YOU EXPECT TO BE PAID FOR THIS?!?!?! by Foxfier
I’m fairly sure we’re all familiar with the drumbeat of how newspapers are dying. It’s so expensive to print, people just aren’t buying, the websites are a sunk cost that never pays back on advertising no matter how obnoxious they make the ads or how difficult they make it to see a story without paying ahead of time….
What they generally do not point out is that the reason people aren’t buying the news papers is that they decided to cut costs by not doing any reporting.
Now, I really shouldn’t pick on newspapers exclusively. They are the most famous, but at this point probably not even the most common. This same issue shows up in information websites and even some blogs, although blogs are more likely to tell you where they got their information from, even if they don’t actually link it and might get the name wrong. Newspapers, you’re lucky to get a name that you can trace back and figure out that they are the spokesman–or sometimes one man founder, operator, and primary beneficiary of spending– for RELEVANT ACTIVIST GROUP, LLC, and the half-quoted statement is on their website.
My grandmother was a reporter, and my parents are down right obnoxious, so I always got told to go dig for the rest of the story. Or that if you couldn’t make an argument against a position, you were too ignorant to make an argument for it.
That, incidentally, is quite true. It is a variation on the observation made famous in Chesterton’s Fence, that if you cannot explain why a gate is there, you should not remove it.
Now, looking for cures to this– try to track down the source of a story. Figure out if your news is doing its job.
Sometimes this is relatively easy.
Say, banned books, including the “banning” of Maus. The Professor handled the specific banned book display in her article, so I’ll explain what I did with Maus.
You saw the story, probably, or at least the story about it being “international news” that “Tennessee” had “banned Maus.”
That sounded improbable, so I went digging…couldn’t find anything about what had actually been done.
Eventually went looking for what school or city had done so, which led me to the actual minutes of the schoolboard meeting, as well as some comments by parents in various local publications. Those told me the problems were switching contracted curriculum providers, a large jump in cost, that Maus was neither great material for 13 year olds (duh, it’s aimed at adults, that was the selling point) nor suitable as the sole document for teaching about WWII, and parents were upset because it violated the recent law that they got to see the curriculum.
Anyone reading here surprised to hear that the overview was heavy on fiction, and big-name publishers? Kind of thing that makes me wish we had some reporters to go actually report on why the curriculum was changed, and how the new one was selected, and how they plan to deal with that liiiiittttle bitty legal issue…..
So, that’s one that bites the left– how about one on reporting that bites the right?
We’re all familiar with the Adderall shortage, right?
Well, a trusted online magazine stated that the shortage was due to the FDA limiting the production of Adderall. (In spite of their links all being internal, they do generally have useful information.)
Cue the obvious grumbling about is there anything they can’t screw up.
That sent me looking for a primary source for the claim, which ended up at Reason Magazine, which claimed that their source for the FDA/DEA limiting the production of Adderall to meet demand was supported by a link. That link went to the Federal Register, specifically the one for dealing with precursors for manufacturing drugs. Seeing that, and knowing something about how “a bureaucrat did it” is extreme shorthand, figured that only activists had commented on the document and had pushed through a stupid reduction. Following the rules, example of folks failing to use the tools we have to leash the Feds, etc.
I was wrong.
Not about someone not doing their job, but about who isn’t doing their job.
The document records that the folks worried about not being able to get their Adderall type medication went and commented during the comment period, yadda yadda, the DEA took their comments (short version: WE CANNOT GET OUR MEDICATION, FIX IT) and went to talk to the manufacturers.
To quote:
The majority of the manufacturers contacted by DEA and/or FDA have responded that they currently have sufficient quota to meet their contracted production quantities for legitimate patient medical needs. According to DEA’s data, manufacturers have not fully utilized the APQ for amphetamine in support of domestic manufacturing, reserve stocks, and export requirements for the past three calendar years 2020, 2021 and 2022.
In English, the last three years they haven’t used the amount that was made.
In spite of that, they did nothing to the amount made…which is oddly sane, considering government.
Well, that makes for the obvious question: are these manufacturers stupid? Do they not like money? Why isn’t the drug being made?
Turns out the University of Utah has a site for that, ASHP dot org slash DRUG SHORTAGES.
They have a current page for the Adderall type drugs, which has a Reason Why section.
As of the time I clicked on that link, most of the manufacturers “did not provide a reason.” Mallincrodt “refuses to provide availability information”. A few were only filling contracts, a few had stopped making the drug that was under shortage, Sandoz was prioritizing filling existing orders and Tris Pharma had tablets and suspensions available.
Searching for company names got me one “we’re working to meet demand” and a bunch of “manufacturing delays,” and one I found a third party news story I’ve now lost that said they literally couldn’t get the stuff to package their drugs. Several more are “reorganizing” to deal with worker shortages.
So, the problem wasn’t “the FDA reduced how much precursor they were allowed to make, a year or two after shortages started.” It was, the manufacturers not making enough.
(Which can very easily roll into getting manufacturing back state side, and trying to identify if there’s specific problems there we can fix, but will absolutely not be improved by getting mad at the people who did not reduce the amount that has already not been used, and sadly has very little chance of getting used barring a miracle of manufacturing managing to burn through three years of backlogged extra and the reserve stocks for this year.)
Well, people not doing the job and wanting to be paid as if they did has branched out from reporting to manufacturing. How about something closer to home?
SHOP LOCAL!
Really, who doesn’t love ma’n’pop shops, which we all know are dying off because evil department stores uh walmart uh amazon uh… you get the idea.
Don’t we read it in the news all the time?
…well… what happens when you ask someone why they didn’t shop locally?
As it happens, I have someone to ask right here!
Foxfier! Why don’t you shop locally?
Well, I try.
There was a local “Five and Dime,” which of course was more expensive than even the mall in town but was right here, so I worked to make a family ritual of taking each kid to the store and they got to choose one cool thing on their birthday. With a half dozen kids, this was a pretty big investment.
Then kung flu happened, and they not only required masks, they banned children. While their 14 year old relative ran the register.
After things reopened, they kept masks, until about a year and change after everyone else had moved on, they had a big GOING OUT OF BUSINESS sale. At which point they had weekly five-ten percent jumps in the discount…and if you kept your eye on some items, you noticed that the price tag on them went up 10-15% with each discount jump.
K, well, that’s just one. How about the hardware store?
They’re actually really good, price on lumber is quite reasonable even if you’re not a builder with a discount, although we bought out their entire stock of spare keys for our primary vehicle. I got two made. It’s one of the most common key varieties in the area.
Maybe mechanics?
The small engine guy that can do stuff is booked, and the one that is at the auto parts store can’t find a part when you bring a print-out with the specific part on it. And if you bring it in, they’ll probably charge you as if they ordered the part. Although they refund if you ask with enough force.
The one automotive shop we found that claimed they could work on our vehicle…well, short version, heater still didn’t work and after them neither did the vent. The oil shop chain that was good to us when we first moved here and had an emergency identified that the AC controller module was halfway burnt out. They fixed it in three hours. Apparently the guys who specialized in vehicles like ours couldn’t figure that out, in a few weeks.
Home repairs! There’s something that’s obvious.
Well… we needed a shutoff valve. Because the water department declared that the one that was there was not their responsibility, but we needed to actually have a whole-house shutoff.
I got two disconnected numbers, one private number, three answering machines and one call back two weeks after I’d given up, called a regional chain, and they went “Well…technically you’re outside of our range. But I know that we have a plumber that lives in your town, and he takes his truck home with him every night, are you open to an on-call with him?” and put in the shutoff.
Do I know anybody who does their job?
Well, a few, yes.
My mom’s sister and her husband ran a paint and photography shop, and for years their place was kept in the black because they had an Amazon account.
The little old ladies, and the folks who wanted to order Amazon but didn’t want to have it possibly misdelivered, went to them– she’d order it, charge them an appropriate amount, and go along merrily.
A few farm supply stores that also try to make it easy to give them money. “No, we can’t get that, but let me be a subject expert and see about ordering it.”
Heck, the thing I like best about our state is that the traffic cops actually do their job— and so folks know that turn signals, following distance, and rules of the road EXIST!
According To Hoyt 
Aaand I completely forgot to mention the “copy and mildly rephrase the AP or Reuters feed, sometimes with a local byline” thing– same phrase showing up in all the stories is how you identify that.
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Gad, I hate that. There’s something you want to know more about, but the entire internet seems to hold nothing but copies of the exact same thing that tripped your “now wait just a darn minute…” alarms in the first place.
There are things I’ll dig for, but most questions aren’t worth the time it’d take to get past that mountain of garbage to a real answer. So I guess if the aim is to obscure truth and facts (and even if not an aim but a side effect), blanket coverage via the wire services is a tactic that can do a pretty effective job.
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The funny thing is, I started this as a rant about that.
Especially the stories where someone abuses a thesaurus and spawns a whole new storyline because “almost the same thing” is not “the same thing.”
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A small peeve on reporting, or lack thereof.
For various reasons, I follow a lot of court cases in My Special Interest Area. (No, not a lawyer. Masochist, maybe.)
