The Dreams of which Stuff is Made – by Wyrdbard
No, this isn’t about quantum physics. This is about fantasy, science fiction, horror, and all the rest. It is also about the human spirit.
Our hostess has more than once said we are a storytelling species. (And while I have issues with the also oft cited Hogfather quote, the point it makes is good.) Wisdom is usually dearly bought, and each generation tries to pass along that which is right and true to the next. Or at least the functional ones do.
Which is where storytellers come in. Science fiction and fantasy and yes, horror, all serve a purpose. Fantasy is “What dreams should I dream and how do I tell good dreams from bad ones?” Science fiction is “I have dreams, what do I do with them? And what if people chase the bad ones?” Horror is “When our dreams go terribly wrong this is the result. Be careful.” (Though I will speak less of horror than the other two. It is not my genre in any sense.)
Now, this does not mean each story should be a sermon. But stories, by their nature, play with ideas. Truth is a slippery creature, how do you show someone it is important? Stories can often do that more clearly than raw facts. This sort of thing is why Sabaton is so effective at hooking people into history. Yes, they get details wrong, but the STORY is compelling and that pulls people in to go find the facts.
In defense of fantasy:
Fantasy is the realm of dreams. What if? What if we could… it rarely concerns itself with how except in the mad scramble of the REACH for the thing that works right now. Also, by its touch with the mystical, shows faith more clearly than Science Fiction usually manages. Faith in science fiction often becomes another fact. It can be a human fact but the wonder of faith is often lost in Science Fiction, where it more easily comes to the fore in Fantasy.
Dreams can be good, dreams can be bad. Fantasy looks at them, and little fancies spun out to their conclusion let us test them without touching the real world with them. Fantasy answers “Can dragons be killed?” Fantasy answers “Can life go on?” Fantasy answers “Can men of good will rise to the occasion?” Fantasy answers “What darkness tempts men’s souls?” Fantasy also answers “Can a man resist the darkness?” Fantasy answers “What are the duties of a Leader?”
Fantasy also looks at ‘where do we come from’. With its roots in the mythological it can help us set our roots deep in our past. “What drove our ancestors?” We have their stories and myths and legends, and while some things are shockingly different, courage and honor and truth weave through them. So there is a connection and a good one. Fantasy lets us examine all those things so we can learn from mistakes, and embrace strengths of the past.
Many of the old things are under attack. The foundation upon which the future is built is under attack. Strength is derided unless it is the strength of the thug. Yet, as long as Aragorn, son of Arathorn is spoken of, as long as the High King Peter steps out on to the field with Miraz the Usurper, as long as a mouse named Mathias opposes a besieging bilge rat (Redwall for those unfamiliar), strength and courage an honor have not lost their hold.
In defense of Science Fiction:
If Fantasy deals in what dreams are and the past, Science Fiction deals in what comes beyond dreams. Science Fiction deals in ‘can we make the dream real?’ Science Fiction also deals in ‘should we make the dream real?’ Which is why there is more cautionary Science Fiction than Fantasy. Fantasy looks to the stars, Science Fiction touches them.
Rather than “Can the dragon be killed?” Science Fiction asks “How do we kill the dragon, and what comes after?” Science Fiction asks “How does life go on?” Science fiction asks “What causes men of good will to rise to the occasion?” Science Fiction asks “What kind of system leads to leaders that follow their duty and what is an appropriate duty?” Science Fiction asks “How does man resist the darkness?”
Science Fiction asks more than it answers. It is the playground of the future. It builds on that which goes before and tries to reach the next star. If Fantasy gives roots, Science fiction gives up reaching branches. It seeks to go further and fast and seeks the NEW. The possibilities. Science Fiction is a quest to find out what we will become.
Like the old, the new is under attack. Science Fiction tells people that they can build anew upon the old roots. And that they can choose who and what to be. It warns them to choose wisely. Which is why so much these days the emphasis is on the past. Those who build, who reach, might find something strange or dangerous. As strength is derrided, so is the ability to build new strength. Yet we have Honor Harrington. We have Dorsai. We have Luke and Leia challenging Admiral Thrawn. As long as these and their companions exist we have branches that reach for the stars, and we can add more.
