Keep Calm, and Have a Plan to Kill Everyone in the Room – Cedar Sanderson I am a weapon. When the time comes to strike, the tool I happen to use is not the weapon, the squishy gray stuff between my ears is. In aid of keeping my weapon sharp, I have done various training and thought exercises over the years, and I know that in order to be ready to defend myself and others, I occasionally need to refresh this. Like, as the truism above states, playing a mental game of situational awareness. Locate yourself in the room. Where is the entrance? The exit? How else could danger come (the windows?) and how can you escape. Standing and doing battle may not be the optimal choice, depending on what is coming at you. But most important, be aware of your surroundings. Out for a walk? Walk straight, with head up and eyes moving, rather than looking down at your feet or grocery list or book…And if you are listening to music, go with only one earbud in, not both, so you can hear your surroundings. This awareness is vital to planning the next move. Not long ago I was performing at a party in a bad part of a nearby city. Now, I’m all sweetness and light at these things. But partway through the party I became aware that there was a situation, and I immediately started preparing for what might happen next. Best case scenario, which is ultimately what did occur, was that the cops came, all settled down, and there was no escalation. Worst case would have been for the teenage boy who was chased down the street being accused of theft to have returned with armed re-enforcements, a not unlikely situation in that area. Me? I planned to stuff the little kids under the sturdy picnic tables I was set up next to, where they would be out of the line of fire, and either join them, or stand guard over them. All I could do. Even had I been carrying (and I’m not saying I wasn’t) I wouldn’t have done anything to draw fire on them.
Not everyone wants to use a gun as their tool when the time comes. Some are uncomfortable with them, for whatever reason. But as a 5’2” female, I know that a force-multiplier is essential. I haven’t the training to use a sword, nor is carrying one every day a reasonable option. I always have a blade on me, but I’d rather not have an attacker that close-in thankyouverymuch. The firearm is a very good option, but again, it’s not always available. So… what else can you use as your tool, when you are being the weapon.
Walk with me through my (ok, this isn’t all real, but if you’re thinking about breaking in, know that it’s a very bad idea at Chez Sanderson) house… Behind the front door is a battleaxe. It’s lighter than the double-bitted axe I once used to fell trees and split firewood, but you aren’t a green spruce trunk. Also in this area are various garden tools like shovels, and a bamboo Bo which belongs to my beloved and I need lessons with…
A little further, you made it into my kitchen. Boy, are you in trouble now. A knife block with my favorite 10” santuko I keep razor sharp, my 12” cast iron skillet (bonus if it’s hot and full of grease) – these are just the beginning. Made it past that? I’m sitting in the office. I have a firearm within arm’s reach, and also a coffee carafe that is usually at least half-full of near-boiling liquid (don’t make me waste my caffeine). Bedroom? Well, to begin with there’s a shotgun…
What about outside the house? Sarah pointed out when we were talking about this post that she has defended herself with shoes and dictionaries. I often wear hardened teak hair-sticks, and yes, you can fly with them… I checked with a TSA agent once (didn’t mention I was thinking of it as a weapon). Anything loose and heavy can become a projectile. What matters is: did you think of it beforehand? Because you most likely will not have the time to think when the attack comes.
The human brain is a funny thing. We react to situations often without concious through, acting on patterns formed before we were aware, as an adult, of what we should do. Some of us reacted to bullies with fists and feet, others crumbled under the onslaught. Look at your own patterns, and if you need to change them, set out to reform bad habits into good ones. Like looking around the room and making a plan for what you would do if it hit the fan with little or no warning.
I may be little, soft, and feminine, but mess with me and mine, and I will mess you up. It doesn’t matter what tool I choose, I am the weapon, and I will have no qualms about using it on you. The myth of the weak, helpless female is more busted than anything Jamie and Adam have ever taken on. Stop acting like a twit and trying to make everyone else take care of you, instead of being responsible for yourself. If there’s a threat, deal with it.
I’m not advocating a violent response to every situation. If, for instance, I am being hit on at a convention by a male I’m not interested in, I can choose one of several options. I can simply smile faintly and move away until I am out of his radius. If he follows, then I remain in a public place, preferably making my way to a group of friendly faces (I do not foolishly put myself in a situation where I am outnumbered and alone). At this point I can clearly and calmly inform him I’m not interested. If I must escalate, that he is making an ass of himself. Frankly, I’ve never gotten to this point, however, any rational person will then disengage. If he’s not rational, then and only then do you need to resort to violence should he lay hands on you. He’s not harassing you, child, if all he’s done is look at you in the way you don’t care for.
There are situations where it becomes very difficult to protect oneself. I have been in them, including the party I mentioned above, where to do so might have meant endangering little ones. I won’t do that. Sometimes we must choose what is best for a situation based on others, not ourself. But in order to be able to make that choice, you have to know beforehand what you would do. Protect the women and children? Yes. Protect those who refuse to protect themselves? I don’t know…
So. Make a plan. Practice the plan, with lots of thought, and involve your family and anyone who lives with you. Make it into a game, to help little ones get into it without teaching them undue fear. Prepare, and may the boogieman never come through your door. But if he does, be ready to open fire with your weapon.
According To Hoyt 
I started doing this as a kid, playing war games with my friends. Now, 50 years later, I do so automatically. I’ve moved out of situations before I was conscious of them. It’s a real good habit to get into.
Being that we’ve always had loads of kids around the house, leaving firearms scattered in various locations hasn’t been optimal. But they are there, in easy access (if you know where).
I think it’s especially true for women to have situational awareness (plus a willingness to go with your gut feelings) but men need to know it as well. In the last couple of weeks I’ve read several accounts of men placing themselves in hazardous situation because they didn’t pay attention to their surroundings.
BTW, Cedar, Oyster suggested I contact you on an unrelated matter (cover art). Got an email I can use?
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Doug, I’d be happy to help, you can use cedarlila at gmail dot com, reformatting as a regular address.
I think I started doing it at an early age because I read a lot of military fiction, and Dad gave me a book on it at one point (or maybe just left it where I coudl find it, which worked well on me). But he’d also take me out in the woods and give me E&E lessons, too :)
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Really. We were drilled by our parents. There were guns in the house, but in off-limits places with do-not-touch protocols in place. What do you do if someone comes to the front door? What if you’re outside? Carrying groceries in from the curb… Security protocols — what windows to lock at night, to keep the car secure at all times, even during loading and unloading. Always keep a weapon to-hand when you’re out in a dicey neighborhood alone at night. Be aware of where Mom’s purse (with the Colt .38 Commander in it) is at all times. This should be a part of the education a responsible parent imparts to his/her children. Plus: kinds love these games. ::eyebrow bounce::
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You ever noticed that the hoplophobes who would have vapors at that nevertheless approve of novels where it’s plain racism to object to vampires — who live on human blood, werewolves — who habitually run wild as ravening beast, or sundry other beings who can do all sorts of things, up to undetectably kill you with their minds.
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A few years back I read a series where humans feared the return of the Great Magelords.
It was a reasonable fear as the first book involved the return of an Apprentice Great Magelord. (It took a Dragon to take down the Apprentice.)
Yet, in the second book it was showed as evil for a human Lord to restart the persecution of the Lesser Mages.
However, in the third book we learn that the Lesser Mages can learn to become Great Magelords.
Oh, the series ended with a former Lesser Mage who had not only become a Great Magelord (still a nice guy) but had gained more power than any other Great Magelord and thus became the Absolute Ruler of his world.
A few problems
1) He was immortal.
2) While he taught other Lesser Mages to become Magelords, only he knew how to create/access the source of his greater power.
3) The author implied that he would never turn bad but I wondered how he could be stopped if he did become bad?
So while I enjoyed the series, I couldn’t help but wonder if the fear of even the Lesser Mages was somewhat reasonable.
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Your comment about acting on patterns formed before we were aware reminds me of Jordan’s book “No Second Place Winner”. A reloader was puzzled about a bulge in his pocket after a gunfight. As he always emptied the spent brass into his pocket, for reloading, during his practice sessions; that is what he did during a real fight.
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I read that one. I imagined him just standing there returning fire, as it would be difficult to fill your pocket if you’re moving or taking cover.
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This page claims the “spent brass in the pockets of dead cops” is an unsubstantiated myth, though I have no idea of the reliability of this source.
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The proverbial urban legend. Wouldn’t surprise me.
I always had a little trouble buying that one. I could see emptying the gun without a hit or continued trigger yanking with safety on, things of that nature, but collecting brass?
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I just started following Caleb’s blog. He’s a little too sure of himself, IMO, but mostly not wrong, so far.
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I like that. Would be a nice detail in a story, thanks!
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That very phenomenon prompted a shift in police training. Dead officers were found with spent brass in hands and pockets. Because they’d always policed their brass at the range, they did it during actual firefights.
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And that’s a detail that would work well, too… but yeah, one thing the instructor pointed out at the CCW class was on the range, the young man who was just back from ‘over there’ was shooting, the magazine hit the ground and the next one was in without a pause… he didn’t take time to tuck the mag away neatly, you don’t have time for that in a firefight.
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Magazines are considered expendable resources, as in a – oh, just for example – clearing a building of hostiles in a major city in an arid environment, one simply doesn’t have the time to stoop to pick up an empty. That can get you killed. Worse, it can get your buddies killed. That said, a lot of guys get butt that’ll absorb the damage of falling to the ground. But here we get into the difference between maneuver and static defense, as well as the difference between operations deployed and training at home at the base range, and why those doing the paperwork always seem to get tetchy about how many mags got “combat lossed” during the last training exercise.
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Here in CO “high capacity” magazines aren’t expendable because it’s illegal to get new ones. (I really wish the governor hadn’t signed a law that he admitted couldn’t be enforced.)
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Magazines being considered expendable is strictly a military or other “somebody else is paying for these” situation. And fortunately, outside of competitions, most of us won’t ever have to deal with a scenario where we have to accomplish combat reloads. And, yeah, that’s one of the things Mrs. Dave and I are keeping an eye on regarding where we land. She’s from Littleton, and most of her family is in Colorado. While we love the state, we’re not so fond of some of the recent legistlation.
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I’m hoping this next round of elections create an environment conducive to reversing the ill conceived, poorly written and badly received gun legislation. I was surprised there were only two recall elections and one forced resignation.
If you land in the right jurisdiction in CO, the sheriff might actively NOT enforce the laws because he (I think they’re all he) doesn’t think it’s constitutional.
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Yup. At this point, that’s all of ’em but Boulder county and whichever county Denver occupies. I think. They’ve all said it’s unenforceable, and unconstitutional besides. While it may not be against the letter of the Constitution, it certainly rapes the spirit of the document. Regardless, we’re hopeful, and Mrs. Dave has at least a couple of tours left before we land anywhere for long, so we have time. Probably.
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Actually, it certainly is against the letter of the Second Amendment. That says “shall not be infringed”. Not “shall not ge abridged”‘ and certainly “shall only be infringed when some nitwit gets his panties in a bunch”. As I parse the wording, about the only restriction that could get past a really strict interpretation would be a requirement that any arms held by the citizenry be customarily carried and operated by one person.
Not that this is what we are getting.
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Leadership 101: NEVER GIVE AN ORDER YOU KNOW WILL NOT BE OBEYED.
Corollary: Never propose, vote for, pass, or sign into law a statute that is unenforceable. You’re wasting your time, my time, and my tax dollars, you damn fool!
/rant
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But how will liberals get warm, fuzzy feelings if they follow THAT maxim? And they’re more than willing to waste whatever resources you have.
Which reminds me, I need to see how the gun registration issue in Connecticut has played out.
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“Which reminds me, I need to see how the gun registration issue in Connecticut has played out.”
Mexican stand-off.
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Byron,
Do this magic thinking with guns and Conservitives do it with drugs.
Both in the name of public safety.
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If politicians would refrain fromsigning or voting for laws that couodn’t be enforced, about a third of the Federal Mess wouldn’t exist.
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At the IPSC competition I shot at, magazines were just dropped and a new one loaded. You picked up your brass and your mags after the round.
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Which is a good way to train, and – ultimately – the point of the discussion. Ensure your training is appropriate to your needs.
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Yep. Buddy that I teach CCW with always tells of California Highway Patrol traffic stop that went really bad in the late 70’s/early 80’s. At that time CHP was training officers to place their empties in neat piles to assist in recreating the crime scene. So when the bad guys, who were fleeing from a bank robbery, hop out and open up on the troopers, the troopers jump out and return fire. The troopers died because they placed their empties in neat piles on the floorboards of the cruiser. Doing that took too much time, and each time they did it, they took their eyes off the threat. IIRC, the driving trooper was shot at close range while reloading, and the investigation determined that it was because he’d taken his eyes off the threat that allowed the criminal to close to essentially point blank range.
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Ya’ll are thinking generally of the Newhall massacre. CHP officers found with empty revolvers and empty brass in the pocket. Officer found with 5 rounds loaded and died trying to load the 6th round, because that was how they had been trained. A major wakeup call and always something to keep in mind, especially with some of the tactical timmies and internet ninja’s tropes, is this valid training ? what is or could be the outcome of always doing such and so in this manner and in this sequence ? No different in many ways than making small variations in your routine. always drive 12th ave ? switch it up, take Traction or 7th, so it might cost you an extra couple of minutes, it might be worth it ? do you have something on you when you walk out to the road to get the paper or the mail ? why not ? In my classes, I teach about using the what if game all the time, playing out scenarios and thinking about next steps and the steps after that.
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“do you have something on you when you walk out to the road to get the paper or the mail ?”
I’d ruther be pantless!
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I’d ruther be pantless!
Kilt: problem solved.
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I should have anticipated that one.
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Nobody ever got kilt by being prepared.
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Oh boy!
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In both “Methuselah’s Children” and “Time Enough for Love,” Heinlein has Lazarus Long delineate the concealed weapons options for a kilt in almost exhaustive detail. Also the kilt is still (to the best of my knowledge) the ONLY black tie formal wear for us European/American types wherein you are wearing at least two weapons in the clear.
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T wo? I assume you’re envisioning wearing the dress dirk, then? They’re not all that common these days. The skean dubh is still standard, of course.
