The Good, The Bad and the Eternal a blast from the past from 4/20/2018

Posted on by Sarah A. Hoyt

The Good, The Bad and the Eternal a blast from the past from 4/20/2018

So recently some twitter twit, of whom I’ve never heard in the whole course of my days took it upon herself to put down both John Ringo’s work and mine (I’m still not sure at all why I was pulled into this, except that I gall them by existing and not falling in line.)

Those of you who have read both of us might go “What do these two things have in common?”  I don’t know, but since this was was on a twitter thread where it was also proclaimed that we wanted people like the writer to die, you have to take it with a grain of salt.  I don’t think I’ve ever consciously desired anyone’s death, though I’ve been known to wish plagues of locusts or the like against people who are annoying me.  The person then back-peddled and said that the policies we support means people like him/her/zyr would die.  This is a puzzler.  The only policies I know of that cause people to die are derived from Marxism — 100 million and counting! — so I believe Xer was misinformed.  Maybe Syr read too fast and missed the “anti” prior to Marxist.  Or maybe the uninformed keyboard strummer really believes all that stuff about you know, not paying for contraceptives is the same as banning them.  Maybe zyr believes that if we don’t actually lovingly spoon mush into zyr’s mouth, and pay for it too we want zyr to starve..

However, it was the comment on our writing that amused me the most.  Look, I enjoy the heck out of some of Ringo’s books, but it took me a while to get into them, just because his plot structure is so different from mine.  I used a very classically ordered plot.  He doesn’t.  Took me a while to realize no, it wasn’t just formless.  And because I’m a writer, it drove me nuts, looking for the pattern, and it wasn’t until I figured out what thread he was following that I could relax and enjoy it.

It’s the same problem I had watching Japanimation with the boys.  Their concepts of story are so different from ours that on first exposure, it doesn’t fit well.

So, is John Ringo a good writer?  Uh. You know, I listened to the Black Tide series, in audio book, while fixing our previous house for sale.  We had been delayed putting it for sale because I’d had major surgery and been so ill, and we were renting elsewhere and running out of money.  On top of that everything that could go wrong did, from younger son stepping on a nail and putting it through his foot, to it raining continuously while we were doing repairs outside.

You’d think it was a depressing series to listen to, while doing that, but the thing is, as bleak as much of it is, there is a hint of unquenchable human spirit a surging tide of hope (eh) throughout the book, and you actually feel uplifted by this.

I have, for my sins, a degree in literature (actually literatures, which is a word in Portugal, because I had to study the national literature of every language I studied.  My degree is in Languages and Literatures, formally.) If you ask me if John’s work is literature, the only thing I can tell you is that it’s not “literary” which is its own separate genre and requires a certain playfulness with words, and a certain obscuring of meaning which he doesn’t bother with.

But is it literature?  Well, literature and literary have bloody nothing to do with each other.  Literature, in the sense of the stuff you study in school, is stuff that either has survived the test of centuries to speak to those yet unborn when it was written.  Yeah, there’s also modern literature and that tends to be “literary and guessing” and most of it — thank heavens– will be mercifully forgotten if not mocked by our descendants.

That contemporary stuff is picked by literature professors on very specific characteristics.  Some of it is just confusion.  Because the old stuff we study tends to have a level of opaqueness in language, (because of the time when it was written and the evolution of language) they tend to assume that opaque meaning means “literary.”  In the same way because we study the old books according to the current fads, we tend to study the old books according to the prejudices of our time: that is to say through a social-classes, struggle, anti-authority, and other Marxist distorting lens.  Thus Pride and Prejudice becomes about female oppression and money, when well… no, it wasn’t about that except very marginally and at the edges.  And what they do to Shakespeare is unforgivable.

But because we view the immortal literature through those lenses, we’ve created an entire set of books, an entire genre (and subgenres of other genres) that tries to emulate those characteristics, and is both  purposely difficult to read and, at the same time, filled with the prejudices of our time, and the cause du jour.

I am glad to report that nothing of Ringo’s I read fits in those two characteristics.

Does this make it bad?  Good Lord no.  It moves the emotions, which is what any good writer should do.  He also has an amazing amount of logic and world building buried sometimes beneath action and a few jokes.