Roots of fantasy, branches of Science Fiction, the strong trunk of the present. That trunk is also under assault. The roots nourish it. The Branches challenge it. And there are stories of the real, the now. Worthwhile ones, though they are seldom stories found in books these days. (And there are exceptions even there.)
Stories do not have to be fictitious. Sabaton is not. The tales some folk here tell of their lives and the lives of others are stories as well, wrapped in a presentation that people wish to listen to. And the stories will outlast the teller. Somehow they always seem to.
This power is why stories and the arts were some of the first targets of the culture war. This power is why Indie is so valuable. The stories are there and can be found. Courage is not dead. Strength is not gone. Hope is not lost.
According To Hoyt 
I’m sure most of us have heard of Tolkien’s thought on “escapism”: IE Jailers are always worried about people escaping.
IIRC Plato’s Republic mentions “banning storytellers” basically because they told the wrong stories and the people in charge of Plato’s “Republic” wanted only their stories told. Thus there’s nothing new in the world. :sad:
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He only wanted to have them tell the right stories. For instance, banning all stories that attributed evil conduct to the gods.
Later, when he proposed to ban all stories, it was because real life is a copy of a Platonic ideal, and art is merely a copy of real life and so it is even more muddled than real life.
One notes that Aristotle defended art as more philosophical than history because artists didn’t have to just ape real life, they could deduce ideals from the reals and emulate them. And better.
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To second the point, I have recently been watching some fantasy shows from the 90’s, and they are delightful.
One is the Connan cartoon, and while it is clearly aimed at people younger than me, I am still amazed at the quality of plot and pro social portrayal of the hero, particular compared to massive budget modern movies.
Second is Magical Knight Reyearth, a delightful magical girl isekei, which hits all the tropes implied by that description in the most joyfully unapologetic way.
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*No, this isn’t about quantum physics.*
I know I was **supposed** to feel relief, rather than.. disappointment.
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Eh, more trying to be upfront about which sets of dreams that make stuff work we were talking about. Were I able to talk quantum physics I probably would as well.
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It is a superimposition of content states in which this story *is* and *is not* about quantum physics at the same time. To resolve the uncertainty, the story must be read, and the Schrödinger wave probabilities resolve and the story *is not* about quantum physics. You have to open the story to see what’s in it.
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“You have to open the story to see what’s in it.”
Who knew Nancy Pelosi was a quantum physicist? 8-)
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Personally, I think I would have to make a lot of progress before I would have anything interesting to say about quantum physics.
Classical electromagnetics, and classical mechanics, are the bits of physics that I am closest to really understanding well.
Quantum optics? I do not understand what application I am interested in, and would need it for. I do not understand the experimental basis for preferring it to classical EM. I do not understand exactly what it implies.
In a matter of weeks, I will probably try to pick another advanced topic, and try again to follow what is going on. But, for now the simpler things are drawing my attention.
That said, there are fun ‘dream stuff’ topics about applying classical physics to realizing dreams.
I’m about fifty fifty split on the question of whether I will have the sense to say much in the near future.
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Well, you definitely wrote truly when you said you wouldn’t be covering horror extensively. After digging my way out of my first contemporary horror anthology in a long time, I conclude that there are generally two themes in the genre:
FAFO. I like these more.
In the words of the dreaded Dark Helmet, “Now you see that Evil will always triumph because Good is dumb.”
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That is what I get for not reading through it before hitting save and send. I’d planned a brief look into Horror, (which, frankly horror-as-cautionary-tale would have been the focus. Or as you put it the FAFO stories. See also “Why we don’t touch that with someone else’s 10ft pole”.)
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Horror can also have a strong man vs. nature element to them. This is what I focused on in my horror, back in ye olden dayes. Bad things exist. Terrible things happen- to the good, the bad, the indifferent. The protagonists react.
These days I have more resolution in mind to things. Good guys win- not because they are *good,* but because they *work* for it. Salvation is earned with sweat and blood.