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Of course the dirk. If I can get away with being openly armed I will be. Can in handy when I was at the University of Edinburgh. Most weapons are illegal in the UK but the dirk and sgian dubh were OK if you were in kilt. So I wore a kilt every day. I was not molested, even by chavs
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It’s debated depending on how the reload is carried – full moon has obvious advantages and many speed loaders are a cylinder full – but for people using a J-frame and something like a Bianchi Speed Strip (available from other makers and for other revolvers) some train to load 2 and then maybe another 2 and maybe not to get back in the fight ASAP. Worth practicing on a timer to make an informed choice.
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I may be conflating a couple of incidents. Buddy was in CA at that time and was later a LEO in southern CA. Actually, after writing that, I am conflating several stories. ATT, they were trained to pile the brass on the floor boards (separate pile for each reload) during training. I normally semi-zone out during that part of the class because I’m doing paperwork, but I will try to get clarification on the actual incident in the story he tells.
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I was going off my sometimes admitted faulty memory and based on partial memory of Ayoob’s book, did a bit of checking just now and CHP did not issue speedloaders prior to this incident, but made that change after. Also, CHP trained with 38 loads, but 3 of the troopers were carrying full house 357 in their weapons, but had not trained with those more powerful rounds. No brass was found in pockets, brass was found together on the ground, which is consistent with dumping empties from a revolver. also issues with lack of training with the shotgun, ie ejecting live round. April 6, 1970 was the date. a lot of training changes in the 44 years since them.
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You are welcome. Make good use of it :)
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There as an ANALOG story some years ago–cops trained on virtual reality simulators using VR glasses. He was in a real fire-fight, and someone told him that he’d kept sweeping a hand across his face to make sure he wasn’t in VR and real rounds were going downrange and incoming (IIRC, it’s been a while). I recall another story in a gun mag about picking up brass after emptying a magazine and ejecting it.
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You can fly with hair-sticks? Use them as a broomstick? or just flap them really hard? :o)
In my experience 99% will not defend themselves, so if you stand up, you’ll be defending those who won’t. That’s okay, maybe they’ll learn from example.
Nice post. Embrace your inner wolf!!!
Fred
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Fly with hairsticks? Pbbb… Have I told y’all you’re like having brothers? I don’t have Sarah’s carping abilities. Hmmm! Must come up with non-lethal distance weapon. To the whiteboard!
On a more serious note, more people would defend themselves if it were still taught at an early age. Instead they are taught to crumble at the slightest resistance, never to fight the bullies, and it shows in the levels of crime and disrespect people must endure every day.
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Yah disgusting :o{
It never took. I’m not sure it could ever work on readers. We gots hero’s!!!!!
Driving out the other day, I came upon my grandbabies walking down the road with mom and dad. All three (1,3 and5) carrying their swords, battling dragons and bad guys and bears along the way.
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My kids never got real swords (although I almost bought them all bamboo wasters at a con recently…) but they had Nerf Swords and the battles were epic! And we taught them about guarding, and blocking, which concepts translate into other things, you know. Looks like fun, trains the brain. Good stuff.
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Pucv (that’s me, granpa in Creek- pronounced Poocha) carves wooden weapons for presents. I’d post pics if I could figure out how.
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Oh, my, yes. Whenever I hear about a massacre where the perp walked around shooting people unmolested, I wonder “nobody thought to hit him witn a chair? Spray him with a fire extinguisher? Throw something heavy at his head? What the +*%{##{ is wrong with people !?!”
I’m an aging bookworm, and. If I can think of swinging a fire extinguisher by its hose and staving some shooter-nut’s head in, anybody could.
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A lot of times, people freeze.
This is not a bad idea, if the baddie doesn’t know where you are or can’t reach you. So you don’t want to eliminate it as an instinct. But yes, when the baddie does know where you are and can get at you, people who throw things have a much better chance to stay alive.
OTOH, once somebody in a crowd of frightened people starts throwing things and jumping on people, usually everybody is doing it. So there’s that instinct too.
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I’m always afraid of freezing. It hasn’t happened yet, but it’s always a fear.
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Given your experiences as you’ve related them going back to school days, it’s unlikely you have to worry about it.
From your stories, the thing you’d have to worry about would be maintaining situational awareness during the attack instead of berserking. The better weakness, I think.
Aside: Consciously going still to assess the environment, which is a grand skill, is different from freezing up. Which is a good way to die quietly.
OT: Hope you had a grand and refreshing writer’s retreat!
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“From your stories, the thing you’d have to worry about would be maintaining situational awareness during the attack instead of berserking. The better weakness, I think.”
That’s a serious problem. I know.
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Oh! *Writer’s* retreat. I read that as “winter’s” and felt the need to howl, WHAT YEAR IS IT?!?
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What year is it?? Does It Effing MATTER? WINTER IS COMING!!!
Don’t you watch the news? There’s a polar vortex! Climate Change! There’s no time to
thinkwaste — Winter IS Coming!LikeLike
Hey, it is VERY chilly for the end of July around here. We hit a record overnight low last night.
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I feel very… rested. Slept a lot. Guess I needed it?
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Yay! Rested is good.
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I will not be tempted to tell you to go to bed when it’s late.
I will not be tempted to tell you to go to bed when it’s late.
I will not be tempted to tell you to go to bed when it’s late.
I will not be tempted to tell you to go to bed when it’s late.
I will not be tempted to tell you to go to bed when it’s late…
(Runs, dodging, throwing up distractions, such as things that appear to be Heinlein books)
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Heinlein chaff. Hm. Sneaky.
Might backfire, though. If she see’s you throwing good copies of Heinlein around willy-nilly she might get — irritated. o_O
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Shh… don’t tell her this, but they’re not real. The idea is to keep her busy saving them long enough to get away. You don’t think I’d throw REAL Heinlein books like that, do you?
Of course, when she finds out they’re copies of Sturgeon’s “Venus Plus X”, I might be in bigger trouble. :-)
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Yeah, I’m always afraid of freezing up too. It hasn’t happened yet, and the very thought terrifies me.
Actually, it’s happened once. Hubby startled me by mistake in the kitchen once. I had the split second to recognize him and NOT stab him – given my height probably fatally – but the adrenaline spike turned straight into “flight” mode and I actively scrunched myself into a tiny space… and burst into panicked tears. It must have taken him an hour to calm me down before my muscles would begin to un-tense.
To his credit he’s never done it again. We have this rule now that he MUST make a noise we both recognize; it’s not a word, that tells me he’s home.
But I’ve never frozen in an actual fight. Like I’ve said before, it’s a switch that just… turns on.
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A lot of times, people freeze.
About the only cure I know of for it is to “know” what you’re going to do, at least vaguely– my head-space for someone doing threatening is to turn, face and “bristle.” I don’t REMEMBER learning this, but it’s what you do with cows. :)
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” I don’t REMEMBER learning this, but it’s what you do with cows. :)”
With everything: dogs, roosters, IRS agents…….
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Random drugged up guys yelling at you about how they own the road (literally) and you’re making their friend’s dog bark…..
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Especially them!
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Which is the whole doctrine of practice until it’s automatic. If it is necessary for the military to do so, it’s necessary for anyone who might be in a hazardous situation.
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I think the “you can’t know until it happens” folks are going off of the “total script” method– I go off of a “they do X, I do Y” thing, not an “X, Y, Z, ABC” script.
I honest to God do not have an expectation of “what they will do next.” What they CAN do, sure, but a before-I-meet-them expectation of what they WILL do? No way.
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I don’t know if a “total script” is required, although it can come in handy. In certain situations, being able to fall back on autopilot when things go sideways is very handy.
Now I’m thinking of three decades ago when I managed to shatter my ankle in the rock quarry at Bronson Cavern. (You may have seen it as the Bat Cave or the Green Hornet’s lair.) This is in Griffith Park, in the middle of Los Angeles, but still some distance from civilization.
I managed to slip and fall, twisting my ankle enough to cause a spiral fracture with a “butterfly fragment”.
I knew, in principle, about splinting broken bones with sticks and strips of cloth, and I had a knife with me. And some nearby bushes. And some clothing. I learned, through experience that sticks and strips of cloth will only do so much. They can quiet a loud roar to a less loud roar, but no way are you walking out on a shattered ankle. At least the broken ends of the bone didn’t rub against each other quite as much.
Ultimately, what served the most was a passage from The Book of Survival by Anthony Greenbank (still in print, I see):
I think that dictum will probably help more than any number of scripts you squirrel away in memory.
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Thankfully, my brain views it in if/then measures.
“IF pain bad, THEN evaluate:
IF option to pain, THEN take.
IF no option, THEN deal (until passout– and no, not freaking joking, did this Monday; not always from sheer damage, straight pain works)”
For the threat situation, I guess I’m odd– my husband has had to explain to people (because I didn’t see there was something to explain) that I don’t HAVE a “this will happen next” if I don’t have “enough” information.
Almost all bad guy situations are not enough, because I really don’t expect people to do bad stuff. I know it’s an option, so I prepare for it, but it’s like being prepared to deal with a vegan, gluten free person on a beef ranch. I do it because I believe it’s right, not because I believe it’s probable.
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I have the same problem Fox. My first reaction is WTF?
I draw a line. Up to that point I usually am laughing, (which people find disconcerting for some reason ;o} ), but touch me or mine and I know what to do.
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TOTAL DIGRESSION:
I adore your icon.
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Thanx! (I’m rather fond of it myself :-)
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Is it Jabberwocky? I can’t see it very well.
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It’s actually a photo of one of my t-shirts, suitably cropped.
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Before a class started last year, several of my classmates and I ended up talking about this sort of thing. Most of them said they didn’t know what to do, and I said I’d start throwing things if we couldn’t get the door locked before a shooter came in. Books, chairs, computers, whatever comes to hand, I said, because he can’t get us all before we get him, and it sure beats just waiting to get shot.
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*grim chuckle* how many said that would get you killed faster?
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None, actually. I think they’d have helped. That might be because I live in a small city with a lot of rural areas around it (and a lot of hunting). People here pretty much know that it’s the person behind the weapon that’s the problem. My classmates just weren’t in the habit of thinking this way about possible threats.
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Kudos to your classmates; that’s a completely different reaction than the ones I’ve had. The private girls’ school I went to had a rash of kidnapping (this was in the Philippines) and the girl held for ransom because the school attracted a number of wealthy folks – and parents who weren’t that rich, but worked hard enough to afford the tuition. I found out about this because one of my classmates freaked out when she found out I used public transport to get to school. I kept at least two sharp pencils stuck to my ponytail at the time (before I cut my hair short) a box cutter and a Parker pen in my blouse pocket. I was told that I’d get killed faster if I fought back, and raped if I wasn’t.
I pointed out that if I was using public transport, then if the kidnappers had any brains at all, I wasn’t rich enough to afford a car and a private driver. But pretty much school policy was a student was taking a risk for going outside campus on her own for a while.
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I paint miniatures when I’m not avoiding writing. The wife paints with water colors. Oddly enough there’s usually a can of either spray paint or fixative with a trigger on it by most of the doors into or out of the house. Along with other weapons of destruction scattered about, including a 36 inch osage orange cane.
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“Standing and doing battle may not be the optimal choice,”
Movement is life. Get off the X, return fire. Shoot then to the ground, then staple them there.
If you’re “uncomfortable” around guns you have 2 choices, put your big girl panties on and get comfortable, or learn these words:
“Yes master, of course master. Please don’t don’t hurt me master”.
RE: Magazine retention. Current doctrine is to retain *all* magazines unless you are in DIRECT close contact because on the modern battle field you will never make it back to get the one you dropped.
This is just as true for those of us who aren’t military, although generally we’re going to be defending our homes.
Then again, at bad breath distance you do what time allows.
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Well, that wound up at the wrong place in the tree.
Grrr.
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That sounds logical.
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William
You do that last part in most states out of the Self-Deffense box into murder. Just ask Jerome Ersland…
http://abcnews.go.com/US/oklahoma-pharmacist-dead-robbers-accomplices-life-prison/story?id=14053802
Once the threat stops being a threat, anything else is seen as excessive and no longer considered Self-Defense. You are no longer defending yourself!!!!
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Perhaps the law has changed, but in recent memory such excessive use of force (especially by a woman defending against an attacking male) was prima facie proof of panic, i.e., temporary insanity and thus an excuse from legal responsibility.
As I was told it, the court found the defender only two shots to end the attack, the fact he emptied, reloaded and emptied again proved he was temporarily insane.
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RES,
Your talking two different legal defenses strategies.
Temporary insanity is not Self-Defense (SD). If you are claiming that you lost your mind then do that, but don’t confuse that with a claim of SD.
This is a generalization and my understanding. I’m not a lawyer seek competent representation, because state laws are often quite similar, but interpersted diferently between them. Know your local laws and statute and how they are enforced.
Jerome is sitting in jail to day, because he claimed SD when he had stepped over the line.
:(
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My initial statement did not address the question of self-defense. I looked simply at the possible “justification” of excessive force.
Temporary insanity and self defense are not mutually exclusive, although if you can sell the jury on one you probably don’t want to argue the other as well.
Self-defense covers the initial presentation and discharge of weapon, temporary insanity covers the excessive execution. As either one should be sufficient, employing both would likely undermine each the other.
The example of woman defending against a man is used merely because of the heightened juror (and public) sympathy, even if she is built like Roseanne Barr and he like Don Knotts. Our culture is tilted toward favoring the woman in any male/female argument (note recent video demonstration of couples staging abusive arguments between a couple and bystander response.)
Of course, as in all such cases, the juror inclination matters more than the facts of the law.
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RES,
Temporary insanity and self defense is mutually exclusive, because at the beginning of the trial you have to enter a plea guilty or not guilty, and if not guilty why. Not me. It was me, but…
For a claim of self-defense to be excepted you have to show that the assailant had: intent, means and opportunity, and that you did every thing in your power to avoid or prevent the incident – preclusion.
In this light let’s look at the Jerome case.
Jerome was not charged for deffending himself. He was charged with shooting an unarmed individual that no longer had the means or opportunity to continue doing harm. The initial SD event had past. Even though it didn’t feel that way to him. Killing some in the heat of the moment is not normal considarded justifiable, but if you are going to make that case, you need to do so from the beginning.
