      2. Every time a woman says “I’m not like that” and it turns out that she is the lesson is driven home to not trust ANY woman to not be like that. The problem is that family courts side with the dishonest and the non-producers (to better extract $$ from the producers) so the risks of trusting anyone are just too high. This sucks and if you are not one of the users it sucks unjustly. Unfortunately, there is money to be had from the current set-up and a chunk of that money is spent on ensuring that it does not change. (Another case of regulatory capture?)

        1. Every time a woman says “I’m not like that” and it turns out that she is the lesson is driven home to not trust ANY woman to not be like that.

          Like the love-and-leave guys don’t?

          The problem is that family courts side with the dishonest and the non-producers (to better extract $$ from the producers) so the risks of trusting anyone are just too high.

          Might be able to be hammered into function, but unlikely– it’s just another system being exploited by users. Trying to make it male and female, or “producers” (especially when defining that is circular, because users can exploit multiple systems, and some of them produce money)is playing to their game.
          Shouldn’t do that. They’re liars, and they set up the field to favor their goals.

      3. “There are several women here who were single, and lady-like, ”

        But I thought all those around here were Hoydens?

        1. Are you trying to tell us we ain’t lady-like? looks down the edge of her sword, to be sure it’s sharp enough

          1. There is lady-like and there’s LADY-LIKE. Even Tom-Boys can be LADY-LIKE. [Smile]

      4. It’s not a matter of whether they speak for “all women”. It’s, to give one example, were I to decide to get into a sexual relationship, one time fling, long term, whatever with a woman I’m gambling that my “read” that she won’t decide after the fact to decide that she didn’t really consent and, boom, my life is ruined.

        And, no, “wait until you’re married” is not a “solution” as anyone whose ever been on the sidelines of a bitter divorce (let alone involved in one) can attest, particularly when you add in that “marital rape” is a thing.

        Not all women? I would hope not. But how certain am I that this woman won’t react like that.

        It’s a gamble. And recent trends are to raise the “risk” side of the “risk/reward” balance of that gamble very high indeed.

        This cannot be a healthy thing.

        1. This cannot be a healthy thing.

          No, but it is a totally predictable see-saw when caddishness gets mainstreamed; the only shock is that it took so long for the more naturally female aspects of being a cad to explode after the using-people-for-physical-satisfaction aspect got big.

          Possibly it took so long because the “free love” practitioners was actually relatively small, so it took a couple of generations for the effects to build.

    3. First: Not All Women
      Second: Enough Women
      Third: Any Woman Might
      Expansion: any woman, no matter how warm, loving, cuddly and sweet might (like a semi-feral cat) suddenly claw a man to ribbons. Many reasons for this and sure, most won’t — but enough will suddenly decide that the man they’re with is no longer what they want/deserve and should be punished for failing her.
      Fourth: Any Man Might
      Explanation: see above explanation, reverse genders

      Conclusion #1: People have a horrible tendency, even when moderated by strong social factors, to want their partners to be what they want them to be, rather than what they are. This condition is exacerbated when Society seems to offer multiple and contradictory standards for what people should want to be.

      Conclusion #2: Humans be all effed up. Accept it with as much grace as possible.

      1. If you only paid attention to the media:
        Whores on the left, rapists on the right.

        Everyone else gets colored by the same crayons as those two until otherwise proven differently.

      2. I think a screwed up view of marriage/long term relationships contributes to the problem as well. I can’t tell you how many people–alleged adults–I have spoken to over the years who are dead convinced that such a relationship must be all-happy, all-the-time. It’s the ‘happily ever after’ fallacy. (Like the girls I knew in college who were convinced that just as soon as they got married, all their problems would be over. Knew more than a few guys with that view, too.) My mother actually had a psychologist (seeing him on account of some of the adopted sibs, long story) advise her to get a divorce from my father (and that she should be on Prozac), because when the psychologist asked her what her view of marriage was, her response was “I love it, but it takes a lot of hard work, and some days you don’t like your spouse much, but that’s what the work is for, to get past those days.” He was horrified, and assured her that she was completely wrong, and that marriage was supposed to be fun! She asked him how many times he’d been married. “Four,” was the response, at which point she laughed in his face and walked out…

        1. She asked him how many times he’d been married. “Four,” was the response, at which point she laughed in his face and walked out…

          *Stands and applauds your mother*

  5. I don’t think that men necessarily become aggressive when they’re unhappy, it’s just that when we go into problem solving mode: “Plan A. That didn’t work, let’s try plan B. Nope, plan C….” You don’t have to get very far down the alphabet before you get to “Hit it with a stick.” There are very few problems that cannot be solved by hitting them sufficiently hard with a stick. Unfortunately, women problems in modern society is one of those. Pre-modern society, on the other hand…

    1. Sigh. I do the same decision tree, only “hit it hard enough with nearest object” is always plan B. I usually control it, but it’s still plan b.

      1. Hmmm…for me it normally goes, “Plan B. Nope, still don’t have a way to get to orbit or get out of the blast zone in time. Sigh. Where the hell is my flying car? Plan C…”

      2. I can’t find the link to it, but I remember a bit of dialogue from Sluggy Freelance that went something like:

        “If direct application of explosives is always Plan C, what’s Plan B?”

        “Indirect application of explosives.”

        1. No no no. Indirect application is plan B. Direct plan C. Less chance of being within the minimum safe distance at detonation with indirect application.

      3. Aha! Yet another detail furthering the speculation that you really are a gay man trapped in a female body.

            1. That’s pretty much what I meant. It went from being a jocular way of saying “I’m a straight male” to an off-the-wall form of gender dysphoria.

          1. I have a good friend who has said he was a lesbian trapped in a male body. He had male lovers for ages, then married a lesbian radical feminist, who once she had the children she was after dumped him and is now dragging him through divorce hell. Even though he has all kinds of non-binary points, he’s still an evil male, and hence has to be made to pay.

      4. You do not suffer the delusion of many guys who think that all problems with gals can be resolved by hitting them with the right “stick” in just the right way.