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I once did a fan-fic short story that those who read it assured me should be in the horror category.
I still don’t see it, so maybe trying to write horror would be a mistake?
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Eh, maybe/maybe not. Depends on what speaks to you, and what you want to get out of it. Horror can teach you writing tools in a way no other genre can, at least for me.
Pacing is king in horror. Bad pacing will destroy even a good story and drive the readers away. Good pacing can save even a mediocre tale from being tossed, at least for a while.
Character, not so much, because the characters generally lose out to the need to drive the pace. You build character during the pauses- where the reader gets a chance to breathe- and the critical moments where the character MUST choose and choose quickly. That forces you to pack a lot of things into little moments, and that can turn out heavy handed- but horror readers are more forgiving of that.
The plot is also driven by the pace, be it a slow tension with sharp spikes where keeps escalating to the conclusion, or a relentless drive with snatched moments of peace that you as the author shatter ruthlessly in order to poke the character back into motion.
Every genre has something to teach a writer. I suck at comedy writing, but still throw a few jokes in here and there. Romance is something that some readers gobble up like it’s made of pure cane sugar and meth combined, but I don’t really have the chops for it. There’s tropes, a skeleton of a plot, and a lot of characterization that I sorta get, but it ain’t what I’m good at.
The short time I get to write is spent furiously hammering the keys in order to get the bones of the plot out, fleshing it out before I run out of gas, then a quick edit pass to make sure I don’t give a guy three arms again, then post. That’s probably why it turns out looking like pulp all the time.
But anyway, horror. Go for it if it speaks to you. Give your readers some spine tingling excitement, shocks, and slow burning terror. The way to get better is to get those words onna page and under the eyeballs of readers. Then figure out what works, what you’re good at, and make lots of it.
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Remember when we were still going to the movies. Not that it covered the books anywhere near adequately but when some previews come on it was “Read the book. Gotta see that.” But there was one book. Preview came on, hubby said “that looks interesting”. I turned to him and said. “No way. Read the book. Scared the hell out of me. No way am I putting actual visuals in its place!” I’ve never seen that movie. I don’t normally read horror. Book was in the “adventure” category.
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Was this the one about the Mayan temple ruins covered in people-eating vines?
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Relic – Pendergast, book 1
“Thriller” by Preston & Child.
Second book Relicquary isn’t as scary, because while suspenseful reader knows what is responsible, just not who, and who is being stupid.
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I don’t like horror, and I certainly don’t write it. But apparently I write it without intending to, so trying to write it would probably be overkill.
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Thank you for this.
I did a research paper back in high school about dreams. Dreams are the screen saver of the brain. It is scientifically proven that people who physically do not dream go nuts. My personal belief is that people who mentally do not dream do not create, and people who emotionally do not dream spiritually die.
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There is also just simple “fiction” which can be based on reality or very loosely tied to the real but close enough that it works. Spy novels, mysteries, novels overall can be very valuable too.
I am watching the TV program “Masters of the Air” about WWII and the European war efforts of the Army Air Force. While fiction, it is based on real events and tells the story with all of the elements as well. Some like it and some don’t – I enjoy it and value the story being told. Dad was a P-47 pilot in the Pacific theater and the few stories and memories from then that he shared still make me think.
Overall – stories are one of the good things about life. Thanks…
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I do mysteries. I like the ones in which “normal” people can solve them and reset the word
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But is Dyce normal?? 🤓
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handicapped is more normal than not.
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Poetic.
I agree with the descriptions but I ‘feel’ (I may be wrong, or just reading that which I wish was there) aspects of both e.g. science fiction and fantasy roles/effects appear in both genres (or at least in the ones I enjoy the most). Aren’t the differences mainly in the setting and “props” rather than in the story itself? The best stories have often been written in multiple scenarios and genres, in each case the story remains good whatever, no? [asking not stating, to be clear]
I admit to ‘only’ enjoying stories in which I can identify with a character (often the most unlikely ones at that – I wonder what that says about me) but what I ‘seem’ to crave and ‘like’ the most are those which I can, and have often, used as “examples” (lacking a real-world, personal or just read about, role-model, in some situation or other, I apparently default to the fictional – and not just in extreme situations, even if those in particular, but in simply coping with the issues of everyday life).