As to the Rosann Bar, Don Knots issue, It’s your job or your lawyers job to explain what ‘Disparity of Force’ is and how it aplies to your situation.
Yes people have misconceptions about the law and what is and isn’t SD or other justifiable uses of force and they make up juries. It your job as a defendant to disabuse them of their mistaken beliefs.
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Josh,
You will understand if I do not accept your word on this? As neither of us is a lawyer experienced in capital case law, neither of us can argue with authority. It still seems to me that temporary insanity does not void a self-defense argument. For example, the perception of threat might have been consequent to the temporary insanity, and the threat may also have been real. Applying an adage from another area, just because you are paranoid does not mean nobody is out to get you.
The universality of the Jerome case is, I hope we can agree, of limited determinant value. It has been a very long time since the instructor in my college “Evidence & Argument in Public Communications” course told me about the case of the exoneration of the person who emptied, reloaded and emptied the firearm and I doubt it worth researching. But in the instance described, the determination of temporary insanity was predicated on the use of excessive force; a person in his right mind would have stopped after the first few shots, ergo the defendant was not in his right mind when he put the additional bullets in the assailant (nice argument for wasting ammo.)
But if the defendant had merely fired three times he should still have been able to argue self-defense if there was genuine cause to fear for his life.
But these are separable, not contradictory, issues.
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RES,
I think we are hung up on how each of us is using excessive.
Most statutes have similar wording something a long the lines of, “…minimum force needed…”
We ask, “What level force would Reasonable Person* use?”
And now we are definatly outside the scope of a blog post discussion, because what we, you or I, might find reasonable twelve others might not.
I’m going to try anyways.
If you are arguing that you acted in SD, you are saying you only used that force deemed reasonable and necessary. So, saying any force used was do to temporary mental incapacity or insanity undermines your claim that you acted reasonably, if you are incapable of reason at the time.
That said if it is found that you did use excessive force, it could be used as a mitigating circumstance to try to get a shorter sentence.
I really just want people to question their beliefs about what is and isn’t justifable use of force and Self-Defense, because a lot of Self-Defense wisdom out there will land you in jail for manslaughter.
* http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/_/dict.aspx?rd=1&word=Reasonable+person+standard
:-)
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“I think we are hung up on how each of us is using excessive.
Most statutes have similar wording something a long the lines of, “…minimum force needed…””
The answer is ‘shot placement’, no emptying of magazines necessary.
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Mobious,
But if the assailant is only poking you in the chest with his finger, taking your gun out and shooting him is going to be seen as using excessive force.
It not over using the force you have chosen but choising the right amount of force to resolve the encounter and no more.
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Yes, I see that. I was referring more to the fact that if you are forced to shoot them in self-defense, you really should be finishing them off as a public service. The “law” is meant to discourage this for various reasons, none good, probably. Precise shooting avoids the issue.
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Mobius,
Fair enough.
But I would sugest not bronging this up, if you ever have to defend yourself. If asked you just wanted to stop them. (IMO)
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Yeah, thanks. Probably shouldn’t have said it at all.
I keep thinking of the national blaze of gun fire that would transform us into L. Niel Smith’s alternate universe without the need for a wormhole.
Now I really must go before it gets too hot out there.
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I hate when I leave a thought unsaid.
Correction:
[How do we determine minimum force?] We ask, “What level force would Reasonable Person* use?”
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One of the factors here is (disclaimer: IANAL, etc, etc, etc.) what is considered lethal force. In many situations with significant legal repercussions – mugger brandishing knife, abusive spouse, etc. – one thing a prosecutor is going to attempt to demonstrate is that the defendant had an option beside going for the gun. The counter to this that any competent defense attorney is going to demonstrate (usual disclaimers apply, as usual) is that fists are lethal. Similarly, sticks and stones can be lethal. Walls can be lethal. Basically, while the human body is an amazing piece of bioengineering, it’s still pretty darn fragile, and the oddest little thing can induce a permanent system shutdown. In concealed carry classes, this is emphasized, as you need to know the legal ramifications of drawing your firearm on another human being. The flip side is that you use the force necessary to stop the attack. Since most people – even those who spend a LOT of time around firearms – are not trained in anatomy and physiology, psychology, etc, etc, the best way (look into firearms and SD laws in your jurisdiction, consult an attorney, etc.) to stop an attack with a firearm is to shoot the attacker until they stop attacking. If they flee at the sight of your massive weapon, lucky you: you didn’t have to shoot anybody today. If they take a couple of rounds and run away (why are you carrying a .25 ACP?), fantastic. Call the cops, report it, whatever. If you have to empty the magazine; empty the magazine. Just stop shooting when they stop moving, or you’re going to be in a world of legal hurt. Sidenote: you’re likely to be in a world of legal hurt if you have to draw your firearm on someone, anyway. Especially if you live in a locality that has a somewhat jaundiced view of the right of self-defense. For example, Hawaii requires you to flee, even if you’re in your own home. If you can. If you demonstrate that flight was impossible, you *should* be fine. There are other confounding factors, such as endemic racism. I was told to expect to pay in the vicinity of $100k dealing with a defensive shooting situation.
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Much better to have kilt them with one or two shots. Practice practice.
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KilteDave,
Yes, Thank You.
The goal is to stop them and no more.
I don’t know why it’s so hard to get my thoughts out of my head and onto paper.
*Sigh*
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No worries. The other part to remember is, “I was afraid for my life (or the life of my wife, husband, child, stranger onna street, etc.).” Usually, you have to understand what that means, i.e. assailant was close enough to be a genuine threat (see: Tueller drill) and had means and motive to engage in violence upon your person, and then understanding that the naked ape needs nothing more to kill than the equipment, open bracket; deity of choice or none; close bracket, gave him, her, zie or it.
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Kilte,
Yup.
:-)
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William,
Fair Enough, it’s your life.
I just want to re iterate that 12 members of a jury might not see it the same way.
They might ask why you where unable to just cover the assailant until help arrives. You did call for help and back up? If not why?
“What if’s” and “What might happens” are often not seen as enough justification to shoot a person on the ground; seen as having no means or opportunity and not showing any intent to do further harm; i.e., was just lying there.
Jerome did exactly what his military training told him and for simulare reasons as those you expressed here. Jerome is in prison today because the jury found that the original incident of self-defense was resolved. One assailant had ran off the other was on the ground no longer atempting to cause harm. Jerome was seen to have left the scene then having chossen to come back then fired two shots into the down person. Jerome failed to convence the jurry that the downed individual still posed enough of a threat to justify the use of deadly force at the time of the last two shots.
You can introduce into evidence that you feered that the individual could get up and continue causing harm, but they are going to ask was he?
As I’ve said it’s offten not what you believe is justified, but what 12 random people are going to feel is justified, that will determine if you go to prison. Fair or Not, that is our legal system (in the USA).
William you might find Marc MacYoung’s book “In the name of Self-Defense” of value. It makes a lot stronger case than I can make in this short blog comment. Also, goes into greater detail on what to lookout for, because everyone always says be aware, but few anser the question, “For what?” What are prefight indicators? What are some interview techniques used by criminals to determine whether or not to rob or harm you? What is a fringe zone?…
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I wouldn’t say Abner Diallo had intent, I wouldn’t say Abner Diallo had means, I’d say opportunity was certainly arguable. Notice that a claim of self defense prevailed. Might be a double standard might add reasonable man to the standard.
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P.S.
Res, the term commonly used for this is ‘disparity of force.’ Women are genenetaly seen as being physically weeker than men, and because of this a higher level of force is needed and ‘allowed.’ Same with multiple attackers and the like.
The catches is if the woman is 6’2″ and strapping. The guy is 5’2″ skinny the disparity of forces is the other way.
The books I’ve listed do a better job of explanning this. Plus, my understanding of this could be flawed, so take what I say with a grain of salt and do your own research. A lot of what we think we know is media and public myth.
My2Cents
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If we were able to use the cop standard of “I feared for my life” and be held to the same standard or lack thereof it would be so much easier
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jselvy,
This is a little over simplistic, because civilians just claim Self-Defense even when it’s not. Not all police use of force falls under excessive, even if we feel they over use the “fear for our life” defense.
There are bad actor on both sides that taint peoples percetion and make it hard on those who have legitimate uses if force.
Statistically cops are no more likely to break laws or use excessive force than the general public. (I’ll proved likes to the stats if needed.)
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P.S. To be clear I’m for cops and civilians being held to the same standerds not a lessening or loosening of those standards.
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It’s a big, violent world, and while violent crime is currently on the decline in the US (at least in part due to those of us who choose to carry anywhere it’s not expressly illegal :) ), there are some indications that the sort of violence that plagues central and south america might be heading our way. At least until the gangs realize that lynching might have gone out of style, but there’s a lot of people in this country who just aren’t fashion conscious.
There are different threats and different possible scenarios. If you are in my home you have one chance to leave (the declaration “F! someone’s in the house” is your last and final warning), and then I’m going to stop you. If there’s more than one person things will definately turn up a notch.
However if it’s an attempt at a replay of the Westgate Mall shooting in Nairobi or what happened in Belsan?
Different solutions for different problems.
The primary mechanism for stopping an attacker with a pistol is loss of inter-cranial blood pressure due to blood loss.
When they achieve a horizontal position due to this sort of blood loss they tend to regain consciousness. Depending on the situation (additional attackers etc.) you may not want them at your back while you work on the rest of their crew.
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Hmm… spray fixative – and maybe a lighter to turn it into a torch if they cover their eyes and charge at you?
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After getting ambushed once too often in Junior High, I lived at condition orange for five years. 1) I don’t recommend it but 2) As with others, it made finding weapons at hand instinctive. Right now I have for distance: mug of hot tea, three heavy books, full coffee pot. Closer in: oven cleaner and carpet foam, two bottles of soda I could shake, aim, and use to blind. Close in: knives, kettle of still very-hot water, cast-iron 8″ frying pad (with no-stick ceramic lining for easy clean-up. [Just kidding, Ossifer. This is a thought experiment and nothing more.])
How you carry yourself also makes a difference. Alert, head up, shoulders back, a polite but cool expression on your face, one hand free at all times, moving briskly? You’ve just told the casual predator that you might not be his best choice of targets. Oh yes, and don’t stand or walk like you sit when you’re typing. Yes, you. Shoulders back, tuck your rump in, head up, just like your mother and Sr. Mary Yardstick told you to. Don’t move like prey.
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I think my habit of walking very erect and straight-backed goes to joining the Civil Air Patrol at 11 and spending a lot of the next eight years drilling and marching. It gives one a certain demeanour. Yes, living at high alert is exhausting, but in time certain things become habit, and are no more onerous than looking both ways before crossing the street.
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How you carry yourself also makes a difference.
I’ve said before how I’m normally functionally invisible when going about my business, but the one time I walked through a bad neighborhood after having an argument, when I was still pissed, I eventually noticed people crossing the street before I got near them. Apparently when in a mood like that, I present as “Don’t even look at me funny, or I’ll rip your arms off and sodomize you with them.”
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Loose arm sodomizing is rather time intensive as opposed to loose arm beating.
Leads me to think I don’t wanna piss Wayne off. He’ll take his own sweet time expressing his rage.
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Nah, I just LOOK like I will. Really, I’m lazy, so I’ll just do something like cave a knee in backwards.
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Yeah. That’s better. Thanks. :|
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Yeah, just beat them to death with the sticky end.
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I giggle every time I watch this:
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Condition Orange? You constantly knew who you would target first if it hit the fan? For five years? Or did you mean hot yellow?
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Orange outside the house, yellow inside the house. It was that bad at school. I was constantly on the alert for who in the classroom would make the first move, since that’s how they went after me at lunch and after school.
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From someone who had it almost as bad, my regrets that they all survived unmaimed.
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But Cedar, that’s victim-blaming! Don’t you know the only solution to violence is to completely change society?
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They have been trying to change society for how long now? I think it’s time for them to face reality and shatter their illusions about what humanity really is like. Women are no delicate helpless little flowers, no matter how much they’d like to make us think we are. :D
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Those who do say this, I wonder: do they intend on hiding until society has been changed to their satisfaction?
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That is a very good question. I think they hide behind a shrill, open mouth.
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And they will keep,trying to change society until they have constructed one where they are in charge …. Whereupon control will be wrested from by some thug like Stalin and they will be liquidated.
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“and they will be liquidated.”
Every cloud….
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If you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the precipitate!
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You’re a bad woman.
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Johnny was a chemist’s son, but Johnny is no more:
What Johnny thought was H2O?
Was H2SO4.
:P
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Ack! Just got it.
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I think it invalid, however. Isn’t it possible to be neither part of the solution nor part of the precipitate, but merely part of the scum floating on top?
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hmmmm… sadly, more often than not
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Or the catalyst!
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That’s a kind of precipitate, isn’t it?
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The best way to change a society is to kill all the members of it, I suppose.
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Resistance is futile? (That’s what they’d like to think anyway…)
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Or “RESISTANCE IS USELESS!!!!!” ?
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They wish!
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I can imagine them reading horrifying bad poetry to us.
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My response, as rude as it would be, would probably be *pull out ipod, put in earbuds, turn on Two Steps from Hell* – this is assuming I can’t get away.
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“Defenders of the Earth” gives you a nice 1-2-3 punching rhythm. *glances around* Why are y’all giving me that look again?
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*laughs* Yeah, that’s a good one.
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Resistance is voltage divided by current. (Runs)
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Sign in Cooper Union’s EE lab (and probably every other college’s too):
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One of the members of the committee to draft a harassment policy has stated that we’ll have to “change the culture” of the club to really deal with the problem. I suggested maybe it’s time to dissolve the club’s current culture and elect a new one. Not sure if she caught the reference.
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I suggest that one of the habits to get into is listening. Keep track of the sounds around you (or lack thereof) so that your attention is alerted when this changes. For some reason that seems to work with less conscious attention than sight. And you get information about places that you are not looking or are out of sight.
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That’s a good point. I can’t tell how many times I’ve noticed that things have changed when sounds change, without anyone else noticing.