        Although I am told that for many, male and female, this can resolve a wide range of difficulties.

    2. “The noblest of sentiments can be refuted if their bearer is beaten to death with a rubber truncheon.” Hermann Goering

      I presume the goal is to rehabilitate Goering and make his sentiments trump the “you never hit a girl. No, it doesn’t matter if she hit you first. She’s a girl.” that all boys used to learn from age three on.

        1. Actually, in skilled hands it can leave rather spectacular technicolor bruises. It can also break bones if applied with real enthusiasm.

    3. I read an article a while back that the aggression center in the brain of junior-high-aged boys develops faster than the rest of the brain. I think some of this rubs off and shapes the rest of our lives.

    4. Look at the incidence of teen/young suicide as a good indicator of how unhappy young males are.
      Admittedly, this is anecdotal; however, my best friend’s 22 year old son had been co-habitating for over a year. Two months after the breakup, he saw her new boyfriend on her facebook page and shot himself dead. She apparently blamed his excessive video game playing as part of the problem. He had been saving his money (and was full time employed) for an engagement ring. A bad situation. I certainly don’t blame his young lady friend, from my experiences with her before this happened, she seemed nice and had not drank any of the SJW kool-aid. She was studying to be a nurse. She is devastated, his Mother is devastated, the rest of the families are trying to pick up the pieces, but this was over a year ago and things are hardly normal. I would have loved to hear his take on GamerGate. We are doing something wrong people. I don’t know what it will take to fix it.

      1. Young men have always had a significantly higher suicide rate, because male privilege. It doesn’t look like that has substantially changed over the years. In 1950 is was 21.2 per 100,000 for all men, in 2010 it was 19.8.

        1. Don’t remember the lady’s name, but there’s a lesbian who decided to “live as a man” for a year.

          Two things.

          One – she had to give up after several months, it was damaging her sanity.

          Two – she realized that contrary to the “male privilege” narrative, men far from had it easy, both in dealing with the world and criticism, but even more so in dealing with women.

          1. If you find the citation for her article or book, please post it. It should be well worth the read.

            1. Consider her upbringing and education. Being constantly told you’re an oppressed victim tends to make you remarkably disinclined to attend to information about the oppressors. Look at the way some American men react to assurances that #NotAllWomen are seeking to abuse and exploit men.

            2. Never read it, but possibly the fact that she was a lesbian was the reason she didn’t know those things about men. Normal women are interested in men, and people tend to study things and notice things about what they are interested in. And if they want the men to be interested in them, women tend to find out what the men are interested in, so that they can figure out how to attract them. As a lesbian it is possible that she never learned much about men because she was neither interested in them, or interested in learning how to attract and hold their attention.

              1. Reading the description, it’s likely that a lot of the things she didn’t know about men was less because she was a lesbian, and more because she was a feminist. It mentions her learning of the suspicion and attitudes of many women towards men:

                She also found women to be distrustful, ever ready to criticize men for being emotionally distant yet clearly preferring men who met stereotypical images of strength and virility.

                Yeah, most of the women here know about those things (they’ve certainly been talked about enough here), but a whole lot of women don’t realize these things.

    5. I’ve got a button somewhere that says, “There are very few personal problems that cannot be solved by a suitable application of high explosives.”

      I will grudgingly admit that, sometimes, expletives are more appropriate.

      1. Off topic but you know, that “why buy the cow” old saw works the other way quite well. After all, who buys a milk cow for personal use (dairy farms are a whole other ballgame) without having sampled the milk or, for that matter, not having enough experience with milk in general to know good milk from bad. Maybe somebody desperate enough to buy any cow available so as to feed a recently orphaned infant with neither formula nor wet nurse available.

        Most people who buy cows for milk (again, commercial farming which would be a different metaphor, excluded) are people quite familiar with drinking and liking milk.

        1. Generally people get a milk cow by raising her from a calf. Probable quality is figured by looking at the ancestry on both sides. Generally, they “buy” it by raising it all on their own, from cows that they not only know the quality of the milk for, but can consider the yield, personality and mothering habits.

          If someone is a hobbyist just starting out, they might buy a bred-up dairy cow, but it’s rather expensive for trying out a hobby that you’re not absolutely sure you want to keep with, and that’s assuming everything goes right.

          You’re not going to get a high quality dairy cow that is producing unless you’ve got a very special in with someone who’s in a commercial-level dairy, and you’re definitely not going to be shopping around with free samples, much less getting to skim the cream. Anybody that is giving it away free is getting paid some other way, more than they could make from selling the cows or the milk otherwise.

          Even if you did manage to find someone who would sell you a cow that’s currently producing and let you sample the milk of their herd until you found one you liked, there’s no assurance that she’d manage the same production next year, and she will dry up. For that matter, radically changing the cow’s situation has a good chance of either souring the production or drying her up.

        2. “After all, who buys a milk cow for personal use (dairy farms are a whole other ballgame) without having sampled the milk”

          Huh? Who the heck samples the milk before buying the cow? Anybody selling the cow would think anyone asking to do so was a)bughouse nucking futs b) didn’t know a dad-blasted thing about milk cows or c) was joking.

          I very much doubt you could find one seller in a hundred who would be willing to give you a free sample.

          1. Who the heck samples the milk before buying the cow?

            Actually, I have seen exactly that. Mind you it wasn’t a Holstein which are practically a commodity but one of the less common breeds where the milk could be quite different (in fat content and so forth) from what you buy in the store and, indeed, quite different from cow to cow.

            Even if you leave aside the sampling of the particular cow (on the basis that the milk from one cow is the milk from another is the milk from yet another), the main point remains that no one buys a milk cow for personal use (leaving aside commercial operations which is probably not the metaphor you would like to go for with this) without having actually tasted milk.

            I’m going to gamble on buying a cow if I don’t even know if I like milk? (Yes, people tell me how great milk is but people told me how great natto was too and I think natto may be a massive prank that the Japanese play on other nations.) I don’t think so.