And whenever a ‘news’ story mentions some action in one of those cases, nowhere is there included the names of the parties or the court in which this is being handled. Lawyer names, judge names, politician names, sure. Never ‘Smith v Jones, Lane County Circuit Court’.
It’s nice that many stories include the email address of the ‘reporter’, and sometimes those folks actually answer – but on court cases, severe misunderstanding, as well as purposeful lies, is pretty much the rule.
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Oh, gads, yes.
Sometimes you can pick out the stuff….
Like, remember the “DOE SWAT team hit a guy for his estranged wife’s unpaid student loan”?
That case did eventually end.
It was a student loan fraud ring, as part of a broader organized crime activity, they did identity theft as well as fraudulent loans for a cut, run out of that house. Pretty standard cartel stuff.
And it was a DoE warrant, since that’s who investigates student loan fraud.
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Which was already going on in the late seventies when I tried on advanced placement journalism, and ran screaming.
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There used to be AP and UPI… but yeah, not so much now.
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I was in J school in the early 70s, at a school with an excellent College of Journalism. Mispelling a name was an automatic fail, more spectacular errors or misleading articles could get you tossed.
Told the story of my News Reporting class in yesterday’s comments, but the gist was, the lab was taught by a real reporter, not a professor and he was not there to teach us to Make a Difference, or Change the World, he was there to teach us how to write a competent newspaper story. Probably much harder to find one of those now.
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Late seventies….. And Europe, so possibly a few steps ahead of here.
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I guess that replaced stories coming in on “the wire.”
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Same thing, just digital…and they send folks who don’t speak the local languages to report at the freaking Vatican…. (one of the early Pope Frank messups, turned out the reporter didn’t speak the language, and hadn’t shown up anyways.)
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Based upon my observations, I believe turn signals exist for two reasons. 1. They are there to serve as a distraction for the drivers behind you while you barrel straight down the expressway for dozens of miles at a time before changing lanes in the direction away from the turn signal. 2. Alternatively, they serve as a signal to the idiot behind you that they should to speed up to twice the speed limit, and then illegally pass using either the center turn lane or the opposing travel lane, narrowly avoiding a collision as they swerve back into your lane ahead of you.
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Every once in a while, someone will surprise you; I’ve actually had people respond to a turn signal by giving me space to do it safely. Then again, on my recent trip to Utah, I (re)discovered that many people in that state think a turn signal means “speed up and cut me off.”
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That has a counterpart: “Adequate following distance” = “duck into the lane in front of me without a signal”.
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Do it in a full size passenger van. Utah lane changes, I mean.
My husband didn’t believe me until he tried it himself.
Utahans move back and let the van in.
Best we figured they’re terrified the van is driven by their aunt, she’ll tell her bishop, and her bishop’s going to Have Words with them about it.
It’s wild: all of a sudden the entire state’s drivers know what a turn signal means and are polite and accomadating.
Of course, take the van to Vegas and the casinos give you free parking because it’s too tall for the parking garage . . . we’ve learned some interesting things since getting the van.
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Actually, I chiefly notice as “You can pull out because I’m turning into that street.”
And so am annoyed by people who don’t turn them on before it’s impossible for me to pull out.
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I’m sufficiently paranoid that even when a turn signal is on, I wait until the driver commits to the turn before taking off. It’s not often the case that the signal was accidentally on, but it’s happened just often enough to tweak my sense of survival. YMMV.
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100%
Heck, when cross traffic is approaching a light, with no one stopped at the cross traffic in front of them. My light has just turned green. I not only hesitate my second or two, but make sure that incoming cross traffic is actually slowing down. Too many times I’ve seen someone run a very solid red light. Either that or the traffic lights weren’t working and everyone had a green light (not likely). I learned that lesson 35+ years ago. Was stopped at a left turn (protected green). Light turns green. Standard hesitation. Kill the car (stick, forgotten to put in in first on stopping, which I rarely did). Just as I’ve gotten it started and in gear to pull out, here comes this car out of of nowhere, and runs the red light. My turn light is still solid green. If I hadn’t killed the car, the other car would have slammed into me. In this case (at 6AM, in the dark) I probably wouldn’t have seen it coming anyway. But lesson learned.
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Turn signals are flags waved before bulls.
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The drug one is interesting. I was a lab rat on a double-blind study for three weeks of a drug; drug with extended release, and placebo. Somebody I worked with said he could tell when I was on the real McCoy. Later on, I tried to get on that drug, but my insurance only covered the generic, which seemed to overspeed my heart so I quit taking it after three days.
Being a human lab rat pays pretty good, by the way, or it did that one time for me.
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Our local thrift store (they give their proceeds to a raptor rescue) had a big “no children” sign up when they opened during covid and for at least a year, maybe more. It made me so angry. As if people can just leave small children at home when they go somewhere. Particularly young parents who NEED to shop at the thrift store.
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Nah. Just leave your small children in the car, with the doors locked, and the engine running, windows up in the 100 degree heat.
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Turn on the Sarcasm Tag, already.
Random drop by, cough FBidiot, IdiotSomeone might think you are serious.LikeLike
So does your experience, Foxfier, relate to our hostess’ column the other day on the general lack of competence? My preferred mechanic is good (as far as I can tell), but is backed up a week or two. When it’s an oil change, it’s no big deal; when it’s a starter, that’s a problem. That’s why offspring #2 and I did the alternator Friday night.
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Pretty much the same problem from a different angle.
Especially when they DO get paid for not doing the job.
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The local auto shop my dad’s been going to since he moved to our valley 40 years ago has been two weeks behind for a year – staffing shortage. They’d be fine if they could just get one more guy who isn’t a pothead, clocks in on time, and was willing to be trained.
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A good mechanic is worth his weight in gold.
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Was out late in the afternoon, looked down at the dashboard to discover my temp was at max. Discovered I had no water in radiator. Called my trusty mechanic. (I was about 2 miles away.) Don’t move, have AAA tow you. It was going to be after 5 by the time I got there, he said don’t worry,” I have a guy with who will stay and give you a ride home.” True story. I have taken my cars to them for over 40 years. This in the heart of Mordor West.
Mordor West also has the best doughnut shop. Stans, on Homestead Rd in Santa Clara. People line up to buy doughnuts. Fresh. A hot glazed where the glaze still drips. Family owned for more than 50 years. Then go across the street to watch park workers hose off the goose poop from around the duck pond. Signs say don’t feed the ducks, but the ducks know who will slip them a few slices of bread.
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Here’s one mildly apropos, the Dragon Award nominees are out… and fully captured by the Usual Suspects.
When we do it, that’s an evile racist Nazi slate. When they do it, well, that’s just quality you know.
Monomaniacs persist when everyone else has lost interest and moved on. That’s the source of much of our discontent.
Speaking of Big Media, I see that Warner is getting ready to sell Simon & Schuster to a “private equity” firm KKR. Because we’re seeing a lot of “wait, they PAID you for this?!” books out of S&S, see Dragon Award nominees for elucidation.
And again speaking of Big Media, in the midst of both a writer’s strike and an extended bombing campaign, Disney has formed a section devoted to using AI for content production. So we can look forward to lots of “deepfaked” robot extras and motion-capture animation NPCs in Disney movies, and even more cut-and-paste dialog than what we’re currently getting.
As an aside, I finally saw a trailer for the third Guardians of the Galaxy movie. Speaking as a Marvel fan who has gobbled up every single thing since Iron Man and gone to the theater for the initial run, sometimes opening night… I’m not even going to rent that turkey. When it finally comes out on Netflix or Prime streaming, maybe then I’ll fast-forward through most of it to get the non-awful parts. Maybe.
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“Here’s one mildly apropos, the Dragon Award nominees are out… and fully captured by the Usual Suspects.”
Sooprise, Sooprise, Sooprise.
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Maybe it’s time for a reprise of ‘Sad Puppies’ — but with a twist. ‘Sad Pit Bulls’, anyone? :-D
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“Sad Kzinti Kittens” might work, aside from the little copyright problem.
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‘Sad Treekittens’! :-D
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Ask Mr Weber what his licensing fee is.
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Dear Larry. Can we borrow a baker’s dozen Kzinti?
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Partial names or full?
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IF you do it, keep it to mailing lists or curated groups.
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Not sure about the usual suspects. I see Larry Correia is in twice, once for the novel Tower of Silence and one for the cover art. (marked on my buy list) And Puss in Boots: Last Wish (which I loved)
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Puss in Boots : Last Wish was great. I had so much fun watching it.
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Cedar’s not a usual suspect.
6. Best Illustrative Cover
Ashes of Man by Kieran Yanner
River of Ashes by Sam Shearon
But Not Broken by Cedar Sanderson
Titan Mage: Apocalypse by Jackson Tjota
Tower of Silence by Kurt Miller
Wraithbound by Jeff Brown
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https://www.dragoncon.org/awards/2023-dragon-award-ballot/
I haven’t read anything I see yet, but looking for names I recognize outside of politics, then besides Cedar there’s Timothy Zahn, Larry Correia, T. Kingfisher, Honor Among Thieves (wow, a D&D movie that doesn’t hate D&D), Hogwarts Legacy….