I think we (may?) all do the same, to one extent or another, using stories to ‘replace’ or ‘reinforce’ those examples and role-models we ‘need’ – or is that again just me?
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There is overlap, and this is a deep level analysis of the genre. To draw on music it’s the difference between a true minor and some of the modes that exist that simply echo with the minor but they function differently. Most people listening to the piece won’t care about the differences, but some of their reactions and the tone the music sets in their minds are different because of those different functions.
And yes, the emphasis should always be on the good story. And frankly I didn’t do much with the ‘trunk’ of my metaphor: War stories, mysteries, and so forth (another commenter mentioned several up above) The ideas behind this, or perhaps more their expression, came out of several arguments both of what the true difference between Science Fiction and Fantasy IS. Is Star Wars fantasy because of Space Wizards? I’d say no, and not because of the space ships. I’d say because it’s about moving forward, it’s not about ‘can man resist the darkness’ but HOW. And how does man walk back from being lost in darkness. A true fantasy, in the same setting would have had subtle differences. But, because the differences are subtle, it can be hard to stick your finger on exactly why this one FEELS Sci-Fi and that one FEELS Fantasy even if the they are very similar.
I do not think it is just you, but I also don’t think it’s just role models. It’s concepts. those characters model. They let us look at strength, and honor and courage and duty and justice in ways that we can’t easily do in the real and concrete world. And if they do it overtly, they have failed. The speech on honor in a story should serve to rally the troops not explain what honor is. The person giving the speech should be living that step by step through the pages of the book or the scenes of the movie. Role models yes, but more concept models. I do not wish to be a king. That is not my role, but I have learned much about courage and duty from Aragorn.
As to poetic. For my sins I am actually a poet and that part of me sometimes slips its leash when I’m not looking.
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The curse of many a poet. You have to love the language to do it. Once you’ve got that, it never really leaves.
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Thanks, I particularly like the musical analogy (I was ‘forced’ to play cornet in a brass band as a child, and it still has ‘untoward’ effects).
Character/role models. Are we talking about archetypes here? I went to (I feel old) Grammar school and was required to read “the classics” and have ever since been cursed with seeing its characters and archetypes in everything I read. I suspect this is a level deeper than I have considered … er considering.
Don’t apologise for “slipping the leash”, partly it was, not jealously/envy (Oh OK perhaps a bit) but … a fond desire on my part to (maybe just once) be able to use language “as an instrument, a paint brush, to say without saying”.
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Defining genres and sub-genres in fiction is trickier than music in many cases. Try following the categories of metal or electronic music when dealing with hard-core aficionados. At some point entertainment becomes a spectrum with more than a single linear dimension.
Star Wars trends more towards the fantasy realm than say a series like “The Expanse” even though the “technology” isn’t plausible, the later violates less of our current understand of physics and human nature. And the quality of the writing and atmosphere varies greatly between the two “universes”. One is cotton candy and popcorn, the other is steak and roasted brussel sprouts.
“The Culture” is clearly science fiction while the “Dresden Files” are urban fantasy/mystery. Neither is any more plausible than the other, but industry and the audience have clearly determined their respective niches.
The recent slew of super hero movies are fantasy. But there is a wish fulfillment escapist element which omits and demises the true courage, abilities and possibilities of “normal” people. Celebrating the escape of Andy Dufresne from prison seems to have more meaning to some than debating which god-mutant can whup another in a hail of special effects.
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Are these genre/sub-genre distinctions ‘real’ or ‘interpretations’ (like the art aficionados who ‘appear’ to construct interpretations and nuances that, to the ‘uninitiated’ could be real, or be just to exclude the ‘unwashed)? [again asking]
I’m reminded of the Bruce Lee (quoting some older, or possibly apocryphal, sage). To completely mangle and misquote:
“When you first start training in the martial arts a punch is just a punch, as you progress the subtle nuances, techniques and differences arise, until you become a master and a punch is just a punch again”.