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Unfortunately I have a neurological impairment that means I don’t know from which direction the sounds are coming nor how far away they are.
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I’m basically deaf in one ear.
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“Unfortunately I have a neurological impairment that means I don’t know from which direction the sounds are coming nor how far away they are.”
That’s enough to give you a crick.
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Family used to play hide-and-seek on hot summer evenings. One uncle had been in the USMC in the South Pacific during WWII. He was one sneaky bastard. (Learning to play hide and seek from the Japanese could do that for you.) We used to tag runners with a knotted towel. The only way to know where Uncle Cliff was would be IF he made a noise — usually deliberately. And the sudden THUNK! of the towel hitting you upside the haid.
M
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I have gotten into that habit through work. When you are constantly outside well after midnight you learn the need to observe your environment (especially since if you do it long enough – even though actually bad incidents in this area have been very rare, I know of one woman who got raped and a couple have been beaten during the last 25 years – still sooner or later something scary is going to happen), but because I need my eyes on where I’m going, and looking for the next mail box or slot I can’t use all that much time looking around. So I learned to listen. Fortunately I have good hearing.
I have also seen several paper carriers running on their route while wearing earbuds. Especially the younger ones. *sigh*
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My Current recomened read on this subject is “In the Name of Self-Defense” by Marc MacYoung.
I suggest, if nothing else, try the sample chapters.
As to the Title, it might be a way of life on the battlefield, paranoia is a crapy way to live your life as a general rule (Pun in 10 did).
Three other books to have in your library are:
“Facing Violence” & “Conflict Communications” by Rory Miller.
“Scaling Force” by Rory Miller and Lawrence Kane.
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““In the Name of Self-Defense” by Marc MacYoung”
I am reading that book currently. His stuff and Rory Miller’s are both excellent. Kathy Jackson’s Cornered Cat is also good.
http://www.corneredcat.com/
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Ray,
Yup.
A good interview/chat for those not familiar.
Campfire Chat #1 with Rory Miller, Kathy Jackson & Toby Cowern
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The color scale (“Condition White”, etc.) for level of alertness was created by Jeff Cooper and has its fans and detractors.
http://www.policeone.com/police-trainers/articles/2188253-Cooper-s-colors-A-simple-system-for-situational-awareness/
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Cooper’s color scale was simply a means for him to describe what he and fellow officers did instinctively on a daily basis. It focuses on situational awareness and threat assessment. It also helps explain why so many folks after an event will claim “I never saw it coming.” Condition White is after all a “I’m perfectly safe, nothing can happen to me” outlook that far to many seem to be permanently fixated on. Thing is in the real world you can go from white, to yellow, to orange, to red in the blink of an eye.
I think Cedar’s point, which I thoroughly agree with, is that when the fit hits the shan is not the time to start thinking about available options. That bit of situational evaluation should have been done way back when you were snuggled safe and secure in condition White. As things escalate your focus should be on a detailed threat assessment and how available resources might be applied to counter that threat.
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Just to illustrate, the eight-person unit I’m in has had a rash of car crashes this month, after most of a decade without any incidents. Last Wednesday, I was the third person run into. I was basically “condition white”, slowing down for the traffic in front of me on the freeway when suddenly I noticed the person behind me hadn’t slowed down.
Unfortunately, this came to my awareness when he slammed in to the back of my van. Immediate “condition red”.
Fortunately, we were both civilized about the whole thing.
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This post makes me feel better about occasionally thinking “What do I have at hand that I cold hurt someone with?” One I had read about (but never heard if it worked) was lacing your keys between your fingers so you can punch someone in the eyes if it comes to that.
Once The Little Mouse is old enough we’ll have to start playing awareness games. Her mother might not like it but such is life.
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I understand that it does work – and that there are several other effective targets besides an eye: temple, throat, et al. Probably worth checking with a real self-defense trainer about.
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“…and also a coffee carafe that is usually at least half-full of near-boiling liquid (don’t make me waste my caffeine).”
Forced spillage of the black ichor of the gods!?!?!? That’s worth an extra beating or three before law enforcement arrives, all by itself.
Oh, and if you’re in Missouri, don’t make the bad guy clean up the mess. That’s forced labor and forced labor is slavery, and slavery is a felony (and no, I’m not joking).
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What if you pay them? Still labor forced at gunpoint, but they’re receiving compensation.
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Forced labor is forced labor. It’s the law, it doesn’t have to make sense.
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You can use the bad guy as a mop; you just can’t give him one.
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Don’t bring a knife to a coffee fight:
http://www.gunnuts.net/2009/10/26/dont-bring-a-knife-to-a-coffee-fight/
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And BTW, I consider the cup of coffee to be more effective than the .25ACP caliber popgun he was also carrying …
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A buddy of mine killed one guy and seriously wounded a second with a .25.
The cops brought him a bottle of whiskey and a box of ammo. Suggested next time he use a larger caliber because only one died.
Different time, different place.
But yeah if you shoot me with a .25 and I notice it, I’m going to be irritated.
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Yeah. I lost a perfectly goof Colt Woodsman to the local constabulary when I loaned it to a friend who was dealing with some break-ins we were having at the theater I was working at. The perp didn’t die but that little .22 really messed up his insides. It took over a year to get the gun back and they hadn’t bothered to maintain it. Durned thing was rusted all over, inside and out. When I objected I was told I was lucky to get it back at all.
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Among the many reasons not to use a collectable (or sentimental piece) as a self defense firearm is that it will be taken into evidence, post incident, and while in evidence it will be allowed to rust into uselessness.
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I heard of a case where police confiscated an antique Japanese samurai sword. At least one of the cops handled it without wiping the fingerprints off the blade. By the time it was returned, the fingerprints were permanently etched in to the metal.
He sued, prevailed, and collected the full value of the sword, to the astonishment of everyone involved.
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True story from my dad, before I was born. A lady in KC found out that her husband was cheating on her. He came home, she shot him six times in the belly with a .25. He was sitting on the couch when KCPD showed up and he walked to the ambulance.
Another true story, as told by a medical examiner. Bad guy holds up a convenience store with a .25. Doesn’t get enough money, shoots the clerk once in the neck, takes out the carotid artery, clerk bled out and died. Another guy was pumping gas outside. When the shot goes off in the store, he hops in and speeds away. Bad guy comes out and shoots one shot at the car as it was speeding away. It’s summer time, so the driver’s window is down and his left hand in on top of the steering wheel. Bullet goes through the open window, in under the left arm, and hits the heart. Driver, obviously was dead at the scene. Both were, obviously, the proverbial golden BB.
Shot placement is everything.
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I knew someone who was shot point-blank with a .22 while wearing a puffy jacket. He got a bandaid and bruised knuckles from decking the idiot who was shocked he didn’t fall over dead.
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Glover’s Law: If what you got is all that you brought, hit the right spot and hit it a lot.
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Poetry!
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no bout adoubt it
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Like the elderly lady last week who threw the pot of boiling water onto the thug who’d pushed her into her kitchen. As several gun bloggers pointed out, it would have hurt less if she’d stabbed him with a kitchen knife.
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Ow.
And: Yay!!
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Then there’s also the older lady who was approached at a gas station by a guy who demanded to know where her purse was. She pointed in the car, he leaned in to retrieve it, and she started slamming the door on him.
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We need a national cheering section for old ladies that don’t take any guff.
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Rule #1: Do not act incautiously when confronting little bald wrinkly smiling men. Or little old ladies.
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Also worth noting: Never pick a fight with an old man. He might just shoot you.
Brazen young men should be reminded of this. Frequently.
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That’s the plan. Punching would likely damage me more than the recipient these days.
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Ask your search engine about the two NY punks who thought a 76-year-old man closing his restaurant would be easy prey. Try the key words “Jack Dempsey.”
For that matter, there is an abundance of stories about punks trying to intimidate old marines who faced the Japanese Imperial Army in the
junglesrain-forests of the Aouthern Pacific.LikeLike
like the video of the kid trying to pick the pocket of an old Marine. Nice demonstration of two things: why you best keep your wallet in your front pocket, and how defending oneself while one hand is trapped, and you are bent over at the waist is a bit hard … especially with a fist beating your head to a pulp.
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Elderly ladies are very often tougher than anyone gives them credit for. It is often how they lived long enough to be Elderly.
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Yes indeedy. When I lived just outside of Atlanta (well, back then it was outside of Atlanta, but I digress in this digression), the MARTA transit cops had to pull a little old lady off a would-be mugger not far from “my” stop. He tried to grab her purse, she maced him. Then she sprayed him again. And again. When she ran out of spray, she belabored him about the head and shoulders with her handbag until the cops pulled her off. Apparently they had a great deal of difficulty, because they were trying so hard not to laugh at the pathetic pleas of the pulped perp whimpering “get her off, get her off me, for Gawd’s sake, get her off!”
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When I was younger, I was acquainted with a lady in her eighties who went to the range every month with .25 cal. Baretta and made better scores than the local cops.
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My Grandmothers weapon of choice for her handbag was a .357.
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My wife, who is a grandmother, carries a 454 SRH Alaskan loaded with 45 colt.
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Why is this not on the news?!?!?
“Little old lady beats the snot out of young idiot.”
“Stay at home mom scalds moron to death when he breaks into her kitchen.”
“Guy changing his tire beats idiot do death who demands his keys or his life.”
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One of my Adopted Nephews ran afoul of a couple of “gentlemen” who attempted to car-jack him. It turned out he was a better fighter than they were, or at least nastier.
After the car-jackers were laid out on the ground, the two members of Glendale’s Finest who had seen the whole thing got out of their car and took the two into custody.
I don’t think that made the news either.
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….I really can’t type out what I think of that.
Right up with “mass shootings prevented” not counting situations where folks stopped the murderer after two deaths.
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(Mass shooting is three or more deaths. So you can prevent them, by stopping before three, or… not. If not, then obviously, there CANNOT be any mass shootings prevented, only those ended.)
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Always handy for the gun grabbers. They can handwave away those incidents where the shooter was stopped and pretend self-defense is useless. :-/
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More peculiar lefty logic. Three or more weren’t killed so it wasn’t a mass shooting he prevented. DOH!
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Likely it was in “local” news only. Lots of things happen that make “local” news but don’t go national.
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The one who slammed the door on the thief WAS on the local news. The community is a bit small for it to turn into a National news story.
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I disagree. If she’d stabbed him with a kitchen knife, her hand might have slipped on the handle and she might have cut herself. That would have smarted, especially if she needed stitches.
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Ha! My coffee is so thick, you could cut it with a knife.
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So you could still hurl it at your attacker, it’ll burn, and IT WILL STICK LIKE TAR.
That’s WORSE than a brief splash burn! *evil cackle*
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There’s a thought that just might cause me to freeze, “Throw my coffee?!?!?” Shudder
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You can always make more coffee.
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lead’s still cheaper, barely.
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You and my mother (all honor to her) must have the same taste in coffee. Very simple: she only likes the best.
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Yeah! We have a jura. You put in (good) beans and water, twiddle dials and push buttons, and any sort of coffee product you want comes out. Really cool.
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“The Gods Must Be Crazy” won my eternal fandom with the initial scene of a grandma style office lady– darker version of my kids’ great aunt/godmother– throwing a cup at a terrorist and single-shotting him.
Changed my view of The Options, for sure.
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Motion is relative. A weapon can also be something you move your attacker towards–e.g. a wall, railing, edge of a desk or counter. And you don’t have to be super-strong to do this. My aikido instructors would make joking references about throwing a real-life opponent into a handy fire-hydrant for extra effect ;-)
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That sounds like Yoshinkai style. Much tighter circles and a… more relaxed attitude toward whether the “uke” encounters a wall in his travels.
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*little light-bulb* Hey, that’s kinda what I’d do during childhood fights–going dead weight at the right time is USEFUL.
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When I was a kid I learned that I have a gap where “proportionate response” goes. I don’t know when to stop, so I don’t fight unless I’m willing to take it to the pine box. It didn’t help that when I was first bullied, my Vietnam Vet dad had his Vietnam Vet Tunnel Rat friends teach me how to fight their way.
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Vaguely related, that is why it is bad when women fight.
Even a big woman isn’t use to being an equal fighter in a physical fight, so we tend to be nasty, out of proportion, etc. (Actually playing with a story based on this; problem is that I’ll need to be much better at writing characters to make it work. Standard “body switch” type scifi thing.)
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Is there a list somewhere, of all the Hun’s published work?
and more immediately, where is yours Fox?
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Still very much in progress. I really suck at it, but I”ve got the story ideas and I’ll keep playing with it.
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hmmm… same boat, and I didn’t even see you there. :o)
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I’m behind the pile of Child Products. :D
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Well, this is a start:
https://www.goodreads.com/group/bookshelf/104359-hoyt-s-huns?order=d&per_page=30&shelf=huns-as-authors&sort=date_added&view=main
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Sarah herself goes here:
https://www.goodreads.com/group/bookshelf/104359-hoyt-s-huns?order=d&per_page=30&shelf=sarah-a-hoyt&sort=date_added&view=main
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I’m slow, but I figured Sarah’s out.
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Thanks Mary.
uh…MZB is a Hun?
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Mary Catelli is and has stories in those.
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cool
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*raises hand* I’ll message you the ones I’ve co-authored when I’ve got the links handy, to add to the list, if that’s alright with you. Probably via LJ message because I haven’t figured out the message capability here on WP.
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I believe there’s already a GoodReads entry someone else made for mine:
(Don’t mean for that to get turned into the huge picture, but WP will.)
I also have a 2-day freebie running today and tomorrow.
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Here’s the goodreads link. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/20503897-kiwi
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I got in the habit when I was younger to carry my keys over the back of my right hand. Just the way they are place makes certain individuals think twice before accosting me. Even though I have been ill, I still have the reflexes that I trained in karate. Plus situational awareness has been part of my entire life. When you are out in the wild, you need to know the dangers– they can kill you.
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IMO one aspect of carrying keys is having them quickly available to unlock your car or house door. If you’re hunting for your keys, you’re not going to be able to know who’s coming up to you.