Some obvious big push stuff, but not completely captured by any means.
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I amend my statement from “fully captured ” to “mostly captured, with a few unconquerable paladins still in it to win it.” ~:D
I admit I stopped reading after I saw Mary of the Three Names so I didn’t get all the way down to Cedar.
Clearly only there as part of a Sad Puppies slate, no way could they be award-worthy. /sarc/
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I don’t think a ballot with five Baen nominees qualifies as “captured”. I’d say it’s still in the game. And the surest way to lose a game is to stop playing.
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I disagree. The -surest- way to lose is to play the game with people who cheat.
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No they’re not. I mean, yes, they’re out, but if you’re saying that Larry Correia (nominated for Best Fantasy Novel), Chuck Gannon (likewise), and Brandon Sanderson (also likewise) is “the usual suspects” then I have to wonder who you think the usual suspects ARE.
Likewise, go vote for Cedar Sanderson, who is a finalist for “best cover” and ONE OF US.
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That’s on us. Eventually my life will get to the point where I can push the nominees.
We ARE all allowed to do this! It’s good for everyone.
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Lots of people have mentioned Larry Correia and Cedar Sanderson appearing among the nominess. I’ll also mention Timothy Zahn, who is absolutely incapable of writing a bad book. And who, thankfully, got nominated in a different category from Correia so I was able to vote for both.
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For clarification:
Is the Mary nominated for Best SF Novel the ‘Mary Three Names’ whom I have seen references to in these pages?
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Yes
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I had an idea.
The Democrats can have their ‘student loan forgiveness’ — IF they take the money straight out of the Department Of Education’s budget, where it’s just being wasted anyway.
45 years, over 2 TRILLION dollars, and the public schools are much worse than they were in 1977. Time, and past time, to put a stake through the DOE and chop its head off. Probably should burn the remains, too, just to be sure.
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There are forms of stupidity that businesses can’t indulge in. There are no such limitations on the stupidity of government.
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Look, for real, we should JUST forgive loans. I don’t know who is served by having doctors in debt indenture that means they can’t be free or have opinions that differ from the state, but it’s not us.
Lawyers too.
As for “lawyers and doctors, reee. Rich.”
Dudes, the doctors and lawyers from rich families didn’t take loans. Those who did are the strivers. And for the first 10 to 15 years of working after about 12 years training, they make less per hour than your average retail worker.
And most of them NEVER make millions. Most of them NEVER pay off their inflated loans.
Below that? Way worse.
“But they signed up for it!” Sure. And when people are scammed with full approval of society, we blame the ones who were scammed, right? Most colleges are scams these days.
Let the kids go. Don’t let the dems score points on this.
Yeah, “ruinous.” Is it? Biden is piling on more debt than that. This is meaningless.
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Can’t agree. The loan aren’t forgiven, they’re passed on to us, the taxpayers.
You make a contractual agreement, stupid or not, you carry out your end of the agreement.
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The Reader agrees but thinks they should be discharge-able in bankruptcy.
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Yep, most definitely.
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That’s for one. For another, these are kids, and the institutions used to be good or semi good. It’s not their fault it all went to hell in 10 years. THEIR PARENTS TOLD THEM THEY WERE GOOD.
I think you guys, honestly, are imagining the colleges as not total scams.
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As I said below, the whole system of college financing has been a scam for 40 years or more.
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The Reader clearly understands colleges are total scams. He advocates burning them to the ground and sowing salt in the ashes (nuking them from orbit has implications for areas around them). He’d like to see a change to the existing ones to make them dischargeable in bankruptcy.
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I’d like to see that too. I’d also like taxpayers to take money from the colleges. Sowing salt on the ruins optional.
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Adults at 18.
Not children, other than in the lineage sense.
Responsible, in other words.
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Adults at 18.
Not children, other than in the lineage sense.
Responsible, in other words.
Cool, start with making the loans recognize that in formation– which would be a major change– and it’ll be relevant.
Can’t have it both ways.
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“children” in the sense of no experience, rely on parents’ guidance.
we’re guilty. No argument.
And no, mine were 16 at entrance.
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No. It was a scam. We punish scammers, not the people who con them into a contract. Too bad so sad you can’t agree. And yet, you position is neither ethical nor sane. Sorry.
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But we, the overtaxed productive members of society, didn’t scam them. Why should we be punished? I’m all for punishing the politicians, bureaucrats and colleges that set up the scam and profited from it, but so far all the ‘loan forgiveness’ proposals merely extend the scam to rip off people who had nothing to do with it. The Leftroids get another avenue to take money from their political enemies and give it to their cronies and sycophants.
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The government can mandate stupidity, but they can’t make it not be stupid.
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You act like your taxes are related to what the left is doing? They’re just spending. it’s not related to anything. This one at least would be meritorious.
I think the schools should be made to pay for it, yes. But of course, nothing will happen until the shooting starts.
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The money doesn’t even go to the Poor Indebted College Graduates, it’s paid to the loan sharks that were part of the scam. How is that ethical or sane?
The colleges got paid up front for degrees they had made worthless. They don’t even pretend to help the kids find jobs any more. Time was, a college’s reputation depended on how well its graduates did in real life. Now it’s how many Woo-Woo Studies graduates and ‘activists’ they can crank out.
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Why do so many idiots believe that our problems will be solved by the same shitheads that caused them?
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“But of course, nothing will happen until the shooting starts.”
As with so many things. And some of us have been saying that.
The Constitution is a restraining order on government. How effective are restraining orders in stopping abusers, without lethal force and the willingness to use it instantly on the abuser? We left it too long, and now we’re backed into a corner.
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See my answer to Imagos. Right now refusing to forgive the loans is supporting the colleges. None of you seem to realize this, I guess because you don’t have kids or the kids are much older, but the only way — THE ONLY way– you can suspend paying the loans, until the covidiocy, is to be enrolled half time. it doesn’t matter in what.
So, what we’re doing is funneling more money to the colleges.
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Sarah, I don’t have a problem with forgiving the loans; I just want the scammers, the colleges, to have to repay it from their endowments and / or govt appropriations (without increasing them).
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In other words, a few hundred billion less to spend on woke.
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Heck, just forgiving the loans stops the spigot down the rat hole. The reason enrollments went down 15% is because payments were suspended.
On top of which the dumb bunny republicans are POSTURING their virtue while enabling this and letting the democrats buy votes without having to do anything. Just say they WANT to forgive loans. (They’ll never do it, if allowed. EVER. Because the universities are their pets and they’re keeping the universities fed.)
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Apparently there’s no way of doing it from endowments. But I want audits, lawsuits, etc, and taking it out of them. ABSOLUTELY.
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Sarah, I think you can take them out of the endowments. Have the state courts try them for fraud and the sentence is to pay the fine from their endowments (and/or the personal funds of the board of trustees and executive officers).
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Unless the whole loan complex goes away merely “forgiving” current loans won’t help.
Tuition costs have inflated faster than inflation because of the loan structure. Back in the day it actually was possible to get a degree without loans. I managed to finish my degree with GI Bill and ROTC pay (which back then wasn’t much) while living at home. And was able to get a master’s nights using GI Bill while married with a kid.
The colleges/universities see the loan situation and think that gives them the ability to increase tuition without limit, and increase admin staff and overhead. And pay professors to have TAs teach.
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It will largely go away. The Covidiocy turned a lot of people away from colleges.
But if they have to go back to avoid paying, it only keeps going.
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Also, stop trying to put the paste back in the tube. That money was spent/wasted. Now you’re going to do what? keep people who can’t pay indentured their entire lives — needing government assistance when they’re older — to pay for being scammed? You’re going to distort all of society and destroy the professions to…. take vengeance on them for believing what EVERYONE was telling them? Well done you.
In addition, you’re supporting the universities more. Stop staring at me. Enrollment has fallen recently because payments were suspended. It will go up as soon as payments restart. One way not to pay is to be enrolled at least half time in a university until you’re sixty when it’s all forgiven. So, you want to …. keep them enrolled, taking whatever, supporting beardo the weirdo, until they’re old enough to retire.
Look, there is no part of this system that is right, okay?
As for “taxpayers” well, they theoretically elected the government that created this bullshit. They also btw are the people who require a BA to be hired in retail. Because of other government bullshit.
But this is all the kids’ fault, somehow?
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You’re not going to hurt the colleges; they got paid up front. All that lovely ‘loan forgiveness’ money will go to the Democrats’ cronies, the loan sharks that were part of the scam. And one way or another, we will have to pay it through higher taxes or higher inflation. Or both.
AOC still hasn’t paid off a $40,000 college debt, despite being paid over $600,000 of our tax money.
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…where do you imagine the interest and payments go now?
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No. But it will stop the the money going to them more. Seriously.
Again, the way to stop paying is to go back in half time. It’s what a LOT of people are doing.
Also, I don’t care if some democrats also get forgiven.