Or am I missing something (again)?
Is the (finger-nail sketch/crib notes precis for us new to thinking about this, and possibly struggling) difference the … plausibility? (and why do I keep thinking of the quote “Any sufficiently advanced …”?)
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The categorization and mostly specialization is to attract readers who have preferences. It’s an attempt to say “If you like this type of story, then you might these books.” It’s harder for casual readers of the genre because they may not understand the groupings, the tropes, themes, mindsets or writing styles.
Working in a library or bookstore, you may observe there are a very few readers that may read everything like omnivores consuming world cuisine. But most are discriminating even though their tastes may change over time or mood.
There are those that devour pulp romances with occasional snacking at the youth fantasy. Others want the taste of military, either historical novels or science fiction. You might be better off asking people what they don’t like or see what sections of the library or store they ignore.
Or work in a music store either physical or virtual. Or travel. Or go on a road trip and see which station or satellite channel different people prefer. Not every person will appreciate specific forms of classical, rap, easy listening, metal, jazz, R&B at a specific time or at all.
But there are definite distinctions that can be identified. And a difference in craftsmanship that distinguishes a Gordon Lightfoot from the White Stripes. But one can like both depending on the situation.
Just like the differences in martial arts. A newbie doesn’t know enough to understand nuances like footwork, striking, submissions or style. This is true of many things in life and isn’t “gatekeeping”, it’s education.
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Got it, thanks.
I always felt different in that whilst young I liked most of the music my peers and friends did, but I only liked some of it (maybe one or two songs an album, then nothing else a band did). At the same time I liked many different styles. Even now I don’t really understand how someone can claim to like everything a performer puts out. My MP3 player has a somewhat random and eclectic collection on it.
Reading for me is generally similar (often in the past steered by what was available or hopefully found left on the deployment bunk or stashed behind a rock in an LP/OP). I have preferences, but try to still read widely. I wonder, just like with music, am I likely to miss something I would enjoy, simply because it’s not ‘technically’ in the genres I prefer (but please don’t ask me for my favourite romance novel, but I will admit to still liking and re-reading periodically a lot of young adult – Dave Freer and Alan Garner amongst them).
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Outlander books by Diana Galbaldon
Science Fiction (Time Travel, What-if-ism)
Fantasy (Blue Light, Special powers)
Romance
Historical Fiction
Adventure
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Magic Wand / Dr McCoy’s “salt shaker” analyzer.
Zap spell / phaser
Magic carpet / shuttlecraft
dimension door / transporter
strange old world / strange new world
orcs / klingons
gee whiz / gizmo
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Magic mirror / Scanner / Television
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Lately I have used a metaphor to explain my relationship with God. I am an old knight who has been rusting, along with his armor, back beyond nowhere. There is a knock on the door. I open it. It is the King. He invites me on an adventure. I think to myself, “where is the W D40”? He knowing my thoughts says. “I will provide what you need.” This week someone upon hearing me tell this, suggested I write a children’s story about it.
So this week I have been transported to this world. I realize it is after the fall, and then a deeper fall. No electricity, people worship the dumb idols of dead cell phones, trying to get eliza to return. Science fiction? No magic, but the remains of science that appears to be magic. Spirits along wires. Tribes, slavery, most of the world dead, yet it is a story of hope in the midst of evil. A story about a man called to an adventure. Not safe, not easy, but a journey with an unknown destination. Traveling with someone to trust. Will you trust the King?
Regarding poetry:
I am a poet who doesn’t trust poets.
I am a prophet who doesn’t trust prophets.
I am a cynic who knows God speaks. (and knocks at doors).
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I’m a story teller by vocation. Some have footnotes and bibliographies, others are “just” fiction. I grew up reading sci-fi, then mil-sci-fi, because it told me about things that were better than what I was enduring, and perhaps how to escape and how to behave. Ditto Rudyard Kipling’s poetry. I’ve written some sci-fi, but more fantasy, because that seems to be where my talents fall. I don’t have David Drake or Harry Turtledove’s gift for taking the past and resetting it into the future well. I can do that in fantasy.