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As an aside, house and car keys should be the only two keys on a ring of their own, for security reasons and to preserve the ignition switch in your car. More of them die from the swinging weight of keys than anything else.
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Yes – you carry the key you need between your thumb and index finger and the rest across the back of your hand. ;-)
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Even though the buttons are too easy to accidentally push, my car key has the remote as a surround on the head of the key, making it easy to use as a stabbing weapon.
Of course, then I would run the danger of breaking the remote and potentially being unable to start the car (I don’t know if it has a computer chip that identifies it built in).
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Situational awareness is not paranoia, and is not at all taxing to maintain. I find it much more difficult to NOT pay attention, personally. Criminals don’t want any resistance, so even if you are a tiny little thing or using a walker, or both, they’ll usually leave you alone if you are alert.
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I have lived in some bad neighborhoods. Walking with your head up and in a fashion that says you know where you are going– is also good. I always check the back seat before getting into a car.
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I actually have no issues with keeping it with Big Huge Earphones on, but I also tend to have my head always moving because I’m looking for Neat Stuff, and in a good area.
It’s good, but there are still totally random stoners; I’ve been hit in the head with a can of (thank God) mostly empty beer before. (If it had been full, I would’ve been brained, not stunned. I also didn’t have music at the time.)
I’ve also been known to slip my knife out for easy slashing, though. Few grabbers are OK with having a cut, especially a surprise one.
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Headset on head and not turned on is good camouflage, IMO. Especially if it looks big and decorative. Or music low enough to not drown out all sound.
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According to a philosophy originally put forth by Lt.Col. Dave Grossman people fall into one of three categories: sheep, wolves, or sheepdogs. The sheep will meander through life bleating and baaing with not a hint of situational awareness. The wolves are predators pure and simple. The sheepdogs feel an inherent obligation to protect not only themselves, but to also look after the sheep.
I do think this does a disservice to wolves who are rather noble animals. Wild feral dogs might be more appropriate, that or jackals.
My other issue is with what I would call a subset of the sheep class, the perennial victim, the sheep who spend all their time castigating the sheepdogs for failing to have perfect solutions for an imperfect world.
I have a strong hunch that near everyone here, certainly all the Huns, are of the sheepdog class. Otherwise y’all wouldn’t have found your way here.
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“this does a disservice to wolves ”
I always felt that way myself. :o)
Ditto on the Huns. It fairly evident.
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Perhaps you should poll some sheep and some sheepdogs for an alternative view.
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Eh. It’s a metaphor, and all of those – much like analogies – break down when pushed too far. As a sheepdog, I’d prefer if wolf was replaced with coyote or jackal. Maybe even hyena, though those are pretty cute as pups. Or kits or whatever they are when small and fuzzy.
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Yeah, all dogs, and I like dogs. Problem with using animals as a metaphor for people, is most animals are likeable.
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I do think this does a disservice to wolves who are rather noble animals.
Idealized, yes.
Realistically, (long string of curses) no.
The idealized is also an insult to sheep, although typing the very phrase pains a cattle woman like me.
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I don’t know about noble. They are very timid and sweet, unless you look like food. Very good at reading people, not so much for protection. Just don’t back them into a corner. Very different than domestic dogs, except for the general shape.
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Didn’t work. Here’s a picture.
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Nice canid couch! Looks comfy.
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Ah, kids, cats, and dogs– make relaxation look so lovely.
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I don’t mean tame (note, I say tame, not domesticated– in before random person asserts there’s no such thing as a tame wolf, though it should be obvious what I’m saying….) wolves, I mean the wild ones.
My folks’ area is being hit hard with the idealization of wolves…by people who live on the opposite side of the Cascades, and have successfully classified all losses of animals in their area to wolfpacks as “wild dogs.”
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If it’s after my livestock, I shoot it. I don’t care what it is.
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except raptors, they get a near miss.
We’ve reached an understanding.
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+1
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There are sheep and sheep. Old breeds like the churro that can stand on their own to an extent and have good survival instincts are one thing. The stereotypical vapid, panicky, stooooopid, sheep are another.
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When ever the SD coversation turns to Sheep & Sheepdogs I’m remind of this article/blog post:
http://theultimateanswertokings.blogspot.com/2009/07/of-sheep-wolves-sheepdogs-and-mutts.html
I’m a mutt. How about you?
;D
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In fact and metaphorically! Great blog, too. Thanks
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I find that changing their definition of things helps people realize that anything can be a weapon. For instance, you didn’t throw that guy off a building — you hit him with a planet. It’s all in how you look at things.
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Precisely, you become the weapon, anything else is simply a tool to carry out the force necessary to apply toward stopping your attacker.
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When the “no weapons allowed” signs went up at Flat State U, a fellow grad student (and former Marine) pointed at the sign and sighed, “Guess I’d better leave my brain at my apartment, then.”
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“Guess I’d better leave my brain at my apartment, then.”
Isn’t that the purpose of higher education? *runs*
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There were days . . .
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Red Headed Stranger– I like how you think.
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…. I actually wondered if stating ‘he ran into the planet,’ would work. It might, with some courts. Maybe.
(A recent tale of successful odd defense I’d heard was “You punch my emus, I punch you.”)
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Good news, with the rash of dog shooters out there, as I feel the same way about my dogs.
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Well, the guy in question ran a wildlife preserve, and some dickhead had figured out how to lure a half-grown youngster away to a place where it couldn’t be seen, and when alone, would hurt it – punching and kicking. You do NOT mess with a full grown emu.
Actually, reading that paragraph above that I just wrote, I realized with a sickening flip of my stomach that’s how someone would lure away a child to abuse.
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Until I got to Emu I thought you were talking about child abuse. There are several cases I’ve seen recently where teens did just that with a younger child. Sigh… sometimes I wonder if we are raising a generation of sociopaths.
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Yeah… The angry guy running a private wildlife preserve is considered ‘strange, reclusive, prefers the company of animals to people, but not the bad sort,’ and that only got reinforced on the local scale when the folks ’round heard about it.
I think the lack of teaching empathy – REAL empathy, not the fake, shallow crap being fed to our kids of the ‘swiper no swiping’ level of dumb – is part of that. But when the priority is ‘me me me, my pleasure, my privilege, my needs first’… it’s hard to teach anything beyond the selfish needs the self-absorbed deem important.
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Indeed. I think we ARE training a rash of sociopaths, and I think that is inevitable when the State has the final word on everything.
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not the fake, shallow crap being fed to our kids of the ‘swiper no swiping’ level of dumb
We’re passively preventing the kids from watching the “Pirate Show” where every ep is about pirates… who whine about other pirates stealing.
Yes, really.
Jake and the wonderland pirates or something. I haven’t watched them all, but all three eps before we pulled the plug had the main theme of “we have something cool, Captain Hook took it, waaa.”
Oh for freak’s sake.. BACK TO FAIRY TAIL! (at least that’s easier to follow. Without subtitles.)
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Yeah, there kinda was a reason why I deemed Cardcaptor Sakura safe for my daughter to watch – and certainly a better influence than most of the kids shows seen nowadays.
I’d have them watch Phineas and Ferb now but we don’t have cable and that is a series that doesn’t seem to have any DVD of the TV series sets. (Some movies though, which we DID get them and the kids enjoy.)
And yeah it’s Jake and the Wonderland Pirates. It operates on a similar sort of schtick as Dora the Explorer and I was really grateful that my boy found it boring. He’s into Ninjago, which I find better as a storyline and more interesting despite some of the silly premises.
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Yes. Same thing. Explains why that was a ‘valid’ defense in this case, too. Serial killers usually start out this way, no?
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In various training moments at one time or another I’ve been mildly surprised at how few people view their environments as handy armories of the unexpected.
My office fave for demo: The Swingline stapler (the 747 series), found in just about every business office I’ve ever been in. Held by the base, with the back swinging loose… Flail for the office-bound.
As a long time voracious reader I always had a book (until the kindle) everywhere I went. Pages against the palm, spine out, handy striking tool.
One or both of these items smacked into something with force usually has people’s eyes popping. Nobody thinks about the violence anymore. *sigh*
To Cedar’s point, aside from walking the world in the fuzzy oblivion of blissful unawareness, way too many folks wouldn’t have a plan if they found themselves thrown out of white with the colors blurring as things got unpleasant. ‘Least no plan beyond “run, run away!”
Speaking of running away, I really dislike the self-defense training that tells women to fight free — and run. Why would you turn your back on a (likely) faster foe and do the prey dance?
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Some of us are simply not physically able to fight for one reason or another. Lack of upper body strength being a big factor.
Using one of a few simple tactics to disable your opponent will increase your odds of escape.
Mace, Keys, heavy bag/purse across the face could blind them. Run Like Hell. They will be p*ssed.
Stomp on the arch of their foot (really good if you’re wearing heels) then kick the sod in the knee, and then Run. Oh, if you are wearing heels – lose them. No one runs very fact in heels. One reason I always wear flats.
Do Not try to stand and fight unless you are trained. Trying to fight if you all you know about fighting is from watching TV/Movies will get you hurt at best, dead at worst. Fighting is not just knowing what to do in you head. It is also muscle memory. ;-)
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I don’t advocate going toe to toe even if you are trained. People get hurt in fights. I do advocate fighting like a banshee with everything you can lay your hands on, and doing everything you can to be sure the attacker is disabled before making an organized retreat. Preferably seeking to arm yourself as you move away.
The kind of stuff I’m talking about is the “formulaic pattern of moves and run” program.
There are couple of broad problems with those (overconfidence is one I’ll leave for another time). One, there’s no reason to assume that disabling attack Q worked. It does no good to run after the instep stomp if your foot slid off the top of heavy leather boots and your attacker is hurt but not crippled. Two, it’s very difficult to avoid panic when you flee.
Fight to disable and execute an armed retreat. I have no problem with the concept, and tons of problems with the execution frequently seen.
If you must fight to defend, be the badger.
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Agreed.
Which is one reason I advocate kicking the knee. (not the groin, never the groin) According to a (probably long dead now) survival combat instructor in AF OCS circa 1961, even a partially planted kick to the knee will slow your opponent. That information was passed to me fifteen years later, when I got old enough to start venturing out “unsupervised”.
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Note: I’m typing on my phone, so can’t expand as much as I’d like (may be a good thing).
Knees are good. The only problem I have with the knee attack (and most others, really) is people don’t train and mentally prepare to really do it. Don’t kick, shove your foot through the knee laterally. If they’re not screaming you probably did it wrong. A frontal knee attack depends on where the opponent’s weight is placed. And it’s harder to execute effectively.
People who don’t fight tend to overestimate the efficacy of various moves or attacks. I’ve been known to tell people to watch MMA. Not for moves or attacks (that takes training) but for seeing how much physical abuse somebody can soak up and keep coming.
Watch the women, too.
Then plan (wargame and ponder) accordingly.
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We may disagree on the specifics of tactics, but I think we can all agree that the best defense is to Not Be there in the first place. ;-)
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To paraphase:
“Fight: n. A situation where presence of mind is good, and absence of body even better.”
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Or to quote the great Miyagi: Best block, no be there. ;)
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Heh. You replied while I was typing too much.
I don’t think we necessarily disagree. I’m just tossing out ideas for broader consideration.
And I’m all for being someplace else when the fight’s going on.
:D
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Few last thoughts, now that I’m on a real keyboard:
First, I’m not disagreeing with you, Wyldkat, just expanding.
In my theoretically humble opinion, if you’re not mentally preparing to follow through with an attack you’re not mentally prepared. If you’re not willing to gouge an eye, pull an ear off somebody’s head, yank the lips off the face, break a pinkie finger and take it home with you, use the fingernails G*d and/or the salon gave you to rip open a scrotum and show your attacker his testicles… If you have not settled your mind around, and decided you’re willing to do permanent and hideous damage to defend yourself, you’re doing yourself a disservice.
From this, my biggest problem with much of the hand’s on self-defense training being bandied about is it disadvantages the defender. Once you’re committed to the defense you should have the mindset of making a conscious decision to stop not a conscious decision to continue. In other words, if the heel stomp/knee swipe/pinky break works — follow through. Damage the next available target. Try to tear the pinkie off, while aiming to reverse the elbow or punch the throat, or… Make the conscious decision to break off your attack when you think you’ve gained enough advantage to retreat successfully. Never flee.
This is the core of the berserker, you know. Just aim for doing it consciously.
Corollary to those ideas: If you have not made yourself comfortable with the very real possibility you might lose, and you might die, you’re lying to yourself. You’re fighting to win and to live, definitely. But part of that is accepting you might lose. Know this before hand, reconcile yourself to it. And then prepare to leave a bloody and beaten corpse, covered in your attackers DNA, with their skin under your fingernails and in your teeth, with bloody hanks of their hair lying about, and gobbets of their flesh spit on the ground. Let the cops follow your attacker’s blood trail and his screams to find him blinded, coughing blood, missing a nose, with broken fingers and a floppy knee. Leave everybody wondering where his ear is. Let your last gift to him be prosthetic testicles. Do not go gently.
Be the badger.
If you embrace those concepts, then I’m all for doing the minimum damage that needs to be done so you can get out and get help.
And now, after wall ‘o’ text, I’ll step away.
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That sounds like an incredibly cruel and harsh attitude to go through life with.
Good!
That is exactly the level of empathy and compassion your average free range criminal has for you his victim. You are prey, meat, the means to feed his lust, pay for his next fix, satisfy his desire to dominate someone less powerful. By attacking without warning he has abrogated any claim for fair and decent treatment. It is your right and your obligation to cause him every bit as much harm as he intended for you, not only for your own protection, but for that of his potential future victims, many of whom might be less capable of personal defense than you are.
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Yep. I try to spread the joy (incredibly cruel) and light (harsh) as far as possible. I think it makes for a better world. :)
I absolutely agree with your closing paragraph.
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Make them kill you in public, rather than let them take you somewhere private.
It is a duty, and not just for that particular criminal’s potential future victims.
Attackers dealt with properly do have some deterrent value against other attackers.
Furthermore, it sets a good example for other people who may be attacked.
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All of this.