There’s people hurting out there, who aren’t.
And we shouldn’t be pushing them to the other side, either. Look at what BGE said. Sunken costs. Done.
Now free people from their thrall, please.
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At least insist on forcing an end to the scam. No more student loans from the government, no government ‘guarantees’, no bankruptcy exclusions. Student loans are just ordinary loans. If banks don’t want to take the risk, toughski shitski. Have the colleges fund their own student loan programs, and take the hit if those loans aren’t paid back because the degrees are worthless.
———————————
Today, every child in America is born $139,000 in debt.
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Oh, ABSOLUTELY that.
Look, I’d prefer to crucify every one involved in the mess along the highways.
I’ll settle for shutting them down and suing them into irrelevancy.
BUT we MUST free the kids. Some of these kids are now 40 and they can’t live as adults.
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But note this is not what I want to do. It’s ‘where can we start?’
Because the enemy gets a vote, damn them.
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100% the above.
The problem with when loans were able to be discharged in bankruptcy, even government guarantied ones the banks wouldn’t make the student loans. My response is “AND?” My sisters and my loans were interest deferred (for 6 months after graduation or quitting), and parent guarantied. Trust me. Every single time the payment did not get there in time mom and dad got a letter (check and mailed in) and we got a call. Every single time. Got so I was mailing in the next months check just after the prior month was due. Only way I could guaranty the dang thing got there through the mail in time. Then there was the letter about not getting the payment three months after we’d paid off the balance. Computer oops. Bet your bottom dollar I was on the phone to the loan servicing giving me a piece of my mind. With a newborn screaming in the background. (Not like I was in the best frame of mind. Lack of sleep.) What could the poor help desk do other than say “yes ma’am, right on it ma’am, taking care of it ma’am, will send out an apology letter to your parents ma’am”.
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Almost all student loans are federal, 92% from a quick search. So we’re talking about writing off money owed to the feds (I’d say ‘us’, but come on now, whatever gets paid back will go into the big pot of swamp pork). Sources differ, but some say that the feds are losing money administering these. This is more likely as they keep putting of payment, because that’s how they keep their leverage – “Vote for us, and we’ll forgive them (wink)”
Some interesting history of University run financial aid:
Click to access 9780195322972_07.pdf
Short version is the Ivies collude to lie about the financial aid they offer, against tuition prices that they set themselves, as part of a 1992 federal consent decree.
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Precisely. It’s already sunk costs.
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Uh…it’s not forgiven at 60. Indeed, they GARNISH your social security to pay, if you are in default. And garnish even more if you have any other retirement plan. So pay until you DIE.
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Grrrrrr.
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I think that student debt should be forgiven. By which I mean that the colleges should agree to eat the unpaid amounts of the monies they decided to advance to their students.
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I am not sane? Disagree.
If you feel you wronged someone, make amends to them. If you want help, ask. But morally you cannot demand the police power of the state to force disinterested folks to aid those you think you wronged. That would be the polar opposite of the freedom /liberty way.
Rather shocked at your view.
Punish the guilty, sure. Punish bystanders because you regret a choice? No.
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No one’s called you crazy. But to demand that a plurality of the younger generations – having been lied to, and then defrauded, often before age 18 – cannot, must not, be relieved of unjust obligation, even in bankruptcy! – not a reasonable policy.
This NEED NOT HARM anyone else! Writing off a debt doesn’t mean that we have to raise taxes, or cut programs (though we should anyway). There’s ~$1.5 trillion in federally held student loans, and again, ballpark, at least 1/3 are unlikely to be repaid (didn’t finish, already delinquent, etc). Our ‘representatives’ (spit!) blow through that much unfunded debt in a quarter.
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PRECISELY. They will spend it, anyway. On stupider things.
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I will explain. But it’s not punishing.
It’s stopping the government owning people. Which is what we have now.
Look at what BGE said. It’s already a sunk cost. The money is GONE.
Feeding more to the universities, which is what people are doing to suspend payments is NOT sane. I’m not saying you. I’m saying what we’re doing.
You’re shocked because you haven’t seen the elephant. I’m going to try to get the post together by Monday.
NO ONE IS PUNISHED. The money is spent. It’s already a loss. NO ONE has to be taxed for it. Also all your money you’ll pay in your lifetime was already given to the Taliban.
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Much better to have a bunch of debt slaves to the government, amirite?
Besides, I’d love to hear how this gets to the taxpayers. Especially once a loan has stewed for a bit and the cascading interest and penalties take over.
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People have this idea that if a government issued loan doesn’t get paid by the borrower, the feds are somehow obligated to pay for it themselves out of some other pot of money.
Probably because they think that federal budgets work like their own household budget does.
They don’t realize that these student loans are assets to the government, not liabilities.
And no-one wants to listen when you tell them that.
… I mean, I wouldn’t put it past the feds to try “raising taxes to pay for the outstanding student loans”, because they are just that greedy, but it would be a lie just like every other thing the feds ever say.
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Umm. I am a great believer that loans should be repaid, but I’m afraid the notion that the taxpayers will be stuck is not really true. It’s a sunk cost, it’s already been paid for. The vast majority of student loans are held as an “asset” at the Dept. of Education. Student Loan interest had been the third largest source of govt revenue after income taxes and mortgage interest.
Still, I’m afraid that it could be wiped out with the stroke of a pen and not have any cash effect at all since the bureaucracy needed to administer it eats up the proceeds. I suppose the bureaucracy won’t go away — it seldom does — but, and a I hate to open myself up to the accounting absolutists, government accounting is just BS. Most accounting is just BS. Cash matters, cash flow matters, the rest is mostly BS.
This is actually quite close in spirit to the article we’re commenting on. A lot of this stuff has no real existence. It’s all just BS.
Next we’ll do the jobs report or the incipient banking crisis caused by the FRB madly pushing deposits inter banking system, which then bought hugely expensive treasuries because there aren’t any compelling loan candidates.
Or maybe China where you now go to jail if you mention the economic situation in anything but glowing terms. Mao, Mao, Mao has been replaced by Xi, Xi, Xi.
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In this case I’m not a believer loans should be repaid, because the people who borrowed thought they were getting something else. There’s already law for this.
And yeah, I know it’s sunk cost.
Also again, what no one sees is that this is causing people to stay enrolled half time (Not my kids, thank heaven, and we have plans. They’re stupid plans, but they’re ours.) JUST to suspend the loans.
The fall off in enrollment will be reversed the minute people have to pay again. Because it’s all they can do. Pour money and effort down the rathole. That’s why all the universities have had record enrollment in bad times.
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Make them the same as any other loan– stop giving the colleges a special deal where debt to THEM has a higher bar for bankruptcy– and put it in the same bill as audits on colleges, including looking for conspiracy to prevent graduation, say by not offering required classes.
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Why, exactly, the REPUBLICANS did this is very, very interesting — start with who held the loans then and who holds them now,
A good chunk of my career has been driven by unintended consequence of changes in the bankruptcy code, here and abroad, mostly bad for me, frankly, but it makes things interesting. The history of bankruptcy can be quite fascinating for what it reveals about a society.
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???
Wasn’t that part of the Bankruptcy Reform Act of 1978?
https://www.congress.gov/bill/95th-congress/house-bill/8200
Which was sponsored by 4 Ds and 2 Rs, and passed by the 95th Congress.
Looking at that congressional profile on the House website’s archive:
95th Congress (1977–1979)
Congressional Profile
Total Membership:
435 Representatives
3 Delegates
1 Resident Commissioner
Party Divisions:*
292 Democrats
143 Republicans
Congress Overview
The Democrats retained control of Congress and won the presidency in the 1976 elections. Thomas P. “Tip” O’Neill of Massachusetts succeeded Speaker Carl Albert of Oklahoma following his retirement in 1977. But despite their one-party control of the federal government, Democrats failed to pass President Jimmy Carter’s comprehensive energy program. The 95th Congress (1977–1979) produced only stop-gap energy legislation. Congress reformed the process for low- and middle-income bank loans, deregulated the airline industry, and added more than 150 federal judgeships.
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:pokes some more:
Some sites say that it was changed earlier, to quote:
That ended in 1976 when Congress amended the Higher Education Act of 1965.
In Section 439A of the Act, Congress made student loans nondischargeable in bankruptcy unless:
More than five years have passed since you entered repayment or
Not discharging the loans would cause you and your dependents an undue hardship.
Two years later, Congress passed the Bankruptcy Code. In the years since, Congress has retooled the law to further limit a debtor’s ability to file student loan bankruptcy.
That would put it at the 94th congress.
94th Congress (1975–1977)
Congressional Profile
Total Membership:
435 Representatives
3 Delegates
1 Resident Commissioner
Party Divisions:*
291 Democrats
144 Republicans
*Party division totals are based on election day results.
Congress Overview
Democrats made huge electoral gains in the House and expanded their Senate majority following the 1974 elections in the aftermath of the Watergate scandal and President Richard Nixon’s resignation. The 94th Congress (1975–1977) passed a $22.8 billion tax cut in an effort to stimulate a depressed economy. Congress authorized President Gerald R. Ford, the former House Minority Leader, to deal with energy emergencies. Facing military defeat in the region, Congress refused the President’s request for additional funding for South Vietnam.