            But, back to the original supposed point of the metaphor, yeah, I’m not going to buy a cow if milk is cheap since getting milk is the only reason to have that milk cow. However, as a metaphor, if sex (the “milk”) is the only reason, or even the primary reason for getting married (“buy the cow”) then you’ve got far more serious problems in that line than how cheap the milk might be.

            And, so, I still contend that it’s a stupid metaphor.

            1. And, so, I still contend that it’s a stupid metaphor.

              It is, because it’s taking a socially acceptable allusion to immediate cost/benefit models and make it a full blooded metaphor.

              Making an even worse metaphor that is, additionally, false….

              1. that is, additionally, false

                Since I have actually seen the very thing you called false, I question your assertion of it being false.

                Can you name three people who have bought a milk cow for personal use without having at least tried milk before? That’s an awfully big investment for something you may not even like–or might be unable to drink anyway (it appears, for instance, that my daughter is lactose intolerant).

                If one wants to argue against promiscuous sex, or premarital sex or whatever, that’s fine. There are arguments in favor of those positions.* This “why buy a cow” isn’t one of them. Call it a “socially acceptable allusion to immediate cost/benefit models” or not it’s still weak at best, and that’s giving a lot of benefit to “at best.”

                And, no, I’m not trying to justify anything personal (just in case the thought arises) by disputing that particular argument. I have been monogamous since my marriage and wasn’t actually overflowing with partners before that.

                *Back when I was still active in the religion in which I grew up, there were a number of people who explained why they had not even kissed their prospective spouses before their marriage. While I don’t agree with their arguments in general, certainly not as a generally applied rule, they appear to have been the right choices for them. Yet another reason why I am very much against any “one size fits all” approach.

                1. Since I have actually seen the very thing you called false, I question your assertion of it being false.

                  You admitted yourself that the situation you’d seen it in was not just “no-commercial,” but an incredibly unusual instance where the breed was not only not standard, but was known to have output that varied wildly between animals.

                  That has no relation to what is normal for acquiring a milk cow for personal use, which you repeatedly and explicitly set as a basis.

              2. pinches sides of nose. Inclines head. Closes eyes. Are you guys really fighting over a cow metaphor?
                I warn you if I have to put cows on the forbidden list it will go hard with you.

                1. I wholeheartedly agree! Imagine, quarreling over cow metaphors when the real problem is cow farts!!!!!!!

                  This lack of focus on the true problem simply stinks to high heaven.

                2. see what happens when someone absconds with the carp-a-pault? And you seem to have misplaced the carp cannon too …. aren’t moves grand?

                3. Can I say “don’t have a cow Sarah”? [Very Big Grin While Flying Away Very Fast]

                4. Popcorn?

                  I once used a bear metaphor (in which the bear might not exist) and triggered a long and furious thread about whether there was a bear.

                  1. Gasp!!!! You actually crossed the line to write about Schroedinger’s Bear?????

                    You transgressive vixen, you.

                  1. Nonsense — if you don’t use a cow level, how can you be sure you’ve got all four legs the proper length? That bubble needs to be dead plumb center or your milk comes out slanted!

        3. And, of course, there was the time this friend of mine found glitter in a milk bottle and simply had to look up the dairy farm to buy that particular cow…

  6. The tide may already be turning. Why are so many young males spending all their time gaming? It *used* to be the only safe place they had to go. (Backs against the wall, the gamers have not stood quietly by and watch the destruction.) Colleges already have 3 women for every 2 men, yet the feminist want more. STEM isn’t a field with patriarchal oppression of women, but it does require *math*, and ‘feeling good’ about your answer will not cut it.
    JC’s links are at least the real side of problem. A few years ago it was all ‘failure to launch’, ‘man up’, ‘chivalry is dead’. Kind of hard for the feminists to complain about the last one when Insty will immediately reply, “Yes, and you killed it.”

    My modest proposal is for all the young men getting false rape charges to sue, and sue for a lot. Then pool all your money into commercial space ventures. When and if we survive as a civilization that long, the current social situation will make asteroid mining a dream occupation. Away from all the whiny feminists, your ship, your VR equipment and your fleshlight… what more could a man ask for? Women will, of course, be welcome to participate and for them, if they survive the conditions for a year, they either were not feminists or they have had all the silliness drummed out of them. Likewise, no degree required, if you can live on an asteroid, you have proven your qualification. Final good point. The belt is close enough to still reap some of the benefits of civilization, but until FTL communication is discovered, it will be a wondrous few hours between them and the rage storms flying across the Internet. By the time they receive and transmit a response, it will be another news cycle and another rage of the moment.

    1. STEM isn’t a field with patriarchal oppression of women, but it does require *math*, and ‘feeling good’ about your answer will not cut it.

      Unfortunately, STEM is *also* a field that’s filled with companies that are firing their US workers, and bringing in H1B “almost slave” labor employees.

      1. And many of those companies are in for a rude awakening once they discover what such practices do to their internal structure, their efficiency, their productivity, especially their innovation, and ultimately their long term sustainability.

        1. Two issues –

          1.) It’s so wide-spread in some industries (Silicon Valley, for instance) that there’s no need to worry about the competition overtaking companies that use it. Those competitors are doing it, too.
          2.) There’s always a delay before those effects kick in. So it’s very bad for the short term. And it discourages people from getting STEM degrees. Why get a difficult degree if you have no chance of getting a job in that field after you graduate?

      2. H1B is another issue entirely. But ‘gender friendly STEM’ is not going to help solve that problem. The light of publicity on the firms might work. Roaches hate light.

        1. Trying to remember where I first saw it, but the quote “If anyone CAN be discouraged from becoming an engineer, they SHOULD be!” comes to mind.

          I believe it was in response to sensitivity to criticism causing people to quit.

          1. yep. Sensitivity and Engineering seem to be mutually exclusive. Now, I have worked with female engineers, and they are probably more sensitive than their male counterparts, but less so that females in other fields.

        2. I nearly cancelled a Disney vacation over their recent H1B stunt. I *DID* cancel applying for a job with them. And, yes, their loss.