Why the hell am I, the attacked, supposed to try FIGURE OUT THE MOTIVES OF MY ATTACKER AND BE EMPHATIC?! To the one fighting to survive, to protect, my understanding is not obligated to go beyond ‘that person wants to hurt me and mine; I will stop that person with any means possible, no matter what I have to do. Why am I supposed to assume that person will stop trying to hurt me at some point? Why am I supposed to assume ‘that person doesn’t want to kill me’ and NOT act as if I am mortal danger?
More importantly, why the nine hells am I supposed to try control myself and ‘use reasonable force’ to stop that attacker? WHY the everliving bloody @#!@& am I supposed to be the ‘one in control’ enough to ‘assess’ what is ‘reasonable force’? Why is the criminal’s right to live greater than mine?!
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Exactly!!!!! Thank you.
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Shadowdancer,
The short answer is to stay out of prison. Because ultimately SD, if we get to a point of a physical altercation, is not about what we believe, but convincing other that what we did was justified.
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Yeah, it sucks. Still, it makes me snarl whenever I think I’d have to justify defending myself, my children, my household.
(unrelated, why is it 11 pm already? Where did the last three hours go?! The movie I was watching wasn’t THAT long.)
*bows* Sorry all; 6:30 am wakeup time to start the day with ‘time to wake up, kids! Pleasure talking with you!
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Indeed. Time for me to go split wood.
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Shadowdancer,
I complely understand. This something I’m still working on.
This idea that you can win the battle, but still loose the war.
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Had to chuckle. One of Barbara Hambly’s characters put out the eye of her attacker. Would have worked if the attacker hadn’t been possessed by a Rat God. Oh, another character crushed the skull of the attacker with a tire iron but the attacker kept on coming. Oh, fire was later used to destroy the attacker’s body.
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Yeah, that’d definitely be a “more napalm” moment. Right after the “Huh, that usually works.”
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My high school self-defense class definitely had the blood instinct in it. One key move we were taught was “grab and twist.” Or scraping your foot down the shin—the instructor preferred that to the kick to the groin because “they’re expecting that and it’s easy to defend against.” If things got too far, biting off a tongue was also mentioned as an option.
I may have been one of the few students to take that class seriously. Nobody wanted to be my partner after they discovered my habit of stopping my hand less than an inch from somebody’s nose (or, in one incident, actually bumping her glasses.) And it never hurts to have a working knowledge of leverage.
Mind you, I’ve never had to even think about using this knowledge. Something about being tall and walking like I can stomp people into the ground (as well as Resting Bitch Face) means I’ve actually scared people. Just as well—I don’t like getting hurt, and you have to go into a fight assuming you’ll be hurt.
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Thumbs up. :)
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I keep hearing that there are two purely American styles of unarmed combat, Rough and Tumble and Jailhouse Rock. You just described Rough and Tumble. It dates back to Colonial times at least, in the form of laws proscribing special punishment for fighters who engaged in “gouging” (another name for it) and gouging was said to have taken place if there was ears missing or badly bitten, lips bitten off, nose bitten off, genitals crushed or, the sure sign, one eye hanging out of its socket. Worth Googling those terms.
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Corollary to those ideas: If you have not made yourself comfortable with the very real possibility you might lose, and you might die, you’re lying to yourself. You’re fighting to win and to live, definitely. But part of that is accepting you might lose. Know this before hand, reconcile yourself to it. And then prepare to leave a bloody and beaten corpse, covered in your attackers DNA, with their skin under your fingernails and in your teeth, with bloody hanks of their hair lying about, and gobbets of their flesh spit on the ground. Let the cops follow your attacker’s blood trail and his screams to find him blinded, coughing blood, missing a nose, with broken fingers and a floppy knee. Leave everybody wondering where his ear is. Let your last gift to him be prosthetic testicles. Do not go gently.
My father put it simply: if you’re going to die, die fighting. But try to make sure the other guy dies, not you.
*grin* your description’s more entertaining though.
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I like this one.
“Lord, make me fast and accurate. Let my aim be true and my hand faster than those who would seek to destroy me. Grant me victory over my foes and those that wish to do harm to me and mine. Let not my last thought be “If only I had my gun”; and Lord if today is truly the day that You call me home, let me die in a pile of brass”
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Dang! Supposed to be “empty brass”
What happened to the edit feature?
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Do not try to stand and fight even if you are trained, unless you think it more dangerous to flee, or can’t. Flukes happen.
Remember why Rod’s sister, in Tunnel in the Sky, told him not to take a gun: the overconfidence it inspired was not worth the superior protection.
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I actually agree. I just have a problem with people who think because they have seen Jackie Chan or Jet Li, or those MMA bouts, that they know how to fight. Or worse, take a few “self defense” classes at the Y and think they are safe. -sigh- Sorry Charlie. Fighting is a skill. One that takes years to hone and one that you pray you never have to use.
Also, some of the best marital artist (I’m thinking of Chuck Norris) will tell you that it is always preferable to avoid the fight when possible.
Huh, I’d forgotten the line, but I know the sentiment.
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But see Red Planet for arming the young. It seems likely at least to me that with full consideration of the possibility of changed circumstances a gun would have been well worth having – a shark rifle even on the equivalent of a 3 hour cruise – and even for the school to have a few instructors or more likely emergency caches someplace in the background even half a continent away – the greater issue is letting a gun take you where you wouldn’t go without a gun – and that’s always a bad idea even it’s an M60 just in case a water buffalo takes offense but sometimes you gotta go and then the gun is indeed comforting (Thunder Ranch and many others)
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Some of us are simply not physically able to fight for one reason or another.
Amen.
Physical fight, I’m screwed. I’ve got shock, and then… uh, no. “Get Help” is it.
Well, “Fight Dirty As Hell” and get help.
Gouging eyes is the LEAST of the fair game.
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“Well, “Fight Dirty As Hell” ”
That’s the idea. Ever corner a weasel? They’re about the size of a squirrel but they will tear you up.
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Like a Cornered Cat.
http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/458525816
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:o) Yup!
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Corneredcat is also a great site addressing the topic of women and arms
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Pft. Corner a squirrel and they will tear you up.
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From a Crime Prevention pov: getting into your car.
Try to park near a light, even if it means you have to walk a bit farther. If possible, use the buddy system. Criminals will go after lone targets before they will risk multiples.
Don’t stand at the door fumbling in your pocket or bag for your keys, have them in your hand. Yes, they can be used as a weapon.
Have one of those remotes that will unlock your car? Don’t use it until you are close to your car. Keep in mind that there are a finite number of frequencies and/or codes, someone else could have a remote that will open your car. Crooks know this.
Scan the area. Is anyone near by? What are they doing?
A quick check in the back seat isn’t a bad idea.
It is best to put purchases in the trunk, not the back seat. That gets them out of sight, important to keep in mind if you have additional stops. Also, this keeps them from becoming projectiles if you have to panic brake.
Carrying a purse? Keep it on your shoulder until you get into the car if at all possible. We tend to get distracted when we set our bags down, even going to far as to put our heads inside the car while we set everything down.
Lock the doors as soon as you get the door closed. Some cars will lock the doors as soon as you put the car into gear, but you’re still vulnerable while you start the engine.
There are others steps you can take, but those are the ones I could recall off the top of my head.
On a different note. Something I was taught a long time ago. When someone tries to start something:
Out talk them.
If you can’t out talk them, walk away.
If you can’t walk/run away, kick them in the knee then out run them.
Find the nearest person of authority, eg the police. (Obviously this was before the advent of cell phones, but it still holds. Today it would probably be to get somewhere safe and call 9-1-1.)
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My brothers and I used to play cowboys and Indians, and soldiers, all the time when we were young. We had to (for the most part) improvise our weapons, and had a lot of fun carving knives and swords out of chunks of wood. How many kids growing up now get to participate in that kind of play?
My first line of defense at home is my dogs. I have four of them, and while I realize that they could get shot, NOBODY is going to get close to this house without them letting me know about it! The worst I’ve had to deal with in the last few years is panhandlers, either at rest areas on the interstate, or in a park in town. I found out the park with the panhandlers is out of the city limits proper, so we don’t use that park anymore. The in-city-limits park doesn’t allow panhandlers, which makes it a little safer. People out here where we live (very rural, an hour from town) have at times had trouble with robberies — I’m hoping the dogs, two of whom are quite large and look fierce — will deter most of that kind of trouble. If not, well, I have my CCW.
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It’s nice to know I’m not the only person that does this. I think my most creative one was knowing which bedpost I could just yank out to use as a blunt instrument as a child. (I was pretty paranoid for years about someone coming in through my window—this was pre-Polly Klass—and it took me a long time to figure out that when I heard footsteps in the loose bamboo leaves outside my window, it was always a cat. Not enough room for a person.)
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Hey! Cats can be dangerous! [Wink]
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Heh. The biggest threat ours present is being a trip hazard. ;-)
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Oh, and the other thing I watch for, though hopefully it will never happen, is a potential shooter coming into our church services. I normally sit near the primary entry — if anyone comes in that door shooting, they’d better shoot me first, because I’ll be launching myself at them. We also have several people at church who I know are carrying at all times. (I need to get a smaller pistol — the one I have is really too big to carry concealed.)
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“(I need to get a smaller pistol — the one I have is really too big to carry concealed.)” Do tell! I carry a 4″ Redhawk in 45 colt, open or concealed. My little gun is a colt commander 45. The redhawk can be a challenge to conceal on a hot day.
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Uh, it takes a large person to consider a Colt Commander a “little” gun …
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I guess. I’m 6′ 170#. Not so big.
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*growl* *mutter* YES six foot is big you @Q$#@ overgrown….
(Dear husband is the same height and delusion)
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*grumbles right along with you* Hubby’s 5’9 so he says and says he’s not tall. I’m 4’8″. Whaddaya mean you’re not tall?! And since when is six feet tall ‘not tall’?!
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*points toward Australia* Hey! There’s actually a Hun shorter than I am! Cool! *runs*
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Yeah, well, I’m in Australia now… the tendency of things to be small, ridiculously lethal, and with rather unpredictable triggers here (‘don’t touch that. don’t bother that. Don’t go near that. It’ll kill you!*) means I fit riiiight in. *grin* Oh, and the whole dwarf list makes it even more apropos.
Of course, there are some serious shortcomings, like being unable to reach the top shelf in the grocery, having problems seeing over the dashboard of a standard size car / reach pedals at the same time, and feet not reaching the ground when one sits in a chair/couch/stool properly…
But hey, it’s all camouflage, right? ^_^v
XD When someone called me ‘kyoootest evul’ here my hubby thought it appropriate.
* I actually think a number of the things here that can kill or cause serious amounts of pain have perfectly sensible triggers. Except the goddamn jellyfish. Irukanji. Lion’s Mane Jellyfish. The thing that looks like a floating plastic bag. Tentacles that break off, and even if they break off, still deliver the pain. FUCK Irukanji – swearing entirely warranted – they’re so tiny they can’t be seen, they’re nearly transparent to boot, so ridiculously fragile that bumping up against glass kills them… but their neurotoxin pretty much just takes your pain receptors, twists them up to ‘enjoy your trip to hell’ and snaps off the dial. Oh, and how long you react to it varies.
They terrify me.
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You think you got problems being short? At 6′ 3″, I’m the first one to get wet when it starts raining. Hmph.
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So what’s the weather like up there? *grins up at you*
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A friend of mine is about 7′ tall and has… wait for it… Acrophobia.
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Totally digressing from the humor, but… I can see that.
If you’re use to X height and being in control, lack of control is horrifying.
I had to deal with that for GETTING STUFF OUT OF CUPBOARDS.
If you don’t have to deal with that, the issue of over-reaction to a problem is bigger.
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…being unable to reach the top shelf in the grocery…
Yeah, then the ones like you wait until they see someone like me walking by and say, “Would you reach that thing up there for me?” and look helpless, which automatically makes us go, “Sure. Here you go.”
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I have a kitchen stool on wheels to reach the upper cabinets. The guys laugh at me.
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I once designed a stepstool designed to be stored under the base of the cabinet in the kitchen (It would fold flat to be rolled back into its niche when not in use), but I didn’t figure anyone would want to do the installation for it…
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Fits behind the kickplate, under the cabinet proper? Draw up the plans, man. It would sell.
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Lord, yes.
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I’m sorry, ladies, but 6′ is not “tall” for a man. It IS slightly more than average, but walking down the street, I’m not taller than much more than half the guys walking past. For those of you who are vertically challenged, just because a guy towers over you doesn’t necessarily mean he’s “tall”.
(Stands and manfully takes the abuse to be heaped on him in 3….2…1…) ;-)
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After being called “Shorty” growing up, I find being “average height” at 5′ 9″ just fine. [Smile]
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come from my family and 5’7″ is “Tall” (or as I say: I come from a Long Line of Short People)
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Actually, when it comes to family reunions, I have to stand in the back, and I’m generally the tallest one in the shot, because my family tends to be short, but around other people, I’m not that tall.
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used to be the same here, but a few of my younger cousins are a bit taller, though still not truly “tall”
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Not my family. My kids are tiny compared to their cousins.
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*makes a face and womanfully flounces off*
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Shadowdancer, TxRed, Foxfier,
Guy tend to not realy understand a womans SD needs or point of view.
I wonder how many guys would like to tailor their SD training to deal with fighting Silverback Gorilla; which is a comparible weight and power distrubition between your average wonan to guy ratio.
Guys need think about this (paraphrasing):
“What is your neightmare opponent, because that is where most women start their day.”
http://chirontraining.blogspot.com/2011/06/nightmare.html
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My brain came up with the immediate responses of “lots of them,” “the one I don’t see” and “yes.”
I really hate fights!
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Good point. Mine is tailored to black bear and moose. That ought to cover anything on this continent.
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*stares at the giant mekong carp that Wayne’s been shoved into* O_O that wasn’t me.
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Protestations of innocence are sure signs of guilt. Every prosecutor knows this.
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Yeah, but in this case, my size definitely proves my innocence. I couldn’t hope to lift one of those and I don’t have access to heavy machinery.
*surreptitiously glances to make sure the very bored RAEME have put the locks back where they belong*
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I’ve worked with Filipina’s, I know something of persuasion.