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There was a loophole that actually allowed many student loans to be discharged in bankruptcy, first was “undue hardship”. Everyone had undue hardship, basically. Graduates of Harvard Law and Medical had undue hardship. Paying back your loan was undue hardship. It was trivially easy to qualify. The second loophole was “private” or “for profit.” The change in 2005 closed the loophole, (§ 523(a)(8)). it also moved the bar for ch 13 vs 7, which was probably a good thing since loans really ought to be repaid,
So, even though the code prohibited discharge of student loans, in practice the vast majority of student loans could be discharged in bankruptcy and routinely were. The republicans slammed the door on that. The law is an ass and the republicans really are the stupid party.
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So you are arguing the student loan mess is entirely based off of the Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act?
https://www.congress.gov/bill/109th-congress/senate-bill/256/text
Presumably this portion?
EC. 220. NONDISCHARGEABILITY OF CERTAIN EDUCATIONAL BENEFITS AND LOANS.
striking paragraph (8) and inserting the following:
(8) unless excepting such debt from discharge under this(A)(i) an educational benefit overpayment or loanparagraph would impose an undue hardship on the debtor and the
debtor's dependents, for--
made, insured, or guaranteed by a governmental unit, or
made under any program funded in whole or in part by a
governmental unit or nonprofit institution; or
(ii) an obligation to repay funds received as an(B) any other educational loan that is a qualifiededucational benefit, scholarship, or stipend; or
education loan, as defined in section 221(d)(1) of the
Internal Revenue Code of 1986, incurred by a debtor who
is an individual;”.
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Yep. It was in the oughts.
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No. What I’m saying is the 2005 act changed discharge ability of debt in practice and the republicans managed to get no benefit and lots of blame. The law as written and the law in practice are often different. Before the 2005 act student loans were routinely discharged even though the law, sorta, said otherwise. After, it became quite difficult. Good lawyers can still get it done, but it’s much harder,
At the end of the day, the student loan mess comes down to human frailty and the desire for parents to see their children do better. This attracted grifters as these things always do. First among the grifters were the universities, and it spread from there. It should go into the next edition of Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds,
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So… you’re blaming the republicans… because the republicans have been blamed… for something that isn’t even in the one relevant law that wasn’t passed by overwhelming democrat control.
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No. I’m saying the Republicans are stupid. Surely we can agree on that.
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yeah. they went along, and let themselves be rolled. And are now setting themselves up to be “the bad guys” to all the debt slaves. FOR NO GOOD REASON, which is what I’m trying to say. Nothing is saved by this, and much is worsened.
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Okay, it amuses me to think of the republicans turning around saying “Okay. fine, but debt jubilee. No more. And no more college loans that can’t be discharged in bankruptcy.”
And see how fast the democrats pivot. Because the thing is they like this FINE. And forgiving 10k doesn’t free ANYONE. It’s just a symbolic thing because the uninformed think “forgiving everyhting.”
if the republicans suggested getting rid of all of it, the left would lose its mind trying to stop it.
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Right up here, you were stating THE REPUBLICANS did this, and now that three different times the actual legal framework has been brought up, you’re using a marketing/persuasion tactic where one demands the other agree or disagree with an unrelated statement, framing it as if the demand is somehow anything besides a manipulation attempt used in order to break down rational resistance and get folks to do that which they would not, if not manipulated, do.
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“Facing
militarypolitical and propaganda defeat [in Vietnam]…”They sure got that wrong. Our problems in Vietnam were never military. Johnson fancied himself a Great War Leader and micromanaged the actual soldiers into ineffectuality. Not following up after we smashed the Tet Offensive was criminally stupid. We could have driven the VC to Hanoi just like we drove the Nazis back to Berlin.
But that would have ended a highly profitable war.
———————————
“Neville Chamberlain was very keen on peace!”
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I’ve read , all to date, the comments, and still feel one needs to honor contractual agreements, including student loans. Yes I strongly agree the higher bar for bankruptcy is wrong and the rules must be modified.
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Straight up “forgiveness” is a bad idea– and yes, contracts hsould be honored.
Which is why the colleges must be investigated.
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Yes, indeed. And the young should be whipped twice a day for going around being young.
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Why no that would be silly and irrational. Requiring the honoring of commitments is, in my opinion, not.
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Where does your opinion fall in expecting folks to honor commitments that are fraudulent, entered under duress, and the terms change after entry?
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I’d say this is no longer a discussion, I have an will honor commitments I’ve made. I do think it’s right for other folks to do so as well.
I never suggested I support that young should be whipped twice a day for going around being young, nor that I was supporting transactions that are fraudulent, entered under duress, or those wherein the terms change after entry.
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I never suggested I support that young should be whipped twice a day for going around being young, nor that I was supporting transactions that are fraudulent, entered under duress, or those wherein the terms change after entry.
Except you quite literally are, as has been explained by multiple people up and down the comments on this post.
Which means you were never in a discussion; you were willing to call it a discussion as long as your assumptions were not questioned or otherwise resisted, but call it quits when that isn’t the case.
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OK, if you say so.
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Audience event; I think your flouncing out of a discussion the second that you couldn’t browbeat folks into agreeing with your assumed conclusions makes the case just fine, not my having said it.
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Sigh, I simply gave my position on the issue. I did not denigrate you’re or anyone’s take on it. I noted I read the other opinions but still held my own. I did not try to sell you or anyone else my take, I simply stated how I feel.
You told me what, I think, which was rather rude, childish and pompous of you. Sarah suggested if I don’t buy into loan forgiveness I must also think beating children twice a day for being young is acceptable.
Rather than reply in kind or note your rudeness simply because I have a different opinion I was quite willing to drop it and just note if you so I’m OK with that.
Now you say; ” I think your flouncing out of a discussion the second that you couldn’t browbeat folks into agreeing with your assumed conclusions makes the case just fine, not my having said it. ”
Child, I simply said I disagree. I did not try to browbeat you or anyone into anything. I simply said the arguments presented did not change my position. Again I said nothing to fault those with a different opinion. I did not attack others, I did not and do no suggest they’re dead wrong simply because they disagree with my take.
Note this started with your query; “Where does your opinion fall in expecting folks to honor commitments that are fraudulent, entered under duress, and the terms change after entry?”
In my opinion that was a got ya question, I never said I support such, you later, in this thread, more or less said yes I did yes I did, everybody knows such loans were fraudulent, entered under duress, and the terms change after entry. So yes it was a got ya and even though I didn’t answer it you put words in my mouth (Here’s you doing so; “Except you quite literally are, as has been explained by multiple people up and down the comments on this post.”) so, obviously end of discussion, “O’Neil’s wrong, there that proves it!”.
BTW: I quite enjoyed your essay, I felt it was, germane, well researched, thoughtful and well written. I do not feel the same about some of your replies to my comments.
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You already flounced, Jim.
You declared that the discussion was over.
Why would folks bother with a new wall of text when you flounced?
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If you say so, child.
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Jim, to explain. I never said you said we should whip the children for going around being young, but it is EXACTLY what your attitude comes across like. “In my day, we honored contracts. These whipper snappers should honor contracts.”
Except these are explicitly fraudulent contracts enabled and administered by the Federal government, which keep the “kids” meaning at least half the people under 40 ENSLAVED to the hope of payment, if they just vote democrat once more.
Since they entered this contract at absurdly young ages, with the connivance of all of society and their own deluded parents, is this something you REALLY want to endorse? Slavery to the federal government in the name of “contract”?
I have no idea what your religion is, but if you read your Bible, I think you’ll find G-d doesn’t want people enslaved to false gods, and very much wishes to set them free.
I think this comes down to your idolizing the “good old days” of the FDR model. It’s something that was set in your mind in your youth and you haven’t brought out and examined.
I actually DO respect you to much to think you’re not capable of changing your mind.
I enjoin you to think about it.
And by the way, by saying I want the loans forgiven I’m not endorsing Biden’s stinking plan. Forgiving 10k doesn’t do anything for 99% of the debtors. It’s a drop in the bucket, at best, and one they’ll recover in a year at daily compounding interest.
So the democrats get to keep their slaves AND get the reputation of forgiving the loans. No thank you.
What I’m proposing is what BGE termed a Debt Jubilee.
Endorsed in the bible. if you sell yourself as a slave because you’re poor, you’ll be free at the Jubilee.
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“Jim, to explain.” No worries Sarah, I’ll ‘plain back. ;-)
Yes, perhaps my attitude is that we should honor any contractual agreements we make, that a man’s word should be good. OK, no perhaps about it, a man’s word should be good, period.
“… never said you said we should whip the children for going around being young, but it is EXACTLY what your attitude comes across like.” Nope you never said I said but you did say I come across like I said. GRIN
Maybe so, maybe no, perhaps you and others read such, perhaps poor phrasing on my part, perhaps assumptions I didn’t mean on the reader’s part, perhaps my misinterpreting replies but…
I do contend a man’s word need be good, if you commit to something follow through on it.