      1. Not to mention Disney. The Mouse recently replaced half their IT staff with H-1B imports in a major “restructuring.”
        I put restructuring in quotes as apparently those being let go were required to train their Indian national replacements in order to get a half way decent severance package.

        1. I understand they needed a new Mickey Mouse intro film for one of their park rides a few years back. They had to subcontract out to an Australian animation company, because they had already fired all their ‘classic’ animation artists in this country.

          1. That’s not a surprise. IIRC, the last movie Disney did that didn’t rely heavily on computers was Mulan. Even the more recent films that look like old-style animation are heavily dependent on computers. And the trend these days is for Pixar-style obvious CGI.

    2. Have you been reading Venus Is A Man’s World?

      William Tenn has not only been there and colonized that, he’s sent back reports.

  7. It’s interesting that you mention becoming a mother of boys as adjusting your mind set. I had the same experience having and raising my son. I was never a really hard-core feminist but I passively accepted the “commonly known truths” about men and women we have in our culture, such as how men are “big babies” when they are sick, or how much easier it is to be male vs being female, and all that stuff that comes out of sit coms and ads. I started raising my boy which coincided with my becoming active on the internet, and it started to dawn on me that, hey, I actually like men, my best friend is a man, my husband and son are men, why am I just nodding along to all this stuff like some kind of bobbing drinking bird? One of those “scales falling from the eyes” moments for sure.

    So now I am stomping around screaming, trying to get people to think just a bit critically about these myths they transmit (yeah, I know, screaming is soooper effective and rational!) but they just reply with “everyone knows…” and there’s no debate about it.

    If I see one more mewling “poster” on Friendface about how boys must treat their girlfriends like goddesses without acknowledging that boys need to be treated humanely too I’m gonna toss the laptop at someone. Which would be bad because at this point my handwriting really sucks and typing is all I got 😦

    1. Aah, madame Dragon, might I suggest a little breathing of fire on the stoopid people? Screaming and stomping is good cardio, but fire on the other hand… Plus they’re crispy when you get around to eating dinner.

      1. You make a good point. I could ask them to hold onto a “bouquet” that happens to be rosemary, thyme, and perhaps a bit of sage. But how do I get them to rub a stick of butter all over their skin?

      1. To me the main determiner of whether a woman or a man is a “baby” or an adult is if they recognize their personal agency and are willing to accept the consequences of their actions. (‘Liberty’ vs. ‘license’ if you wish.)
        I am currently writing a geekish romance novel — basically a professor-student romance turned upside down and inside out — where this is a central theme. [SPOILER ALERT] The female protagonist is a girl who grew up in poverty in a broken home but made it to college through her unusual musical talent — and becomes an instructor. One of her pupils is an engineering professor who wants to reconnect with his musical avocations in his newly found spare time: his wife left him to ‘find herself’ with the main benefactor of her music ensemble. My protagonists bond over many things (music, emotional scars from their youth, family skeletons in closets,…) and a romance develops, with the guy deliberately letting her be in the driver’s seat. Then the ex-wife suddenly reclaims her husband, is disappointed that he has moved on after five years of separation, and she starts stirring the pot leading to a harassment proceeding that quickly spins out of control as various parties, each with their own axes to grind, get into the fray. Only the willingness of my protagonists (and, belatedly, the ex-wife) to take complete ownership of their own actions makes it possible for sanity to prevail in the end. [/SPOILER OFF]
        Disclaimer: this isn’t a “roman à clef” of any sort, but just something I got inspired to write by some things I read here and elsewhere, and is set in an environment with which I am intimately familiar.
        And no, I’m emphatically not a closet Harlequin groupie 🙂 but precisely because I have no ‘role models’ that I can crib from there’s a ghost of a chance this might turn out somewhat original. So far one installment is done in rough draft, another half written from a complete extended synopsis.

        1. Maybe you aren’t a Harlequin groupie, on the other hand Lazer Books who published Pournelle’s “West of Honor” was a Harequin imprint. You would be amazed how many they have.

          1. While I enjoyed “West Of Honor”, in general, I found Lazer Books products not too satisfying.


        2. You know what? Romance-only novels aren’t normally my cup of tea (science-fiction with romance, à la Bujold or Asaro, OTOH, I enjoy quite a bit), but I think I’d really like to read your book when it comes out. I don’t know that I’d make a good beta reader as I’m not familiar enough with the genre to know its conventions, but when you put it up for sale on Amazon (you are self-publishing it, right?), let me know. Maybe comment here, maybe shoot me an email at (my first name) dot (my last name), at Gmail. I’ll probably buy it and give a review. The review WILL be honest no matter what, of course — and if the book ends up like the synopsis you just posted, it’ll likely be positive.

          1. Thanks Robin. I’m not really thinking/hoping to make money out of this so I might even release it under a CC license. I’m probably half a dozen such projects away from something worth selling. I’m a ‘virgin’ at fiction writing (started because of crippling nonfiction writer’s block). BTW, I’ve always loved Bujold’s Vorkosigan Saga.

            1. You need to finish and self-publish, you need to charge at least $2.99, and you need to take advantage of Amazon distribution power.

              This is what we were yelling at Knighton a few months back, and now he is making money and having fun!

                  1. ??? I had thought the Oyster had earned enough extra credit to at least squeak by with a D- ?

              1. Thanks for the encouragement, but I’m sure Knighton didn’t put his very first effort up for sale. What do you think about “snippeting” or whatever the latest term is for publication in installments on a personal blog?

                  1. Fine, that is what I will do then. Only two people and a dog know about my dormant blog anyway, so it might be a good staging post. May I take the liberty to post a link in the then-current thread when the first installment will be up?