So, am I a bad writer?  Heaven only knows.  People in general don’t seem to believe so.  Yeah, little Damian lately of the Guardian thought I was, but that’s because I a) used first person, which is apparently a “marker” of bad writing (wouldn’t a lot of immortal writers be shocked.) and b) didn’t engage in pretty-wordage.  He might have been shocked if he read my first published novel, the one which was a finalist for the Mythopoeic.

And that’s part of it.  Am I a bad writer?  Well, if you equate a certain style with “bad” I’ve written some very bad books.  If you equate a certain style with “good” I’ve written a few good ones too.

Even if you judge them as I do, as “books that are immersive and cause you to experience powerful emotions” I’ve written good and bad books, both.  Every writer does.  My favorite authors all wrote some pot boilers and then some brilliant stuff.  Our books aren’t just the product of our minds, and whatever idea we had.  They’re the product of our state at the time.  When a book is due and I’m sick, or preoccupied with something else, it’s not going to be as good as it could otherwise be.  And yet, often, those are the most successful ones.

This is why I try not to pronounce on other people’s books.  I can tell you what I don’t like and what I like, and I can say if there are factual errors in a book, or even errors of narrative (like the person who kept signaling their character was a tall male, while she was supposed to be a small female.)

Most of the time, though?  Most of the time, the worst thing I can say about a book is “I couldn’t get into it.”  If after page five I just don’t feel any reason to read on, I can’t tell you why, but the book isn’t getting a second chance.  Now, are these ever ideological?  Rarely.  Only if the politics comes at it out of place.  A long diatribe about current politics in a future book, particularly naming names, will pop me out.

But usually it’s far more subtle than that.  Usually it’s just “this just doesn’t interest me.”  And sometimes, mind you, I personally like the author as an individual.  The book just fails to interest me, and since I’ve reached the age when I’m aware my remaining reading time is finite, off it goes.

Sometimes mind you, this is situational.  I might be unable to get into a book at a time when I’m ill or stressed, then find it completely immersive three months later, when I stumble on it again.  Similarly, I might love a book, then go back 20 years later and wonder why.

So I might say things like “I haven’t read it” or “couldn’t get into it” or even “I don’t like it” or “It depressed me.”  But I rarely say “it’s a bad book” PARTICULARLY if it’s a book by someone whose ideology I despise.  Because, you know, I’m aware that they’re rubbing me wrong on the ideological front, and therefore I might not appreciate their good points, or even their great qualities.  Because I’m human.

Will some of those books I couldn’t get into go on to become immortal literature of our time?  Probably.  Statistically speaking, at least one of them should.

Don’t I feel bad about it and like I should like it?  No.  Why should I.  What I like is what I like.  What I consider good is what works on me at the moment.  Writing and story telling being such a personal art, aiming at evoking not just an emotion but a series of them in the reader, I can only tell you “this was good for me now.”  And if it works many times over years, like Heinlein or Pratchett, I’ll tell you “this is just good.”  But it’s always for me, and through my lens.

Do I have any idea what works will be immortal?  What will resonate with future generations?  Ah!  No.  I’d be surprised if at least some of Pratchett and some of Heinlein didn’t make it.  I think it’s quite likely some of Ringo will make it.  And I think it’s unlikely to the point of making me snort-giggle any of my stuff will make it.

What about the stuff the SJWs write?  Will any of it make it?

Some might.  Just because someone is objectively mistaken and in need of dried frog pills, it doesn’t mean they aren’t touched by the divine spark that makes something immortal.  An that spark makes you forgive a million bad points.

The one thing I can say for sure is that they don’t know what will make it any more than I do.  And their attempts to get people to stop reading us because we’re “objectively bad” only mark them as kindergartners, repeating what they heard teacher say, without actually understanding.

As they usually tell us about drugs and the more outre sexual explorations “How do you know you won’t like it till you try it?”

“When any government, or church for that matter, undertakes to say to it’s subjects, this you may not read, this you must not see, this you are forbidden to know the end result is tyranny and oppression, no matter how holy the motive.” – Robert A. Heinlein.

And that goes double for half-baked keyboard warriors pronouncing a holy ban on things they admit they never read.

Pfui.  Only children and savages are afraid of the written word to the point of condemning it unread.

We are given a certain time and a certain number of books that allow us to experience someone else’s mind.  Sure, a lot of those minds I won’t like, or more likely won’t interest me.

But there are minds that interest me and which are vibrant and alive in all sides of the political spectrum.  And I’d be a fool to deny myself the pleasure of those immersive books just because their authors are politically deranged.