But always stories, stories with hope. I can’t do Grey Goo.
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Every good story has some truth in it. This applies to stories of the past as well. It is less important to me, as the reader, to accurately retell history as it is to capture the feeling of that history and apply it to a new setting.
Larry Correia cribbed from the Dirty Dozen in the Malcontents. Wildly different storyline. Same general feeling. It just worked. You’ve got the chops to write, and write well. Maybe try it again someday?
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As Dan says.
I was brought (dragged?) up in one of those households where of an evening we sat by the stove and stories were told (Oh, how I yearned to be able to do that well, some can, some can’t and I’m the latter unfortunately – now why do we always seem to crave the very/only thing we can’t have, anyway I, typically, digress). Inspirational, aspirational, educational, advisory and warnings all, just hidden in the delicious (and preferably embellished with derring-do and blood/gore – or is that just me) adventures.
(I wonder if, not ‘causing’, civilisation itself has ‘continued’ because of stories and storytellers. We are, after all, what we are based on learning from others and the best, and often only, way to do so is through stories)
But, agree unreservedly, on the grey-goo (the lack wasn’t so much pointless to me, but seemingly actively destructive).
Mil sci-fi and Kipling for me were more of the same, and a bit of ‘how to cope’ and ‘there ‘are’ others like me, who’d have thunk it’ and ‘someone understands’.
Mil-fantasy, is that a thing? I swear it is as I buy and read so much of what I ‘think’ fits that category. Write more of that and I’ll be upsetting my bank-manager again.
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To clarify.
As a nurse I’m not allowed to watch any movie/TV show, with ‘anything’ medical in it, with the family due to (apparently) the regular winces and pfft sounds and constant muttered “that’s the wrong size/way/etc.” asides. That I (apparently) can’t stop doing the same ‘militarily’ even when reading fantasy probably says a bit too much about me (I’d rather not admit).
Look, I’m not saying I want, and would buy, FM 3-22.824 Broadsword, FM 3-22.867 Magic Wand Marksmanship, let alone FM 3-04.689 Dragon Operations (OK, I totally would!) but … a little more of the reality of combat and operations, as well as the “feelings” (preferably written by someone who knows what they are talking about) in fantasy wouldn’t go amiss.
Just saying.
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I was banned from “airplane stuff movies” for the same reason, back when I was flying and restoring WWII and later aircraft. And don’t take a historian of pre-modern naval operations to see Master and Commander in a theater. At least there weren’t many other people there for his non-stop corrections to irk.
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I am not of the medical professions… but it was interesting to listen to a 1950’s radio show (Marcus Welby?) and realize how dated it was NOT because it was a radio show at all, but because the anesthetic as then-standard/modern…. had been “obsolete” for years and years. And, no, it was NOT (diethyl) ether. Cyclopropane.
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TXRed
I think I’d pay for the privilege of watching both (from a safe distance of course – and notebook in hand).
Could I respectfully suggest you author that FM 3-04.689 Dragon Operations as I really want one.
Orvan
I still enjoy both the Herriot Vet series and Patrick Taylor’s Irish Country Doctor series, mainly I suspect, because both were written by those who trained in those very professions in the time period portrayed (and whilst seeing how so much has changed, also seeing where it came from, and just how much hasn’t).
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There’s whole assortment of environments, occupations and skills that are portrayed with gross incompetence that set me off. Almost anything martial, technical, agriculture, science related, historical… so on…
I really have to be in the right mood to turn the left side of my brain off, suspend reality and enjoy fiction. This is usually easier with books. I don’t consume much visual fiction.
There are very few exceptions with shows or movies, usually when the writers and producers aren’t lazy and show attention to details. “The Expanse” is one of the better attempts.
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It is a bit of a non-sequitir, but I have a new phrase: ” dumpster fiery.”
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In this “woke” age I read that as “dumpster fairy”.
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MHI?
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More modern day cultural.
“DEI and the dumpster fairies are destroying that company…”
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c4c
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