                    1. The first ten chapters of “When the heart rules the mind” are now online at The password for all pages is our esteemed bloghost’s last name (4 letters, properly capitalized). Comments, suggestions, ideas, hate mail,… welcome here, on the individual chapter pages, or by Email to ancienbelge AT gmail DOT com

        3. Sounds like a good read! And I love that the resolution comes of people accepting responsibility for their actions. Ownership of responsibility–or rather, the lack of it–is I think one of the major underlying problems at the moment. It’s always someone else’s fault (The Patriarchy, the rich folks, etc)

          1. I love that the resolution comes of people accepting responsibility for their actions …

            Are you insane woman??!!!! What would become of this country if so radical a concept was promoted in books, film, television and actually caught on??? If people started accepting responsibility for their lives the next step would be to demand such accountability of others: teachers, schools, elected officials, bureaucrats, ministers and priests!

            What you are calling for is the end of civilization as we have known it, and nobody has any idea what might follow. That fire is too dangerous to be brought down from the heavens.

    2. Don’t have a stroke. Your typing goes away, and you’re back to hunt and peck only you don’t aim so good and have to correct every sentence.

        1. I know David Weber relies heavily on dictation software — alas, at times it shows in his later work.
          I keep buying Honorverse stuff out of habit — hoping he will one day recapture the magic of the early installments. HH1 through HH5 are among my favorite scifi novels ever.

        2. My Dad, who does a lot of contract attorney work for the State of California (on behalf of people who the state is providing legal representation for), uses Dragon quite heavily. I don’t know whether he uses it exclusively, but I wouldn’t be surprised if he does. He appears to like it a lot.

    3. … treat their girlfriends like goddesses

      That’s putting women on pedestals and is w.r.o.n.g. with a capital Raw. Women are not only just as equal as men (so long as men don’t cheat and set stupid unrealistic and impractical standards like putting their clubhouses up in trees that grrrls can’t climb), women are even equalyier because they can haz glittery hoo-has.

      If boys want to be treated humanely they should try being human*.

      *Do not seek out a definition of that word, it is malleable beyond the capacity of Proteus and essentially boils down to “what he ain’t.”

      1. “…women are even equalyier because they can haz glittery hoo-has.”

        What happens to this theory (and I use that term loosely) when some man puts glitter on his penis?

        1. It’s still not a hoo-ha, and won’t be until and unless the guy has a Lopitoffame.

        2. Glittery… things seem so uncomfy. I’ll stick with gluing rhinestones on my dorky over-the-prescription-glasses sun glasess.

          1. That’s why you use a thick liquid latex base, so it is only uncomfortable for the other person.

          2. When I finally figured out what they were gluing where when vajazzling was explained to me, I figured it was a last ditch anti-intercourse tactic because what guy doesn’t want to bang that!?!

  8. I recently read Robert Graves’ “The White Goddess,” which is as weird and far-fetched a speculation on ancient religion as you will find anywhere. (He spends most of it looking for clues of an ancient pan-European goddess-worshiping religion that is where all true poetry comes from.) The refreshing thing about it is that even though he’s outright *advocating* for a ‘return’ to goddess-worship, at no point does he say that it will be peaceful and bucolic, and that matriarchy would solve our problems. No, the Goddess demands quite a lot of blood and violence and killing. So I appreciated that. Graves was kinda nutty, but he wasn’t crazy enough to believe that a matriarchal society would be peaceful and lovely.

    1. I suspect that he may have want to depict the society that way.

      Or perhaps his predecessors did. The whole “Great Goddess” and the “maiden, mother, crone” are a wholesale Victorian invention.

      1. He’s got a whole imaginative sequence where he tells you that Goddess-worshipers ought to be tramping around a smoky sacrificial fire intoning “Blood, blood, blood. Kill, kill, kill.” 😀 His scholarship does descend from Frazer, but he thought that Frazer didn’t go nearly far enough. Graves served in WWI, got to hate everybody, wrote a memoir vilifying them, and then left England for a Greek island, never to return. So he was …one of a kind. 🙂

    2. Whenever someone starts waxing lyrical about how things would be all the awesome if goddess worship/women-in-charge/matriarchy were in place, I point them to the section of crime history websites and advise them to read up on the known female serial killers, or some of the female Nazi officers who ran camps. A goodly chunk of them are a million times worse than their male counterparts in terms of creative, vicious evil…

      1. Ever hear “Don’t let the women get you!”? [Grin]

        1. When the Himalayan peasant meets the he-bear in his pride,
          He shouts to scare the monster, who will often turn aside.
          But the she-bear thus accosted rends the peasant tooth and nail.
          For the female of the species is more deadly than the male.

          When Nag the basking cobra hears the careless foot of man,
          He will sometimes wriggle sideways and avoid it if he can.
          But his mate makes no such motion where she camps beside the trail.
          For the female of the species is more deadly than the male.

          When the early Jesuit fathers preached to Hurons and Choctaws,
          They prayed to be delivered from the vengeance of the squaws.
          ‘Twas the women, not the warriors, turned those stark enthusiasts pale.
          For the female of the species is more deadly than the male.

          Man’s timid heart is bursting with the things he must not say,
          For the Woman that God gave him isn’t his to give away;
          But when hunter meets with husband, each confirms the other’s tale —
          The female of the species is more deadly than the male.

          Man, a bear in most relations-worm and savage otherwise, —
          Man propounds negotiations, Man accepts the compromise.
          Very rarely will he squarely push the logic of a fact
          To its ultimate conclusion in unmitigated act.

          Fear, or foolishness, impels him, ere he lay the wicked low,
          To concede some form of trial even to his fiercest foe.
          Mirth obscene diverts his anger — Doubt and Pity oft perplex
          Him in dealing with an issue — to the scandal of The Sex!

          But the Woman that God gave him, every fibre of her frame
          Proves her launched for one sole issue, armed and engined for the same;
          And to serve that single issue, lest the generations fail,
          The female of the species must be deadlier than the male.

          She who faces Death by torture for each life beneath her breast
          May not deal in doubt or pity — must not swerve for fact or jest.
          These be purely male diversions — not in these her honour dwells.
          She the Other Law we live by, is that Law and nothing else.

          She can bring no more to living than the powers that make her great
          As the Mother of the Infant and the Mistress of the Mate.
          And when Babe and Man are lacking and she strides unclaimed to claim
          Her right as femme (and baron), her equipment is the same.