As for trying to guess which books the future will admire, and which it will praise, and trying to read them today?  Who cares?  When that future arrives you’ll be long dead.  Do you need approval so desperately that you must have people you’ll never meet retrospectively endorse your choices?  I don’t.

The future can like what it likes.  And I can like what I like.  And if the future likes something else, that’s fine.  I doubt I’ll care.

Read.  Read whatever you like.  Enjoy what you enjoy, hate what you hate.  But do not condemn books unread, because that’s a waste of time and mind.

39 thoughts on “The Good, The Bad and the Eternal a blast from the past from 4/20/2018”

  1. Waiting patiently for your latest work to magically appear. Any day now she said what feels like many weeks ago.
    I would dig through my spam filter for a lost email, but I turned that off anticipating new works from not only you, but several other MGC alumni.
    Not to nag, but I’m very old and won’t be around for you to tease forever.
    As for John, he’s a story teller and quite accomplished at it.
    So are you, silly girl.

    Liked by 1 person

  4. My experience with John Ringo is limited to his three books in the =Monster Hunter Memoir= series. Not much character -development- but a lot of character -painted-, and one hell of a ride with a snide side of weapons porn (“Hell, doesn’t everyone have a LAW* in their trunk?”) Episodes alternating the various facets of the character’s adventure life, and more outrageous situations than a Marvel Studios movie (“Do you know how hard it is to get every question wrong on a multiple-choice test?”)

    (*Light Anti-Tank Weapon)

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    1. (“Do you know how hard it is to get every question wrong on a multiple-choice test?”)

      Speaking of Marvel, this particular item is used in the first Spider-Verse movie, as the protagonist attempts to get himself kicked out of the private boarding school his parents have sent him to. The teacher talking to him about it makes a similar observation to that of Ringo’s protagonist.

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    2. Check out his other stuff, from singles (Last Centurion) to multi-book series (Black Tide Rising, Council Wars, Legacy of the Aldenata, Paladin of Shadows, Troy Rising, Special Circumstances and Into the Looking Glass); they’re all good.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. I read Monster Hunters because of Sarah’s contribution. Otherwise wouldn’t have bothered. But I also have Black Tide Rising series, or some of them, and like those. Again. An author, I like some, I may not like others. Which means absolutely nothing about Ringo as an author.

        Liked by 1 person

  5. I have commented on John Ringo before. He is probably one of the best storytellers in SF today. Even when his stories are mediocre, he tells them so well that they are very engaging, I think he could make a cookbook enthralling. Yeah, what he writes is entertainment, that’s what I buy fiction books for. I’m not interested in books that are a lot of work to read (I know, I’m working my way through one now), which is what most English professors want to inflict on their students. Even books that make me think about the “what if” scenarios in SF can be fun and engaging.

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  6. When it comes to art, is there an objectively Good or Bad? Perhaps at the extremes – Michelangelo = Good, Hunter Biden = Bad. Of course the vast majority falls somewhere in the middle. For most of us it’s probably better to just state our preference rather than fret over good and bad. For example, I like Sarah Hoyt’s books, I do not like Ringo’s books. Yes I do kiss ass sometimes, lol.

    Liked by 1 person

  7. I have writers I always check their newer work. I don’t buy everything they write. Might buy first book of new series. But depending may or not continue to buy the series. Doesn’t mean the author writes bad stories for the first installment, or bad series. Just that series isn’t compelling me to “want more”. Ran into that with the Auel’s “Earth Children”. (Yes, there are here who stopped earlier than me.)

    Example:

    I never took the series as representative of historical representation of early humanoid history or ecology. Heck the very concept of early modern human interacting with neanderthal, beyond negative between the two branches, was unbelievable, let alone Ayla’s experience, until well after the series was completed. Auel said “what if”. Beyond that I only finished the series, “because” (seriously). I almost did not buy the last book.

    Since then I’ve read fan fiction that I liked better, because the fan fiction took the story in a different direction than Auel did. That doesn’t count dropping all the explicit sex scenes of the latter books, that I skipped reading long ago (okay, they had sex, again, big deal, get on with the story already). Let alone all the “mother earth” crap, BS stuff. (Okay. I get it. These group of humans worshiped “mother”. Big deal. What about Duric? What about the Bear Clans around them. What about ??? Almost like Auel didn’t write the last two books.)

    https://www.fanfiction.net/book/Earth-s-Children/

    YMMV

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    1. I rather liked that series. I’m not sure if I finished it. The last book I read ended with them making it over the glacier. Mammoth Hunters, perhaps?