I’ve also worked with army engineers, so I know something of the persuadable.
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Psst! Eamon – CAREFUL! If she can do that, you don’t want to make her mad! Not only am I more than a foot taller than her, I weigh at least 4 times as much! Back away slowly…
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I’ve been spoofing my IFF and flying evasive patterns below the radar.
I think she lost track of me.
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Actually I got distracted by work – I’ve a couple of work commissions to punt out before I get down to the business of painting our lovely hostess’ requests.
*walks away as a Chinook on exercise flight patterns loses a crate of koi*
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Fortunately, I’m familiar with the Chinook (I hear them in my sleep. No, wait, those’re Black Hawks. The Chinooks are whumpier.), so merry chase and a new koi pond for my neighbors!
In the absence of Wayne’s testimony (apparently he’s busy whipping up a few gallons of spicy citrus glaze for some very large fish fillets), it appears the prosecution cannot move forward.
But there’s a file on fish related incidents. A thick file. And now there’s another name in this file…
Seriously. It’s a very thick file. Can somebody give me a hand? Or a forklift?
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Well — if you can. If it’s too much let me know!
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I’ve already started the sketch for the sample for you. Today is filled with doctor appointments though, so I might not get much drawing in.
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From the stories I’ve heard, it doesn’t take ‘persuasion’ to get a bored RAEME to do something they may find amusing and challenging – just put the idea there. The last inter-unit prank war resulted in the huge tyres of one of the big vehicle-moving trucks being hung off the centre of the cliff that’s behind the base proper. NOBODY knows how the RAEMEs 1) got the tyres off without anyone noticing 2) up that mountain without nobody noticing and 3) how they ended up suspended halfway down a sheer cliff.
Oh, and if the lovely Kate is around, remember that poor Pom I mentioned the other time? That someone left a wee huntsman on the desk, under a styrofoam cup?
Yeah, someone decided to put upended styrofoam cups all over the guy’s desk, and left a note along the line of ‘guess which one holds a surprise!’
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Precisely. Imagine what happens when they’re persuaded.
As a related aside, have you read Ringo’s Legacy of the Aldenata series? The first trilogy? Some fantastic motivated engineer stories in there.
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*mournfully* No, alas I have not – yet. What’s the title of the first book?
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Oh, goodie! Somebody new to the series! I said trilogy, it’s actually 4 books in the first series. Here they are in order:
Hymn Before Battle, Gust Front, When the Devil Dances, Hell’s Faire
Beyond those four there are — many. Mil SF. Grand fun.
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Fear the Castle
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Yeah, I wrote that comment before I saw that you had help.
Cheater. :-)
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Well, I did say I couldn’t hope to lift one of those and I don’t have access to heavy machinery.
*angelic smile*
(seriously you guys are fun)
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Aren’t all of Ringo’s “trilogies” four books long?
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Dear lady, could you perhaps do illustrations in this style? http://www.cadytech.com/dumas/images/mid/mid_vaa_you_need_not_take_the_trouble.jpg With musketeers?
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I could try. Fire me off an email with what you’re looking for.
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Frank Adams. Musketeer illustrations.
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:o) Lot’s of bigger guys around. Almost all the teenagers seem bigger than me these days.
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Great handle, BTW.
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Yes. Same thing here.
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Hidden in plain sight works as well for things around the office as improvised. When Pete Gerber still ran the company and Al Mar was designing the knives Gerber made some of their more or less fighting knives with fancy jade handles and such including mirror polished 440C blades – sheathed jointly with a pair of round point scissors and a ruler it’s obviously a desk set and welcome in a weapons unfriendly setting. Not advising it but in a briefcase carried by a respectable person such things have been carried into court houses, state and federal office buildings. Starting before the AOW days my wife carried a High Standard derringer in a wallet holster for a surprise – but notice a few bills wrapped around a match book cover to be thrown one direction while moving another may or maybe not be a more useful tool.
I’ve got a Mini Maglite accessible to each hand as a Kubotan – always nice to have a less lethal option available. Surefire for light.
My best guess is that if their only tool is a knife most people won’t cut throats as the first move any more than most people strike me as prepared to gouge eyes ( see the discussion chez ESR)
For the situation in Colorado I trust everybody with an interest is keeping track of Michael (Wolf) Bane at michaelbane.blogspot especially the post for 25 July. Mr. Bane has mentioned our hostess favorably from time to time though maybe not on his TV show(s)
For magazines it’s nice to have a cover garment with a dump pouch analog – it’s not generally thought wise to take a full magazine out and put the used magazine back into the same magazine holder.
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Clark,
Do not confuse what somethings normal utility with wether or not it is considered a deadly weapon.
Those mag lights used in that way are considered (in most states) as deadly weapons and fall under the same use of force law as a gun, knife or other blunt object.
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That’s why I said less lethal. Always nice to be equipped for every level of an escalation of force regardless of what is used. Then too like carrying the same hollow point ammunition as issued locally any number of LEO or expert witnesses will have a Kubotan on their key chain or otherwise handy.
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Suddenly I know why my baby forks were taken from me at the court house.
(I wish to the dear Lord I was joking. They took the baby sporks.)
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“Not advising it but in a briefcase carried by a respectable person such things have been carried into court houses, state and federal office buildings. ”
Also not advising it, but I have walked into court houses with a 40 on my hip and never been stopped. I used to never think much of it, I wasn’t going into court after all; I was going in there to research properties. Until one day when we got back in the truck it was poking me when I sat down and the guy working with me saw me adjusting it and said, “you were packing that in the courthouse!?”
Yeah, apparently the metal detectors by the front door are just there for show.
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It depends on the location; in Spokane and Tacoma, my baby’s spork was confiscated.
Also, we gave the little girl at the door (…because that’s what you hire when you’re trying to stop violent invaders, unarmed chias who weigh less than a a couple of bags of potatoes) a heart attack because we had something like ten blades between my husband and myself. (most of them because we’re trying not to scare folks)
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As the knees are getting a bit older I started walking with the Cold Steel Blackthorn Walking Stick. I even flew with it on the 10th Anniv of 9/11 out of Pittsburgh. You’d have thought they would be especially paranoid on that day but I breezed onto the plane no problem. They allow canes onto the plane so didn’t even look twice. I did get a couple of knowing nods and grins as I went through the plane cabin with it. :)
My family is used to the fact that I don’t like to sit with my back to a door.
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Ooh, I looked those up. Very nice.
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This reminds me of when my coworkers and I made a plan for if our factory was hit by the zombie apocalypse–what we could weaponize and so forth :)
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Fun AND educational!
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Those knives in the kitchen–where’s the closest outside entry to the kitchen, and how secure is it? Solid door, or hollow-core? Windows in it? How strong is the door jamb? How deeply are the hinges screwed in? Are there accessible windows? Because anyone coming in that way may well pick up those knives…
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If they’re willing to come through a window or door, they’re willing to carry something better than our knife set– of Random Knife Set, rather.
While I utterly hate the sliding door fad, the Random Invader doesn’t know what’s in the kitchen, how the door is made, etc.
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I went ahead and posted this on the LASFS page, among other reasons because we’re wrestling with a harassment policy. Part of the problem we’re having is we get women coming in who want to be able to spend all their time in “condition white” and never have to deal with anything unpleasant. So I quoted the passage,
One of the responses was,
Well, fine.
So I told him he has a moral obligation to log on and disabuse you of your silly notions in the comments himself, assuming he’s being serious.
But after more than a generation of “I Am Woman, Hear Me Roar”, I was hoping the roar would be something other than “Oh, Protect Me From All Those Scary Men!”
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Well, that might be entertaining if they come to comment. But as a woman, I am well aware that a man can overpower me. Which is why there are force multipliers. The most obvious is a gun, perhaps, the simplest is to have friends to back you up. Oh… and I was never socialized to placate and defer to men. To be nice, yes, and sweet-mannered. But that doesn’t mean I’m bending like a reed if you push me too far.
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Yes, because a 120 pound teenage girl who’s been socialized to placate and defer to men can totally take out a 200 pound, socialized to aggression muscle man who’s got her backed into a corner, any time, any where.
It’s a silly response. Primarily because his solution to the stated problem is — what? A harassment policy?*
More importantly, this sort of idiotic rejoinder marginalizes a women’s efforts in her own defense. It’s a fun line to dance around, because I stress to people how much damage a body can take and keep functioning. And if you’re tangling with a professional fighter of one ilk or another, pray for assistance and luck. But the other side of the line is, most attackers aren’t really prepared for shocking pain. They go for weak prey, and if weak prey turns out to be dangerous…
Women aren’t necessarily in a position to “win” a fight, but they’re frequently in a good position to stop a fight. And that’s often good enough. The sort of rejoinder you got from this fellow is useless and damaging. And that’s the best I’ll say about him.
*I don’t have objections to clearly defined policies. But let’s not pretend policies are effective against our 200 pound socialized to aggression male.
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This is why I wrote a 1000+ word blog post for tomorrow about policies, problems, and Cons. Avoid the fight, escape the fight, fight the fight, in that order preferable, which means being ready, willing, and able to go straight to Con Security (or the police, or a larger, meaner friend) and saying, “that person won’t leave me alone. I’ve told him I’m not interested and tried to get away and he’s still following me.”
And d-mn, but I wish Melody Byrne still had her post up about why natural-followers and submissive types (“who has been socialized to placate”) need to be able to defend themselves and to back up their leader/protector.
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For your blog, yes? I look forward to reading it!
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Yes, at my place.
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One of my fears about the committee to draft a policy was that it would try to create a policy that would protect even those who are “that fragile”. Fortunately common sense seems to have prevailed. Really, all we can do is make it clear that LASFS officers are there to respond to complaints. We also make it clear that an investigation may show there’s nothing going on that qualifies as “harassment”, so we won’t promise any particular result.
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Post the link Red, if you please.
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I find it ironically hilarious that the type of female who would post this type of argument is also the type to feel “threatened” simply knowing Larry Correia is attending the same con as she is.
Somewhere along the path to Progdom there must be an operation disabling that part of the human psyche that distinguishes between coyotes and sheepdogs.
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“coyotes and sheepdogs.”
Much better. :o)
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A harassment policy is not going to stop a jerk in the act, but (if properly implemented) it should be effective in removing repeat offenders from the area.
And the fundamental point is not to attempt to define “harassment” (and then put up with rules lawyers) but to track it. The rule can be as simple as Jim Baen’s “Don’t be a butthead”—as long as reports are collected so that patterns of repeated or aggravated buttheadedness can be identified.
A culture of respect & responsibility is necessary, where a butthead can be warned and a repeated butthead made unwelcome, but in a larger convention with divers fandoms it’s hard to know that (say) this is the fourth time today this fellow’s come this close to directly-actionable behavior and been warned off.
(I suspect that the source of the recent failures of harassment policies that the SJW-sphere is discussing comes from an emphasis of The Rules over responsibility & judgement.)
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Yes, I’ve no objection to this. My only quibble in the “clearly defined” arena is dealing with the escalating series of offenses that cannot be objectively defined. Microagressions and the like.
But, yeah, on-board with policies allowing the con to police the butt-head element.
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Thirded. “Don’t be a butt-head.” Works. “If the other person says no, drop it and leave them alone,” also works. “Don’t be ‘that guy/gal’ and ‘use your words’.”
And I’ll add the link to the end of today’s discussion tomorrow AM.
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And I’ll add the link to the end of today’s discussion tomorrow AM.
‘K, thanks!
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Looking forward to it.
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Yes. A harassment policy. Or maybe, a Harassment Policy.
We (LASFS) had some nastiness three months ago when a young lady came forward and lodged an official complaint against one of our members. His crime: being “creepy”.
Motions were made to expel the man from the Society, and it came to a vote late in April. After a lengthy meeting where all manner of “evidence” including hearsay was brought up, and people aired their hurt feelings, the vote was held. It takes a 4/5 vote to expel a member, but the “Ayes” weren’t even in the majority. (I think that 4/5 vote provision was drafted during or shortly after some of the classic feuds among the members of LASFS.)
There were numerous problems with the way this whole thing was handled, and nobody liked it in the least.
So the club formed a committee to draft a coherent policy that we can
A) post on the wall and on websites,
B) actually implement, without trying to be law enforcement personnel.
One of our Board members is retired from the LA Police Dept, and offered a proposed draft, which wound up being adopted after some minor edits even though a man wrote it. (Oops! Were those last six words in my out-loud voice?)
Fortunately, we have sensible people on the committee so it won’t be a matter of citing “harassment culture” as an excuse to expel any male member a woman takes a dislike to.
Be that as it may, I am one of those voices calling for women to be the strong and resourceful creatures the feminist movement describes. I don’t want the LASFS to feel obliged to assign every female member a keeper to make sure she doesn’t wind up in an episode of The Perils of Pauline.
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When I was around LASFS, being ‘creepy’ was among the requirements for membership.
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The number of invalid assumptions in that argument indicate a person incapable of debating in good faith … and I lack time for a proper fisking.
So, short version:
Assumption: “socialized to placate and defer to men” — in what world is this?
Assumption: “can totally take out” — unnecessary in most con environments; she only needs to deter him until a 250-lb muscle* man socialized to protection can intervene. It won’t need more than 20 seconds for such intervention to occur in any Barfly suite, and that’s assuming defender takes time to put his drink down carefully.
*Or any 150-lb man** either armed or knowledgeable in techniques of unarmed mayhem.
**For that matter, there are at least thirty female barflies capable of opening the proverbial can of whup-*** on said malefactor.
Assumption: “socialized to aggression muscle man” — most American men are not socialized to aggression except in defense of others. See prior statements about Barflies.
Assumption: “who’s got her backed into a corner” — corners are not that difficult to slide out of, especially in a room full of people inclined to render assistance. Further, the whole effing POINT of situational awareness is to not get backed into that corner in the first place.
That commenter is clearly sexist, denying women moral authority and viewing men as predators. Couple that with thinking that a written policy declaring “This Con Sanitized For Your Protection”*** is meaningful and you have a moral idiot.
***You kids may not get that reference. Ask somebody over Sixty to explain it.
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I can just hear the Barfly room conversation. “Is this guy bothering you?”