          She is wedded to convictions — in default of grosser ties;
          Her contentions are her children, Heaven help him who denies! —
          He will meet no suave discussion, but the instant, white-hot, wild,
          Wakened female of the species warring as for spouse and child.

          Unprovoked and awful charges — even so the she-bear fights,
          Speech that drips, corrodes, and poisons — even so the cobra bites,
          Scientific vivisection of one nerve till it is raw
          And the victim writhes in anguish — like the Jesuit with the squaw!

          So it cames that Man, the coward, when he gathers to confer
          With his fellow-braves in council, dare not leave a place for her
          Where, at war with Life and Conscience, he uplifts his erring hands
          To some God of Abstract Justice — which no woman understands.

          And Man knows it! Knows, moreover, that the Woman that God gave him
          Must command but may not govern — shall enthral but not enslave him.
          And She knows, because She warns him, and Her instincts never fail,
          That the Female of Her Species is more deadly than the Male.

      2. That is only because those women were damaged by constant micro-aggression by being forced to live in a patriarchal culture.

        You must ignore the evidence and so-called “facts” and look inside yourself, using your intuition to grasp the true horrors of growing up female in a male-ruled society, constantly subjected to the soul-destroying male gaze.

        You must put aside your brain and instead learn to think with your vagina (and vote with it, too. For Hillary.)

      1. Only on the “major” networks– the various niche broadcast ones are still doing it. Only one the kids watched when I was still bothering with it was “Smile of a Child” (Christian PBS), and I know that my folks’ cable networks have them when we visit, and I’m not fast enough to change the channel.

    1. Yes. They suck. Much PC lecturing.

      I’ve instituted Saturday Morning Cartoons Done Right in our house, thanks to Amazon, Netflix and Hulu.

      1. Nothing new, there. Remember Captain Planet? I’d prefer not to.

        1. Remember it? We did an MST3K style review on it and horrified my aunt, when my siblings and I were in single digits.

          1. Remember Big Blue (Marble?) I think it was the 1st kids eco show. I think it came out in the 80s.

            1. Must’ve been on one of the stations we didn’t have– School House Rock has some enviro-groaners, but at least it’s open.

        2. Oh, man, I *hated* Captain Planet as a kid. (And so did all the kids I knew.) It was so lame, and so preachy. Batman was MUCH cooler.

          1. Cripes, you kids don’t know how lucky you were.

            Sure, Captain Planet was bad … squared. But he was nothing —nothing I tell You! — compared to the absolute horror that was the Banana Splits!!!! Even more terrible was H.R. Pufnstuf who was aided by an Artful Dodger who clearly had decided that Fagin was insufficiently evil to merit his loyalty.

            Compared to those two shows, even Dastardly and Mutley was entertaining.

            1. I don’t know, “Lance Link, Secret Chimp” was pretty bad, and at least the Banana Splits were paired up with a couple of pretty good cartoons, “Arabian Knights” and “Three Musketeers.”

      2. What cartoons do you recommend? My sister is looking for an Avatar the Last Airbender replacement for her five.

        1. Mine are on the young side (Word World is the current love) but if they like Avatar, they might like Fairy Tail. We didn’t run into anything seriously objectionable so far, but I’m a ranch kid and he’s a military kid so some things we don’t blink at give others serious trouble. We’re also both pretty big into Japanese culture and how it’s different from anything with a Christian base….

          They might like Inu Yasha, also. Slayers is good, although that one YMMV– actual calling-on-demons type magic is how the main character works. I view it as mocking the evil, kind of like how seeing someone drop an anvil on a dog’s head in Warner Brothers never gave me a desire to do the same, but it’s a very family culture thing.

          Naruto might work if the parents watch the episode with their first assignment, first, and evaluate based on their kids; most of the disturbing stuff there bugs adults more than kids.
          I use that as a measure because a character does… well, you know the “it’s just a flesh wound” thing in Monty Python? Imagine if that was re-done in a totally bad-ass, redemption-from-really-black-evil-by-awesome with mass murder type fashion. I don’t know their kids, and have no idea what their ages are. I dealt with character death– even a same-age-as-the-young-teen-protagonists death– fairly easily when I was a kid, actually easier than I do now; some kids would be traumatized by the sacrifice that precedes the extremely evil character– whose evils are mentioned and somewhat shown– having a redemptive death. This is a show where SEVERAL characters’ backstories include “and then they killed the entire village.” Both as victim of, and the one who did the killing.

          Moving away from Avatar style shows, if they can get their hands on the newly released Batman live-action series in order, it’s good.

          Oooh! And the Justice League shows are on netflix, those would actually be a great safe bet for A:TLA. There’s two, Justice League and Justice League Unlimited– amazingly good storylines.

          My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, if the boys are able to watch it and the girls aren’t in the “that’s baby stuff” stage yet.

          1. Take all of this with a grain of salt, and watch some episodes with your kids before you let them go. Most of this is anime.

            Put down another vote for Naruto. Upside, you’ll never run out of episodes. (300 in the first series, and the follow-on, Naruto Shippuden is at 411 and counting…)

            Full Metal Alchemist: Brotherhood. (The original is all right, but I MUCH prefer Brotherhood.) Gets dark pretty quick, but I loved it all the same.

            Crunchyroll has quite a few episodes of Rurouni Kenshin also, and I remember that being a lot of fun.

            Samurai 7.

            Also, Young Justice, once the kids have finished Justice League and Unlimited.

            And if you’re looking for something lighter, School Rumble was hilarious.

            1. There are a couple mature moments, and a little bit of fan service (but no nudity) but for it’s general attitude i cannot more highly recommend “Gurren Lagann”

              Good storytelling, great characters, etc.

              1. Oh yeah. LOVED that. Even when it took that really drastic turn around episode 8. Every now and then, I stop and remember Kamina’s best line.

                1. ….that actually makes a lot more sense than is really comfortable to consider.

                  (What? Like nobody else has ever gone “Well, I don’t think I can do that…but I know that THEIR judgement is usually better than mine, and THEY think I can…..”)