      It’s not any more realistic than The Richard Jackson Saga. There is no way one person could have done all of that, but it makes for a fun tale.

      The trick to reading those books: Whenever Ayla is walking, skim until the descriptions and use of every single plant in sight finally ends.

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  8. I look at reading / viewing much the way I look at food. I don’t touch sushi – whether it is a slab of tuna on a plate, or prepared by a master Japanese chef. I’ll eat an indifferently cooked hamburger in preference. Similarly, I don’t touch horror, whether it is “black guy dies first, pretty blond last” or a Hitchcock classic like “The Birds.” I’ll watch a formulaic Hallmark movie instead.

    By the way, both you and John serve up some mighty fine steak dinners. Maybe not del Monico like the best Heinlein, but far, far above what I would get in a Dennys.

    Liked by 1 person

  9. “Read. Read whatever you like. Enjoy what you enjoy, hate what you hate. But do not condemn books unread, because that’s a waste of time and mind.”

    Your terms are acceptable. As long as I can find more “Rhodes Mysteries”.

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  10. Possible the best-selling game right now is a survival-style game like Ark, but with not-Pokemon instead of dinosaurs. It’s still in Early Access, but is in pretty good shape.

    And it’s being attacked all over the place.

    Like

  11. It’s official: Donald Trump just beat Nikki Haley like a rented mule for the second time in a row. Haley is not giving up, citing her progress from 8% to 44%, saying it means she’ll overtake Trump Any Day Now.

    Never mind that all her ‘progress’ came from candidates dropping out of the race, and now there’s nobody else left.

    Nikki says she’s the only Republican who can beat the Zombie Sock-Puppet in November. Huh? I think she needs a refresher course in how democracy works. Repeat after me: Trump. Got. More. Votes. Than. You. Getting more votes is how he won. Getting fewer votes is how you lost.

    She claims Trump is ‘unelectable’ because of all the ‘chaos’ and ‘controversy’ surrounding him. Impeachments and charges and trials, oh my!

    Geez, missy, if you can’t see how all that ‘chaos’ would get dumped right on your head if you managed to grab the nomination, you haven’t been paying attention for the last 8 1/2 years. If the Democrats fear you have one chance in a million to dethrone the Zombie and Cackling Kamela, they’ll make what they’re doing to Trump look like a ticker-tape parade.

    She also talked about all the $millions she’s got to spend.

    Really.

    Where did all that money come from, pray tell? Who’s funding Haley’s losing campaign? Smells like Democrat dirty money to me. What have Soros and Zuckerborg been doing lately? Withdrawing suitcases of cash, maybe?

    Meanwhile, the Democrats’ top priorities are abortion and Gaza. (Surrender Israel!)

    Not what Americans are most concerned about these days. For most folks, I doubt either topic makes the top 10. No, I suspect they’re far more concerned about Bidenflation, the Biden Open Border, the Surveillance/Censorship State, election fraud, train wrecks and plane crashes. (Who’s seen Pothole Pete lately?)

    At least, those with any sense.
    ———————————
    Candidate Joe Biden, August 2020: “We have assembled the most extensive, comprehensive and inclusive voter fraud organization in the history of American politics.”

    Minutes later: “What do you mean, I wasn’t supposed to say that?”

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    1. “Never mind that all her ‘progress’ came from candidates dropping out of the race, and now there’s nobody else left.”

      No, it came because she focused most of her time and effort on New Hampshire, and “Independents” can vote in a party primary (members of other parties cannot, however). So this was the spot where she should have won if she had any sort of chance at all. She might have gotten a boost from some voters who otherwise would have voted for other candidates. But on the other hand, she got beaten in Iowa by DeSantis. And chances are that his voters would rather vote for Trump than for Haley. Same with Vivek’s voters.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. 70% of Haley votes in New Hampshire came from voters who are not registered Republican. That indicates that among Republicans, her support in N.H. was roughly the same as it was in Iowa – 15-20%.
        She’ll probably do somewhat better in South Carolina. If she gets less than 40% in her home state she should drop out.