Having said that, yes there are problems with the student loan system needing redress (& yes of course the system is so dysfunctional it need be dismantled, burned, buried and salted over, but the problems created by it should be redressed first.), I’m simply not convinced simple forgiveness is the way to go. I did, for example, note I support, but don’t limit my support to, address of such under the same bankruptcy laws as any other loan or contractual agreement would, most definitely, be the right thing to do. Simple forgiveness, especially as (& as you noted you find unacceptable, as do I, in your reply to me above.) proposed/mandated/ordered by our duly appointed present president, I’ve problems with.
I do admit I don’t have a horse in this race, my kids matriculated w/o government loans. One could say that such invalidates any opinion I may have on the subject or that such allows me to view it more objectively, your choice.
Your, “explicitly fraudulent contracts enabled and administered by the Federal government, which keep the “kids” meaning at least half the people under 40 ENSLAVED…” I see as a valid argument but, sadly, I feel the same is true of the majority of actions taken by our present duly appointed government.
Yes I am familiar with the biblical Jubilee year (I was educated mostly be Sisters of St. Joseph and Benedictine monks but, as there was an occasional Jesuit in my elucidative woodpile I can sometimes recall an occurrence, parse a sentence or construct a valid argument, maybe not often but at least sometimes.) , every 50 years if I remember right. All debts were basically canceled. I’ve often considered, daydreamed, of ways such could be incorporated into our legal system.
So! Why yes I can and do change my mind. I do agree student loans, any government loans, shucky darn, any government actions need be approached with a long spoon. I agree, the student loan programs requires redress to those affected and destruction of the program after such occurs, same as I felt before this conversation started.
I am just not convinced simple canceling of the loans is the right way to go, again though, noting I am not faulting anyone who sees it differently.
BTW; one major not to pick with you young Sarah; I take major affront to your I, old codger that I may be, am idolizing the “good old days” of the FDR model! Foo Fah and fold it all, FDR, never ever! Andy Jackson maybe. ;-)
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I actually agree with you. the whole damned thing is just a racket. Still, It burns my a—, it really does, because we worked hard to give our kids a boost and the kids “settled” on a college because we were price sensitive.
On the one hand my “I’ll pay NJ instate not a penny more, no loans and no one else’s state uni either” taught them a good lesson, made them hustle for scholarships, and, judging by my sister’s kids, keeping them out of the Ivy’s was a very good thing, On the other hand, well … it burns my a—.. Sorry, but even with the scholarships I dropped a lot of money on basically nothing. It’s not even real sheepskin, The only thing I have out of the whole mess is that my kids started out debt free. We’re not wealthy enough to do much more than that for them.
I think the real issue is the state boards of this and that. Medicine and Law are Bachelor’s degrees just about everywhere else and education, bah. Credentials hiding the fact that we have consigned our young people to the stupidest cohort other than the outright impaired.
Number two son really should become a HS teacher in a boys school. He’d be fantastic at it and the boys need him. He tried, he really did, to go through the school of education. Between the PC BS and the stupid, mean girls, he just couldn’t hack it. he’s on his way to Imperial College London next for something that will pay him much better, but I don’t think he’ll be as happy as he would have been, and it’s really a damned shame.
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Then the system is working as intended, keeping the Wrong People from going in and teaching the students, instead of ‘Educating’ them with all the latest left-wing bullshit.
Cynical? Moi?
———————————
They’re the Experts! They only sound stupid to you because you’re not as Educated as they are.
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Younger son would be an amazing teacher. I think he considered it for two weeks in 10th grade. And then I explained.
Completely unsuited. He as a tendency to say exactly what he thinks.
He’s working as a comics editor, and he loves it. So if that works, as a path, that’s fine. It doesn’t pay badly, even.
And his loans we can pay off. (We paid most of his college out of pocket.)
My older son…. well. I will write.
It upsets me more than I can say. Even medicine and law don’t teach much. They then learn the profession in internships. why colleges, even? Why not apprenticeships?
I just want to set fire to the whole thing.
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Just described my sister. To a T. She taught for 25 (30?) years. Middle school science and technology. She was always one truth away from suspension (they finally quit the “without pay” part because she always won in arbitration and her union rep was less than optimal). She is incapable of not stating her opinion.
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Yeah. but now?
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Oh. She’s retired. Has been now for 5 years. School district needed her gone for financial reasons. Principal asked what it would take to get her to retire early, she told him (fully intended to go to age 62 when her contract ran out). They paid out her contract, including insurance, and brought in a substitute. (Don’t know how they saved money. But they could say a teacher retired and stay quiet on the payout.) The district younger kids, especially those who older siblings had her, and their parents, were not happy. A number of reasons. But the big one was all the fun physical science stuff stopped. It was no more. Including the ice cream social that years classes were counting on at the end of the year (gallon freezer baggies with ice, and salt, and 2 smaller quart freezer baggies with ice cream ingredients, and tossing of bags until ice cream is made).
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I’d be okay with forgiving student loans for doctors, lawyers, engineers, (STEM), etc. that do a stint of service in the Armed Forces (or something reasonably equivalent) in exchange for said forgiveness. That way the taxpayer gets something out of it.
But someone gets a couple hundred thousand in debt getting ANY degree with the word “Studies” in it…no way.
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There are under served locations that used to pony up (or something) a salary, and X years working at the under served location got more and more of the student debt paid off.
I know of one Alaskan tribe who was doing this for Pharmacy. Only they were paying a scholarship/loan. If you didn’t complete the program or full fill the obligation, you owed it back. In addition you had to be related to a member of the tribe. In this case the individual did not complete the program so had to pay back the money. Instead went into air traffic control, then ended up doing truck transportation scheduling for some large company.
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You can apply for it. Older son has applied. (not that one.) But it’s like VA disability. Only 2% end up being admitted to the program, and it’s completely random.
AND the year you finally get the loans forgiven you owe that amount in tax, as if someone had given you that much.
That is inadequate. And again, it’s another government boondoggle, perpetuating debt slavery.
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Blink.
Dang. That is so wrong on so many levels.
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Ah, yup. Now you know why I’m ready to go to war.
This affects my family, thank you so much, and I see what the boys went through.
I also have a doctor trained in a third world country, and work around that. And it’s the best we could get here. So, you know? Yeah, I’m going to get salty.
I don’t think people who were ACTIVELY DEFRAUDED should be held responsible because “hey, they signed a contract.”
What people are missing is that in 2008 when Obama arranged it so loans could no longer be discharged n bankruptcy and were MEDIATED BY THE GOVERNMENT, the schools raised their prices through the roof and started doing outright fraudulent stuff. Younger son thought he was graduating. They aren’t supposed to let them take the discharge seminar (whatever it’s called) unless there’s no way they aren’t. But one of the first classes he’d taken (because they stuck him on “you have to take this class that’s only available at the same time as another class for three years” and because now it required more “local history” for an engineering degree, no longer counted. And he would have to retake it. he walked, and refuses to even look at going back at new area.
I don’t entirely blame him. But we dealt with two years of profound depression and I ALSO don’t blame him.
Meanwhile, older son who did everything right (and got lucky) might not have enough money to even consider kids while they can still have them. His brother is making more money as a part time beginning assistant editor, okay?
Are my kids isolated cases? Oh, hell no. Most of their friends are in worse shape.
And then people say “oh, they signed a contract.”
They sure did. which got altered and altered again, and then even when everything went well, the “goal” is held just out of reach.
These are not stupid people. These are not unmotivated people. My kids and their friends are by and large hard workers, and high IQ. But you can’t beat the system, and you can’t beat city hall. The ones who are married are sharing three bedroom homes with two other couples, and barely making payments on loans, even the ones with “good jobs.”
This is no way to treat human beings. it just ain’t.
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I know.
We got our son through without loans. He switched out his Chemical Engineering to straight Chemistry, otherwise he might not have gotten done. Still took 5 years because of class timing. He had ONE required class that he could not get until Spring 2012, to graduate Fall 2011. It cost him an opportunity he thought he wanted. Well Obama also pulled some stunts. But to get him through without loans meant every non-retirement savings, the college savings, and then some, we had. Even then until the opportunity went away, he was earning small rewards (“Oh. Good. Books are covered.”). Good thing he was living off campus because at least rent was due monthly not in bulk at the beginning of the term, and he could come home every other weekend for laundry, and pantry/freezer
raidingshopping.Son is working at a trade. He refuses to pay the rent costs for the downtown hovels and the new “cost efficient” apartments are impossible. Even with a good monthly income he can’t get in one without a cosigner. It is either help out friends and pay to rent a room, or you know, live with roommates who aren’t going to just kick him out or leave him holding the
rentmortgage. Besides we need cat sitters. If we drop dead, he inherits the house anyway (and everything else). It is amazing the “Oh. Didn’t think of that.” Look people get when you phrase it that way instead of “living at home with us”. Another few years we’ll be “we live with him”, he’ll be a saint.Son could get a lab chemistry job. But he’d have to move to California, Seattle WA area, or a blue enclave on the east coast. He has said “Not happening.” Wouldn’t pay enough to live there (that isn’t counting the communist political stuff).