            2. Tangent: I *adored* the Rorouni Kenshin OVA as a teen – it’s beautiful and awesome and sad and heroic and and and – but the blood quantity was… a little much for me. Definitely not kids’ fare.

            1. This — Eureka! Program 1 – Inertia — is a superb introduction to basic physics in about 33 lessons averaging about five minutes each. It is not (that I have been able to find) available for purchase but can be found on the web.

              I used to have a series of Chemistry lessons bookmarked but those did require a higher background; these physics lessons ought be accessible to almost any age.

            2. Once they are older, and if the videos even exist anymore, the kids might like “Once Upon a Classic.” These were full-book dramatizations of things like _Long John Silver_ and _The Talisman_. There’s also the original “Reading Rainbow,” at least the first three or four seasons (all that I am personally familiar with.)

          2. You’ve got to check the age- developmentally-appropriate factor, but Animaniacs and Freakazoid are good. Depending on tolerance for production values it is still hard to beat Rocky & Bullwinkle and I heartily recommend Dangermouse.

            Non animation, the Muppet Show collections are great (I admit I never much took to Fraggle Rock, but YMMV) and older Muppet efforts, such as Muppets Frog Prince are a hoot.

            If older Dr. Who (original series) are available, try those. Shelley Duvall’s Faerie Tale Theatre and the various Rabbit Ears productions (e.g., Robin Williams’ reading of The Fool and the Flying Ship) are delights drawing on the tales of multiple cultures (e.g., Sigourney Weaver’s reading of Peachboy.) These often offer a book to go with the program, reinforcing the child’s experience.

            Audiobooks which children can play are another excellent way of providing quality material for them.

            1. Oooh, good point on Animaniacs, although if that’s a bit too old there’s also Backyardigans. (Each episode has at least one musical style; the kids hit the one based on Gilbert and Sullivan and fell in love.)

              1. That episode is my son’s favorite, too. Yo Gabba Gabba is good if you like 80s-style craziness. PBS Kids has Peg + Cat, which my daughter adores (and which has a sense of humor that adults can appreciate.) I’m mostly off of the Nick Jr. and Disney Jr. shows due to cloying writing, aside from YGG and the Backyardigans.

        2. Part cartoon, part real kids scavenger hunt, my kids loved “Fetch! With Ruff Ruffman.” It ran on PBS just a few years ago. Probably best for the 12 and under crowd.

        3. My Little Pony is a (surprisingly) good option.
          Wakfu is also a good cartoon, lots of adventure. I like watching it in French.

          1. I can’t remember where, but one of the political websites noted that a recent My Little Pony episode had a surprisingly libertarian theme.

            I’m still not going to start watching it, mind you…


            1. They did a surprisingly individualistic episode where the bad guy (a female character, horror of horrors!) was a pony who pretended to make all the other ponies “equal” by taking away what made them special. The equal sign in this episode actually stood for something sinister. I was floored.

        4. Animaniacs. All the old Warner Brothers cartoons. Tom and Jerry, Coyote and Road Runner, Speedy Gonzales (he likes my sister!). There are even new versions of Woody the Woodpecker and Chilly Willy. For the under-10s, try the boxed set of the Rocky and Bullwinkle Show.

          1. Gargoyles was great, if you can find it. 🙂

            Also: Tailspin, DuckTales, and Darkwing Duck.

              1. DuckTales has the best theme music/intro along with the coolest adult. Scrooge McDuck and his nephews? Warms the cockles of my shriveled Republican heart.

      3. I was very glad to have discovered CW was running the JLA cartoons and set the recorder to ensure I never missed them. Happily, they concluded the series before cancelling their ‘toons.

      1. Yeah, but even 8 years it seemed like there weren’t hardly any cartoons on Saturday mornings, mostly live action shows.

        I miss my childhood cartoons. Scooby-Doo, Dynomutt, Thundar the Barbarian, Pandemonium, Tarzan and Zorro.

  9. I had 3 boys then 2 girls and then a son. Our younger daughter once told her little brother, “Remember Stephen, girls are not the root of all evil, but they are the stems and the leaves.”

    And that is not to say that she and her sister are not fine, upstanding, hardworking, easy to get along with girls. They do take after their mother after all. But there has been a definite downward turn in the way the average girl treats the average guy. Girls used to treat guys better than they treat each other, but no more. There is no thought to a woman finding a man who is going to be king of her castle. Nope it seems like they are all looking for some pliant peasant who will cater to her every whim and not put up a fuss when she moves on and takes the kids and everything he has ever worked for with her.

    It’s all very sad and depressing.

    1. Very, very this. It’s scary being a mom of a boy and seeing how girls are encouraged to treat them.

    2. Of course girls aren’t the root of all evil. That’s the love of money. On the other hand, time is money, and girls require both. Therefore:
        √(evil) = money = time
      → girls = money×time = money² = evil

  10. There’s still at least one acceptable way in the US to emphasize the “practical” choice over the “true love” choice. A Twilight Zone episode exemplified it quite well. A young, well-to-do woman has a choice between her rich suitor (i.e. the practical choice), and the poor man that she’s in love with. She gets scared one day while out horseback riding when she encounters a woman in black, also riding a horse, who pursues after her.

    At the end of the episode, we find out that the woman in black is her future self, trying to warn her past-self to not pick the poor man that she loves. She ultimately ended up marrying that man, and he quickly became a drunken wastrel.

  11. My daughter, when younger, used to come up and tell me that her little brother had hit her. I always replied by asking her what she had done to him to make him mad enough to hit her.

    I gave them both, together, the lecture that girls fight with their words, boys fight with their fists. They are both fighting. They both draw blood and leave bruises, but the ones the girls dish out hurt longer and are less visible afterwards.

    After about the fourth time, it finally sank in, and she stopped antagonize him.

  12. Just heard about this:

    Celebrate VE Day.