        Liked by 1 person

    2. There was also some rumbling about Democrats taking Rush Limbaugh’s Operation Chaos, (where Rs reregistered as Ds to vote against Hillary) and doing the same against Trump.

      I’ve seen comments in the past about Massholes “moving” to NH for the day to vote. With same-day registration, it’s built in fraud.

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      1. They do the same thing in November. Thousands of ‘voters’ register and vote, and then are nowhere to be found after the election. Biden ‘won’ New Hampshire by fewer votes than those Phantom Voters.

        Liked by 1 person

  12. Real writers, write, and having written move on to write some more. I may not like their writing, but I don’t have to read it if I don’t. Individuals who feel driven to “analyze” other writers and then tell me how I should feel about the person rather than the story are vicious, maladjusted, trolls – oops, got carried away for a second. They are misinformed about the value they bring to the world ad hominem has never been a valid argument. It’s still not a valid argument when trying to claim, “My words are better than yours.” They are words, emotional content comes from the reader, not the writer no matter what their fervent belief may be.

    You my dear cause me emotions with your stories, I thank you muchly!

    Liked by 1 person

  14. I think you’re a good writer. I discovered you with your PJMedia (I don’t think it was “PJMedia” back then) series of How to Write a Novel in 13 Weeks. It inspired me enough to try, but I did not succeed. I may try again. Since then, I’ve read most of what you’ve written.

    Did I like it all? No, but who cares? Even you – I bought them, after all. I liked enough to keep buying them. I don’t even like all of Pam’s Wine of the Gods, but I’ve read all 200 of them.

    Your John Lennon short story (something Submarine something) is brilliant – and I dislike short stories.

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    2. PJ Media is what it’s always been called. It was started by Roger L. Simon, a Hollywood writer who defected from the left, and he gave it that name in response to Dan Rather’s snarky comment about bloggers being people sitting in front of their keyboards in their pajamas.

      I found my way to his blog in the days after 9/11, back before he started PJMedia, though I think it’s been a while since I’ve read anything that he’s posted online. Both he and Neoneocon (who is also a defector from the left) are good sources of insight from people who actually thought themselves lefties before realizing (post-9/11) that their supposed fellow-travelers were far worse than they had imagined.

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  15. I like some of Ringo’s stuff. Some of it doesn’t grab me. Some of it irritates the hell out of me. It’s obvious he’s a muse writer, because there’s all sorts of side-plot hooks in his books that go absolutely nowhere, tantalizing glimpses of further story that are left to languish on the road-side as the story careens forward.

    The first time I didn’t finish a book that I’d started was in my very early twenties. In the past I’d always finished reading a book because I’d spent money on it, gosh darn it, and I was going to read the whole thing regardless of how much I didn’t like it. (This is emotionally akin to ‘eat all your food so we’re not wasting money’. If the food doesn’t taste good…) This book turned me off enough that I stopped about a quarter of the way in and took it down to the used bookstore to get as much as I could back for it.

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    1. “(This is emotionally akin to ‘eat all your food so we’re not wasting money’. If the food doesn’t taste good…)”

      Or “because there are starving children in (insert poverty stricken region du jour).”

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    2. In the past I’d always finished reading a book because I’d spent money on it, gosh darn it, and I was going to read the whole thing regardless of how much I didn’t like it.

      I remember a great quote I found on this subject (unfortunately, I don’t remember by whom):

      “That was when I had my epiphany. Just because I had wasted my money buying this book didn’t mean that I had to waste my time reading it.”

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    3. I get a lot of my books through BookBud at discounts. Free to $0.99 – $1.99, at best. I will pay for books from certain authors that are on discount for $2.99 – $3.99, that I wasn’t willing to pay full price for ($14.99 or greater for ebooks). I can wait. This gives me the ability to start, pause, read something else, eventually get back to whatever, either get into reading the book (it happens), or skim through to the end. Some of these books were 3 book series volume for $0.99.

      Liked by 1 person

  16. I really like that BookBub occasionally lists anthologies in my selected genres that are on special offer for $0.99 or $1.99. I just finished one that was over 2700 pages and included thirteen authors, many of whom I already liked and a few new-to-me that I will watch for in the future. Without BB I would never be aware of these bargains.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Regarding Bookbud. 100% Anthologies bargains that I find new authors. Large groupings of first book of series, where I find new authors. Win. Win. Gotten a few “meh” but not the fault of the authors. Just not for me.

      Liked by 1 person

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