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Sigh. (WP don’t you know what I meant to do? Dang it.)
kick him out or leave him holding the
rentmortgage. Besides we need cat sitters. If we drop dead, he inherits the house anyway (and everything else). It is amazing the “Oh. Didn’t think of that.” Look people get when you phrase it that way instead of “living at home with us”. Another few years we’ll be “we live with him”, he’ll be a saint.LikeLiked by 1 person
Yeah. without younger son’s help, we couldn’t have got this move done, not until Dan can get his knees fixed, and by then we’ll be 70 or something.
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Yep, yep, yep. All of that, but we couldn’t pay for both. We just couldn’t, with the costs doubling almost by the year. And keep in mind that they also worked at least some, and cut things to the bone. We shopped from thrift stores.
MY goal is to pay off their loans. it’s part of the reason for the blog fundraisers.
Because they’re stuck, and I’d like to have grandchildren. Okay, it probably won’t happen. I don’t make that much. BUT it’s a hope. Sigh.
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I know. Which is why I put emphasis on one. We had 3 incomes, some scholarship money, those small rewards, and 18 years of tax free educational savings (not that it grew as much as it should have under Oregon’s guidance; grumble. The only benefit was not paying taxes on it. Which was 9% off the top “savings”; don’t remember if we had to pay federal taxes on that money or not.)
Sister whose family lives in Washington state, had the college fund option of purchasing college credits at prior lower cost. Even if their third, the youngest, doesn’t use all the remaining ones bought (starting 34 years ago, for 20 years), they still got a heck of a bargain, on the class costs (don’t think that is happening, his last year he’ll run out of prepaid credits before he is done). But they still have to come up with fees, books (which while bad, haven’t gone up as bad as tuition and fees), and room and board. I know their oldest two had loans (because two in college away from home with a three year overlap). But they had an 8 year gap between the second and the youngest to get some breathing room. Plus they hit the “we can tap tax free savings without fines and penalties”, before youngest started.
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when we could have done college accounts, I wasn’t making money yet. Just keeping the boys in shoes was enough of a problem.
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I paid full whack for three children through grad school. No loans. Loan forgiveness burns my a—. Still, it might be good policy. Debt jubilees often are.
We’re all the victims of at least three decades of financial repression and the economic balance is completely out of whack. Something less than revolution really needs to be done.
Then we abolish the Fed.
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We paid half for two. Which if you guys want to know how a family with two professionals often came to the point of wondering if lights would stay on for years on end? Yep….. That was it. And yes, we HAD savings.
My job being irregular didn’t help.
Point being, we were the ones at the spear point, but I’d guess the next ten years were the same. it kept doubling every year, I swear, between books and other fees and stuff required. I’ve since learned it’s worse in state schools, yes. We thought we were being financially prudent. And it kept getting zannier. Because you know it was right after Obama started making everything worse.
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Sarah, it’s been that way for a LONG time. I couldn’t get scholarships despite earning them because my parents had too much money. Neither could my sister, either before or while she was in her first marriage.
As soon as she became a divorced single mother, Pell Grants and everything else were showered upon her. We reward failure and punish success, and this was 30-40 years ago.
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Yep. But Dan still got scholarships because amazingly good grades. Kids couldn’t do that, not even with great grades and a lot of advanced classes. Nothing.
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The only reason youngest sister, ’61, HS graduation ’79, was able to get scholarships she’d earned were because both of us older sisters were still in college when youngest sister was applying for the scholarships. I actually graduated with my degree, before she graduated HS. But the applications asked about family finances and siblings in college, at the time of the application. Didn’t matter that by then both of us older sisters were paying our own way.
Parents paid room and board first year. After that we each paid our own way. Did have loans sophomore thru graduation. Parents did kick in emergency money if ran out spring term. Also was known for raiding the homestead pantry and freezer (we were thought “rich” because I was eating venison and trout. Seriously?) Also how I ended up eating salmon for 6 weeks starting my summer job. Folks had one commercial salmon fishing boat, crew of 2. Back when still could sports fish off boat before season started (note, technically they lost money every season). Weekend before I started, went out (I chummed, I do not do well on boats) boat limited out. Mom: “here is your meat until you get paid” hands me 3 large salmon. Didn’t get the check for 6 weeks (back then). Even my roommate was tired of salmon before I could afford to go shopping. I was giving it away (they were very Big fish). Salmon steaks. Salmon loaf. Baked salmon. Fired salmon. Salmon made up like tuna fish for sandwiches. It was a decade before I’d cook salmon at home. Even now it isn’t a steady dish.
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Your youngest sister is my age and HS graduation year, but I was the oldest.
My grades etc. were good enough to get me into Davidson College and win National Merit, but my folks and I had saved and worked, so no scholarship for you.
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If little sister had been the oldest she wouldn’t have gotten scholarships either. It was because the two of us were in college that supposedly (parents didn’t claim they were although technical the middle sister they were because she lived at home for college) parents were paying. Application asked how many in college in the household. We were both technically still in the household in ’78, and in college, when the applications were due. Never mind that hubby and I were married late ’78 (at which point I dropped out of the household stats).
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“Oh, but they should have got scholarships.” Sure. Are they black females?
No? Then yeah, they could have taken a thousand off tens of thousands of debt.
Keep in mind we paid half of each kid’s education and they and most of their friends went state schools and lived at home.
Turns out the “expensive schools” are less scammy on the keep graduation out of reach to get more money out of them. At least SOME of them.
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Why not? The “expensive schools” you pay more in two years than you’d pay in 4 or 5 at the state colleges. At least it was that way with the private (not one of the big known ones) school that offered son a half scholarship. The half we had to pay, excluding plus room/board/fees/books/trips home, was 1.25x what we did pay for everything at the state school up the road, even through his last year. This would have been for Fall ’07. Not surprised the parents who are paying put their thumb on the scale to ensure the private schools are more accountable.
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The loan forgiveness thing is a generally applicable rule. It would have to be worked around carefully because the opportunities for income tax fraud are enormous.
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Sigh. They already can get the debt discharged with public service for ten years.
Look, you can’t say “doctors went along with covid.” These people have been in school 16 to twenty, four years residency. one year fellowship, all at below clerk rates. Perhaps another fellowship BEFORE THEY CAN EARN EVEN “computer programer money” (Which is what MOST of them earn.)
They have on the low end a quarter million dollars in debt. They say “I don’t agree with this” they lose their license.
Good move. You want doctors OWNED by the government? Keep the current regime on. Including, yes “work at lower pay another 10 years where we tell you and keep zipped and we forgive your loans.” DEBT SLAVERY.
So, in their fifties, when most of them are RETIRING they might be free.
You wonder why so many of them walk and your doctor was trained in China or Africa and is weird? Well, that’s why.
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“They say “I don’t agree with this” they lose their license.”
If any of the “red state governors” want to impress me, they should start by taking licensing away from the “professional” associations, and admitting privileges away from the hospitals.
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Dear Lord. Tell me about it. ALL the professional associations have been captured.
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I’m literally not saying any of that.
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No. But you’re saying “let’s create a government exemption to the loans.” They already exist. They’re government. They suck.
See what I told Imaginos. What you’re doing right now is LITERALLY supporting the universities. Because the only way not to pay is to be enrolled, at least half time, in a degree program. So, when people can’t pay–
This is quite literally insane.
But we’re not going after the government that created this bind — and btw, sure, if they forgive it we’ll all be indentured forever. As opposed to being indentured forever to send pallets of cash to the Taliban? — we’re not going after people our age who have let businesses create a “must have a BA to work in retail (to get around government bullshit, yes and also because public schools suck), we’re not going after the universities. No. The people who were scammed, and who came into this unaware what a mess this was, as the mess deepened 30 years ago are totally the ones we should pound on.
Also, btw “Serve in the military” …. uh. NOW? Are you okay? Again, like the universities aren’t the ones you think, this is not your father’s or your military. Every veteran I know tells every kid trying to go in “don’t. Not now.”
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In a lot of ways I’m glad Obama screwed with what son wanted out of college. One class kept him from graduating to be able to contract with the Air Force through college ROTC, because of the cuts Obama pulled early ’10s. He could have gone army. He wanted to fly (and yes that wasn’t a guaranty. Just more likely with Air Force regardless of what he did.) He’d be in the middle of his career about now. But Obama spiked it. Angry for son. OTOH in light of the last decade? As it is the college ROTC let him finish out the classwork even though if not contracting technically wasn’t an option (he’d already done the Air Force ROTC summer boot camp). So he had hours he could fill while he waited for the one class he needed to graduate. Am I sorry we sent him to college? No. Even if he isn’t using the degree he got. Not one of the useless ones. If he’d gotten one of those the ROTC route wouldn’t have been a problem. Just nothing in areas where he is willing to move to (and not one that can be remote). He is working. He has gotten opportunities through work he does because of college (and Eagle) that others with more time at the job (and Eagle) haven’t. Is that right? Well my son, so Yes.