    Washington Post:
    World War II veterans will get an aerial salute over Washington skies
    By Michael E. Ruane, Published: May 6

    Reagan National Airport will be closed to commercial traffic for an hour Friday as the skies over Washington fill with the roar of an antique air armada buzzing the capital in honor of World War II veterans.

    The “Arsenal of Democracy Flyover” is scheduled to bring scores of World War II vintage aircraft in a 50-minute aerial salute to veterans and mark the 70th anniversary of the end of the war in Europe on May 8, 1945.

    Fifty-six bombers, fighters, dive bombers and trainers are scheduled to fly over the Potomac River, the Lincoln Memorial, the National World War II Memorial and the Capitol, starting at 12:10 p.m.

    The airport will be closed from noon to 1 p.m. to accommodate the flyover, organizers said.

    The planes — P-51, P-40 and P-38 fighters, as well as B-17, B-25, and B-29 bombers, among others — will fly in 15 separate formations at 90-second intervals.

    The flyover, which is dependent on the weather, will start at the American Legion Memorial Bridge, which connects Fairfax and Montgomery counties.

    The airplanes must have cloud cover no lower than 2,000 feet and visibility of five miles. The rain date is Saturday.

    The flight will be the climax of a rain-or-shine ceremony and wreath laying at the World War II Memorial. The ceremony is scheduled to start at 10:30 a.m.

    Hundreds of World War II veterans as well as foreign dignitaries are expected. Former secretary of state Madeleine Albright is scheduled to speak.

    The term “arsenal of democracy” was used in a 1940 address by President Franklin D. Roosevelt when he urged that the United States provide Great Britain material help in the fight against Nazi Germany. The United States was not yet in the war then.

    The National Park Service and the Friends of the National World War II Memorial are helping to organize the event on the ground.

    The aircraft for Friday’s event will take off from two airports in Virginia.

    Most bombers will fly from Manassas, and most fighters will fly from Culpeper.

    On Wednesday, the Culpeper Regional Airport was busy with colorfully painted fighters and dark blue Navy dive bombers preparing for the flyover. Overhead, a huge B-29 circled, and three trainers flew by in formation.

    “It’s an opportunity of a lifetime,” said Beth Jenkins, one of the pilots of Devil Dog, the dark blue B-25 bomber. “That’s what we live for. To really honor those who have honored us.”

    Many of the airplanes are scheduled to be on display Saturday at the National Air and Space Museum’s Steven F. Udvar-Hazy Center, in Chantilly, Va.

    1. CSPAN will have it live. And probably rerun it later. I saw the news in my CAF Wing and Squadron newsletters this AM.

          1. Some pictures are posted on my blog now. Sorry, my camera is old and sort of sucked for today’s event.

            One of the SBDs went low over the river and landed at Reagan National due to some mechanical problem. No damage, pilot safe.

              1. *grin* It couldn’t have been the Dauntless or I’d have had the “send money now!!!!” e-mail in my box already.

            1. FWIW I voted against the name change. But our options at the time were bad, worse, and lose our largest donors and airshows.

  13. As someone who’s lived and studied in the Middle East, I have to point out that the Muslim headscarf is a bit more nuanced than you make out.

    In extremist Wahhabist countries like Saudi Arabia where the headscarf is mandated by law and enforced by corporal punishment, then yes, there are many of the uncomfortable associations that you mention here. In more moderate countries like Jordan, however, the headscarf is a matter of choice, and many Muslim women choose not to wear it. Of course, social norms being what they are, there is still a lot of pressure to wear it, but it’s much more nuanced than “the boys will all rape you if you uncover your hair.”

    In the 60s and 70s, the majority of Arab women did not wear the headscarf at all (at least in countries like Egypt and Jordan). Back then, Gamal Abd Al Nasr and Arab Nationalism were all the rage, and Islamism as a political movement hadn’t yet taken off (Islamism =/= Jihadism, for the record. There are moderate Islamist parties in both Tunisia and Turkey (Ennahda and the AKP), and to my knowledge neither of them has a terrorist wing). After the Pan-Arab movement failed and the Muslim Brotherhood began its ascension in Egypt, Islamism became much more popular, and the headscarf became a symbol of adherence to Islamist ideals. In Turkey, where the headscarf was restricted by law for several decades, wearing the headscarf was at least as much a political statement as a religious one.

    There’s also a very big difference between a burqa (I assume that’s what you mean by “slip cover”), a niqab, and the much more common hijab. The burqa turns everyone into an anonymous faceless blob, and is exactly as despicable as you point out. The niqab is similar, though not quite as anonymous, as the eyes are left uncovered (there is a reason why Arab pop songs are so obsessed with eyes). With the hijab, the face is completely visible and the headscarf itself becomes something of a fashion statement. There’s nothing anonymous or faceless about it. Muslim women have found an endless number of ways to coordinate their hijabs with the rest of their wardrobe, which leads me to believe that the social pressure to wear the headscarf comes at least as much (if not more) from other women than from men.

    I’m not saying that the sexual undertones do not exist, because they do. Women who don’t wear the headscarf are often seen as easy, kind of like women in the US who wear short shorts or show lots of cleavage. And in the extremist countries like Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan, the covering of women is exactly as despicable as you point out. But other parts of the Muslim world are quite different. In Amman, I knew several Muslim girls at the University who chose not to wear the headscarf and still managed to get along in society just fine. And the girls who did choose to wear the headscarf all did it at least as much to make a political/religious statement as much as anything else (kind of like wearing a cross in the US).

    1. Yes — the headscarf was still customary in Portugal when I grew up, and it was mostly a “we do this” — I meant of course the enforced by law one, with the morality police with whips.

    1. The pill is safe in comparison what was there before — says she who grew up in a village and who knows the safest “herbs” are as likely to kill the mother as the suspected life in her womb (suspected, since many women took these at the first delay, fooling themselves into feeling less remorse if they weren’t SURE.)

      1. Yeah, many (all?) of the so-called “birth-control” herbs were actually abortion drugs. Which works as a contraceptive method, but is like any other drug: it has side-effects and is a poison if taken too often or too much of a dose.

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