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And that’s not counting the bait and switch, you’re a male, we’re going to keep you having to take one more course, until you give up and walk. Happened to my family. NO the contract is no longer the catalog when you entered. And if they don’t offer courses and it takes more than seven years, you have to RETAKE courses because they stop counting.
This is what I mean by “You people have no idea what universities are NOW do you?”
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You realize the government already milks a shitton of skilled labor out of people who can’t pay, right?
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Nope. I agree, but we need to make the colleges eat it. And means test it, but I am already being impractical.
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Just one comment – THANK YOU for using the word “reporter”! A reporter reports what happens.
News began to change for the worse, IMHO, when they all began to call themselves “journalists.” Journals are where you record happenings that interest you – and how you feel about them.
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Like teachers becoming “professional educators.” But so are the administrators, and teachers’ aids, and para-administrators [no idea what that means], counselors, and everyone short of the lunch lady and the custodian. As best I can tell.
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The interesting thing about “shop local, not chains” thing is that if a local store is successful enough, they become a chain.
Incredibly awesome local ice cream parlor? It’s just opened up its fifth location. Well, its fifth centrally-owned location. It tried franchising in the 80s and there are still a couple of places with the name in far-flung areas, but not run by the named family.
The photography studio I work for? It’s got something close to 100 client schools, three studio locations (just until fall, for senior portraits) and has about 100 mile range in spite of the franchise we shake our heads over. (Among other things, they pay their workers poorly and get the expected results.)
Local stores that don’t do well tend to sink. And every store is local somewhere. (Wish we’d get a proper bookstore back. This city is too big for one specialty mini-mall store.)
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For that matter, with franchises, you can end up with a local store (quality of service, owned by a family that is here) that happens to have a chain name.
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(came to mind because the guy who has the two closest Ace hardware stores does a GREAT job of running them)
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This is true. Who runs it matters.
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Wish there was a good model for a print on demand bookstore. There are a bunch of e-only books that are good enough quality that I’d like to see them in dead tree form.
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So do I.
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Yes. We started eating at a taqueria in 2004. It was near the Home Desperate and was/is one of the few places both of us can eat without triggering gluten issues.
A few years later, they opened Store #2 near the Walmart. Store #3 is over the Cascades, near a huge sports park with several ballfields, and across the highway from the Harry and David business (those Oregon fruit gift packages? Thank Harry & David). Yesterday, I ate at the brand-new Store #4, where they took a taco chain store that died due to Covidiocy. That’s near the hospital/medical complex as well as the local college.
The manager from #2 is now handling #4, and so far, they’re not franchising. I can trust the food (though not the delicious, but occasionally dangerous handmade salsas–somebody has used wheat flour instead of cornstarch, and I don’t care to repeat that experience…).
I stopped at a Taco Hell once shortly before the Covid crap. Discovered that what I thought would be corn was a flour tortilla. Ate the innards (I’m not violently allergic to gluten, unlike $SPOUSE. I have to ingest it for the festivities to commence) and put it on the “too risky to eat there” list. ‘Sides, the food was mediocre, but I was hoping to save time. Sigh.
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In defense of the lack of small engine parts in the auto parts store, at least in the case of the (admittedly, national chain) store I work for, we are an AUTO PARTS store. Granted we have some spark plugs and air & fuel filters for the most commonly found devices as a courtesy, but for things like carburetors and carburetor bits we send them to the nearby (Ma & Pa) small engine store. Which can be a pain for the customer since M&P have apparently concluded that no one’s yard equipment is ever going to have a problem between Noon on Saturday and 8:00 AM on Monday. But heck, theMaynard’s a block up the street from us has a better selection of SE parts.
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Except he’s a small engine shop inside of the local auto parts store, and usually I order the parts through that same store….
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C4C
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c4c
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So we like krispy kreme doughnuts and a couple of decades ago a brand new, built from scratch one was put up by us in Apple Valley Minnesota – there was much rejoicing and the consumption of lots of their product. Alas, the chain had over-extended and that branch went out of business just a few years later. We figured it was bad financing and the franchise owner just couldn’t make it work. Now, I am not so sure.
Fast forward to today and again we live where there is krispy kreme and yup, over the last ten years we’ve been happy to eat all we can. Then suddenly a bit over a year ago the store closed for about a week, cleaning crews came in and the place was cleaned up top to bottom and after another week or so they were open but with reduced hours and fewer product choices. I asked and it went from (what we always saw as run very well) franchise to now being run by krispy kreme corporate. Well, give them some time and they will get it going again. Not so fast – After a year plus, the lobby is only open once in a while, staff from week to week is never the same, often clueless and have poor customer service skills; product choices are about 30% of the old store and never near what the corporate web site wants you to think they have. Then about six months ago another krispy kreme opens right by our house – just two actual blocks away! They have worse problems – hours are often ‘funny’ and the lobby can be open or maybe closed, the choices are about 10-20% of the former store and several times they couldn’t take cash as the “manager” didn’t bring in any and they could only take cards… Then one day I got three doughnuts and the clerk said to just take them and nobody there could run the registers. This is a satellite to the main store and is also run by corporate.
It is almost like somebody doesn’t want it to succeed but has to act like they are trying. It would only make sense if they were doing money laundering. If this keeps up as is and doesn’t improve I figure both places will be gone by next summer and we will have another “Nail Bar” or dry cleaner where they used to be. We gave up and just quit going as every time I talked to someone “higher” than the counter staff the story was it’s still being “worked out” and the details were never the same and management was also clueless that there were even issues. Enough of my rant – I just wanted a good doughnut and I think some MBA 30 year old whizz kid with magic business plans is killing the brand.
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Krispy Kreme tried to move in here. It lasted about a year. What killed it were the local small-chain and one-shop places, and a stop-n-run chain saying they’d switched to KrKream because they tasted fresh on the second day so they didn’t have to restock as often.
I sort of wonder if that was a deliberate “Oops, you weren’t supposed to know wink-wink.”
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In Silly Valley, a lot of the smaller doughnut shops were run by Hmong families. KK wasn’t around when I lived there, though one of the national chains (Dunkin’, I think) was nearby and did good business.
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” I asked and it went from (what we always saw as run very well) franchise to now being run by krispy kreme corporate.”
Winchell’s Donuts used to be a very popular donut franchise chain. Then, decades ago (during the 70s, I think), the corporate offices decided to do the exact same thing that you described above to all of their franchises. The result was more or less the same.
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c4c
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Krispy Kajun Chicken. It’s a chain that franchises through gas stations, beer drive-thrus, and so on.
I am enslaved. It is just delish. I don’t know why or how, but it is so darned good.
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I haven’t run into them; where do they operate?
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Is that actually Krispy Krunchy Chicken? I don’t get any matches searching for Krispy Kajun Chicken.
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No, you’re right, it is Krunchy instead of Kajun. But they are a Cajun-run chain and have Cajun spicy as well as normal fried chicken .
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Ok, thanks. I haven’t tried them but have seen a bunch of them here in the Cincinnati area, mostly in strip malls or gas stations.
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Had an interesting example today of what attracts me to a store. Stopped over in Missoula, and decided to visit local tea producer. Got there, and found a “Trans are welcome in Montana and they are Welcome here!” sign with a trans flag background, a rainbow-colored BLM sign, etc. Went in to look, but in the end wandered out without buying anything. Contemplated a letter explaining how I’d never dream of forcing them to accept money polluted by being from a “bigot,” not to mention that they’re NOT brave and subversive – they’re standing tall for the up-to-the-second conventional morality of a college town.
Later, while my beloved visited a camera store, I wandered off and found a tea/spice company. The ONLY sign with any sort of message was the, “Visualize Whirled Peas,” sign over the coffee grinder. The ladies behind the counter were probably hippies back in the day, but now they’re firm capitalists with a sense of humor. I bought 12 ozs of loose leaf tea and two cookies. And if the tea’s good, I’ll probably add them to my mail-order list.
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There was a shop in Santa Fe, NM that had a big sign on the door: Everyone welcome! Except politicians – they pay double. Career politicians pay triple.
I was tempted to go in and look at their hats, but I’d probably have left with something, and my wallet was already whimpering.
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After spending most of a week in Missoula last year, I started referring to it to my friends familiar with Texas as Austin North.
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“Jack went mad, then went out the window.”
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We had a guy quit last year because one of the other departments on campus won’t do their stated job, along with continually lying about it. That horrible smell causing you to be light headed and nauseous? It’s not caused by a “bad load of coal” like the told everyone. After finding out about a bad transformer leak that had PCBs in it, that people walked through for three days before notifying anyone, eight other transformer leaks on campus. How long had they known about them? Let’s call it “months” and not concern ourselves with the number of digits involved. Any of them also have PCBs involved? Five no, and three haven’t checked yet. I can completely understand why that guy quit.
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I’m not sure why this comment didn’t link to my profile. wordpress delenda est
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