Her: “Yes, he is. I’ve asked him to leave me alone twice and he still followed me here.”
*rude dude leers in her general direction*
Eight people of various sexes, genders, and species: “Hold my drink, please. Yo, I got it!”
Ten more: “No, it’s my turn!”
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And this is a person who teaches logic and philosophy in college. That’s why I gave him the benefit of the doubt and assumed he was trolling.
When I told him he had a moral duty to show up and offer his correctives in the comments, I bit my tongue and refrained from adding, “I’m sure she’ll submit to your advice just like all the submissive and deferential women in your life.”
(And of course the point is, I doubt there are any in his life.)
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“Yes, because a 120 pound teenage girl who’s been socialized to placate and defer to men can totally take out a 200 pound, socialized to aggression muscle man who’s got her backed into a corner, any time, any where.”
Well isn’t that just about the most sexist and demeaning statement of the day. In what alternate reality is any teenage girl socialized to placate and defer? Oh, perhaps under Sharia in an Islamic state, but here in the West, oh hell no. The scenario that comes to mind is Susie wallflower versus Joe football jock, which is valid if the two are both drunk enough, and at a frat party or some such. But isn’t the theme of this discussion that Susie should not allow herself to be put into that situation? And if she finds herself trapped to vocally announce that she is not a willing victim. Such things do happen, but the point is they are the result of very poor judgement and bad choices, and need not result in serious harm if caught and dealt with anywhere along the path to hell they lead to.
I am not trying to say any female deserves to be attacked, far from it. But we teach our children not to play in a busy street, or to build fires in the attic, or poke at vicious dogs. Seems to me like the current attitude is: I can do any dangerous thing I choose, take the most extreme risks, provoke disaster, and if I come to harm it’s society’s fault, not my own.
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A male friend of mine and I have this discussion frequently, usually after the latest Sl*twalk, or when a SJW gets her five minutes of fame (or a politician sticks hoof into mouth). “Yes, dearie, in a perfect, ideal world, you could walk naked through the south side of Chicago tossing $20 bills out of a bushel basket and no one would do more than shake their heads at your fiduciary foolishness. Or wear a dress you have to be sewn into to a bar in Collegeville after a winning home game and no one will bother you. But this ain’t that world. If you dress like members of the World’s Oldest Profession, don’t be surprised when guys make passes. And if you go where trouble lives, don’t be surprised when you meet trouble.”
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“a 120 pound teenage girl who’s been socialized to placate and defer to men”
Well, perhaps there are some. But that’s why people who have reached their majority can be declared legally incompetent and have guardians. Really, if she’s that fragile, a policy ain’t going to help her.
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Yeah, you know what? No. Maybe within certain fragments of society there might be a girl socially conditioned to give way to a male. But girls have been more so conditioned to disregard male (authority/requests/assistance/personhood/etc) the last few decades. I more see girls being tsked for going along than not. Never mind if the girl respects her father’s rules, even if she doesn’t agree with them, she’s living rent-free under his roof. Never mind if a girl doesn’t mind going to the movie her boyfriend wants to watch and she doesn’t, she knows he’ll repay the favor. She gave a man his way and that is totally 1950, she might as well put on high heels and a frilly apron (because those things are BAD).
A guy warning a girl, “Hey, don’t go that way, there are some drunk people harrassing people.” Is more likely to be met with, “Fuck you, you, you don’t own me. I’ll do what I want.” And often followed by, “I felt threatened by the guy who talked to me. What a creep.”
I’ve been to cons and been treated like a poster. I’ve even been in situations where I was uncomfortable, but didn’t speak up. But I never let myself go into a situation where I could have been trapped. And the easiest way to deal with most situations that edged towards awkward/unnerving was to look the guy in the eye and stare them down. This was at cons, anyway. Many of the undersocialized are alarmed by that.
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oh, yeah — when I was first married, my SIL kept warning me I was being a Stepford wife because, you know, while working from home I cooked meals and when we got Dan clothes for work, I didn’t get them for me too (no need. First, mom gave me clothes EVERY year. Second, I didn’t go out of the house to work.) Well… she’s on her fifth marriage…
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Well Sarah, obviously only a Stepford wife would be married so long to the same man. [Very Big Grin]
Oh Sarah, did you get my email?
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Did. I’m going to put a new one up, then will let you see it, because you might like it better ;)
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After reading Cedar’s article and then the various contributors, I was struck by a couple of things that had not been discussed very much.
One – Everyone should know to always be aware of your surroundings and who is coming into your area. Sit where you can see the entrance and exits of the restaurant. Don’t be talking on your cell phone in line at the ATM or the bank. Pay attention to your surroundings. Stop and survey the parking lot for a second instead of blindly heading straight for your car.
Two – in this modern day of electronic communications – how many of us know who are next door neighbors are, what they do for a living, what type of people do they have visiting them and when? Do they have weapons in their house?
Three – As MacGyver often demonstrated – almost any everyday item can become a useful defensive or even offensive weapon in time of need. Don’t be afraid to think outside the box and use the fire extinguisher or the spray can and a lighter in a way they are not normally intended to be used.
Four – if you are going to CCW then make sure you practice with the weapon and the ammunition that you are going to carry in it every day. It doesn’t do any good to practice with low power, low recoil ammunition and then load up with High speed, big bang ammunition as you will probably never hit what you are hopefully aiming at!! Also, know that you CAN reload without looking at your weapon. There are no timeouts; the bad guy will advance on you while you watching yourself fumble with a reload.
Five – I’ve seen thousands of autopsies and yes, a golden shot with a .22 or a .25 will kill someone but a minimum of a .380 loaded with something like Critical Defense ammunition but preferably a .357 revolver or a 45 ACP will give you a much better fighting chance of coming out of a gun fight standing on your feet.
Six – don’t forget to carry a reload for whatever you carry. You will be amazed how quickly you can empty a 14 round magazine. An empty weapon is just a paperweight.
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Yes!
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Don’t be talking on your cell phone in line at the ATM or the bank
Mild disagreement.
Constant chatter along the lines of “I’m doing this, these folks are here, this is what I see” works really well in ALL high security situations, including the ATM.
Especially if you start describing the creepy guy behind you in line.
What’s he going to do, mug you before you punch in your PIN?
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“What’s he going to do, mug you before you punch in your PIN?”
Beat up your husband? Just kidding, you make a good point.
I couldn’t carry a cell phone. It would just get broken, like glasses.
Damn things.
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At our annual safety and recognition lunch last month, they brought in a speaker to talk about self-defense. One scenario they covered was “someone following you”. If you’re on foot, you can always duck into a store. If the person is still there when you emerge, go back in and call the police.
I suggested snapping a photo on your cell phone and uploading it to Facebook.
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It was in, I believe, the first Monster Hunter book that Larry Corriea mentions Julie has a gun rack mounted above the door with a shotgun in it. Now this might be okay for Owen, but at 6′ 0″ I find it a stretch to reach above the door and then that few inches higher to lift a shotgun out of the rack (and definitely not something you want to do standing in the doorway, you may as well have a flashing neon sign on your belly saying, “hit me”) and imagine it would be even worse for a woman. I do however have a gun rack mounted to the wall at the top of the stairs, which always has a couple of loaded (all guns in my house are loaded, not only is an unloaded gun just a poorly designed club, but it is always empty guns that people get accidentally shot with) guns in it. Usually a Mini-14 and either a 12 gauge or my 45/70.
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I keep all my guns loaded as well, well, except those I keep cased. (Does mental inventory) How on earth did I end up with this many guns?
Just wish I had more time to shoot them.
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You can’t keep them all locked up together in a case. They multiply.
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The rifles are cased. The pistols range freely over the house when they aren’t riding along with me. The Judge enjoys the nightstand… But he wants a tactical flashlight for Christmas.
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A judge?!?! How do you like it?
The concept seemed contradictory to me, but I have never had a chance to shoot one. I do like 45s though.
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Both of my kids have owned Judges. Not a big fan myself. Ungainly beasts, especially the short barreled ones, and the shot patterns very poorly out of the rifled barrel. Still, a very effective snake gun, and loaded with the .45 Colt cartridge quite powerful as well.
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I shoot mostly 45 colt, but I stick to chambers that are the right length for it. We do have some 454s but they are just a smidge long for the 45 colts.
The judge struck me as designed to shoot both (410 & 45c), but neither well.
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Some otherwise wise heads find a Judge suits them very well for walking small dogs in the big woods
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Doesn’t quite have the fit and finish of my S&W, but it’s nearly the same size. Got the 3″ cylinder, which looks like a cartoon gun.
..
Kicks pretty hard, but the ribbed grip takes up a lot of it. .45 Long Colt is a step below .44 Magnum, so you can imagine.
.410 shotgun slugs were a total waste – the 3″ barrel couldn’t stabilize them, but 000 Buck was amazing. The pattern at a target at 25′ was “Hmmm, I don’t think I missed any internal organs on the way through.”
There are a lot of variants. There’s even one that takes .454 Casull.
If you live in snake country, birdshot would be awesome.
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Best report I’ve heard on them. They do look like cartoon guns.
I guess I’ll stick with my Rugers.
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S&W makes a 6-shot version called “The Governor”, which surely will be of higher quality.
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Can you say “bandwagon”? :o) When I was hard up for a double action 45 colt I looked into the judge and governor both but decided to hold out for a redhawk. I’m very pleased with it, though it admittedly took some smithing before it was accurate and reliable.
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If you JUST want .45 LC, yeah, get a gun made for it. If you want to have a hand shotgun that also handles it, one of these two will do that.
There is some comfort in the idea that if you don’t have your glasses and the adrenaline is shaking you that the .36 caliber MIRV you’re sending downrange will surely hit SOMETHING.
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I guess. I am not that impressed with the efficacy of a shotgun except at very close range. They don’t seem to get much lead on target out very far. Works on grouse, sort of. You always have to finish them off.
And that’s a 12 gauge. 410 in a 4 inch barrel? meh
It was some better with 00, but I want the lead to go just where I want it, not somewhere around there. I picked up a sawed off mossberg real cheap that some one home surgeried. Can’t hit much with it at all.
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The efficacy of a shotgun is entirely dependent on load and choke. Without pairing those things appropriately for the target and environment, it’s possible to be bruising your shoulder and wasting your time with ill effect.
With those things? There’s a reason the military still has them in the T.O.E.
Which is why I cringe when people do the “just get a shotgun and don’t worry about it” advice for home defense. Can be very effective, if you’re willing to train with and learn about the tool. If not? Meh.
Oh, and sawed off? Good for close quarters surprise. And requires the tax stamp. Not worth the premium, in my possibly humble opinion.
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I’ll buy that. Maybe someday I’ll have enough interest to learn. The mossberg is 18.5, so not THAT short. I planned on getting a full length barrel for it at some point but it has risen high enough on the list yet.
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Depending on intent, 18.5 is a usable length. With a standard, uncut barrel.
But you’ve got a (big honking) revolver, so the shotgun can wait…
:D
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hasn’t
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“S&W makes a 6-shot version called “The Governor”, which surely will be of higher quality.”
Eh, not so sure about that higher quality. I’ve seen S&W’s of variable quality, to be fair Taurus is well known for their variable quality. But on average I am more satisfied with current production Taurus’s than current production S&W’s. I will say that S&W tends to have a little nicer finish, but I have been happier with the functionality and ‘smoothness’ of the Taurus/Rossi brand.
I believe the Judge or Governor make a nice snake gun, otherwise I would rather have something else for personal defense. A 357 security six is currently occupying my night stand. While I don’t think the Judge is a great defense gun, it is certainly a popular one, so I could be wrong. Personally if I was to design one I would try a smoothbore and see what kind of groups it would shoot with the 45.
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” it is certainly a popular one, so I could be wrong.”
People do love a new gimmick.
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That’s a good point. It’s a handy location for dealing with predators after the livestock, but perhaps not ideal in the event of human predators. hmmmmmm
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While I agree that it’s an awkward spot, in the particular case of the Shackleford house, I’m sure that reaching for the gun would come before opening the door. On the other hand, from the description of the house, I believe the standard door for such a dwelling would put the gun nearly out of reach even for Owen.
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Youngest boy and his family came down south to visit last month. The grand babies are eleven and twelve. On the porch before I let them in we had The Talk: “All the guns in grampa’s house are loaded until you prove otherwise, and every knife, sword, or axe is very very sharp.”
I got a “well, duh, of course we know, you’re our grampa.” Followed with, “what cool new stuff did you get we haven’t seen yet?”
The two items they were most taken with were a couple of machetes from Cold Steel, one patterned after a pirate cutlass, the other a dead ringer for a Roman gladius.
We managed to fit in two range trips during the week they were here. Kids mainly stuck with .22 though both got to shoot a .357 mag and a .45acp just to see what it felt like. The boy, 11, shot my .357 Maximum once, his sister after watching him shoot declined my offer to let her try. The .357 Max is to a .357 mag what the mag is to a .38 special. Only brought it because their mom, my DIL, really wanted to try it.
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What are you shooting the 357 max out of?
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I bought a Dan Wesson off a friend that needed money. I consider it more of a pawn than a permanent sale, just until he can get back on his feet.
Another friend has one of the rare Ruger Blackhawks in .357 Max.
Our biggest concern was ammunition as Remington only produces the brass every 3-5 years. Fortunately they just made a production run and I managed to score a box of 2,000 new factory brass.
My thought is to pick up a Handi Rifle in .357 mag and ream the chamber out to max length. It really is more of a light rifle round after all.
Both the Ruger and Dan Wesson are long since out of production. Seems there were issues with flame cutting of top straps on the revolvers.
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“Seems there were issues with flame cutting of top straps on the revolvers.”
I read that. Something about using bullets that were too light. I had to laugh. WOW
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More like sandblasting the forcing cone – which also occurred with light bullets in the .357 Magnum – which gave rise to the L-frame Smith & Wesson.
The Dan Wesson has user replaceable barrels. Bob Serva who owned Dan Wesson at the time introduced the .360 DW intermediate in length between the .357 Remington Magnum and the .357 Maximum. The top strap cutting typically goes so far and no farther. S&W has used shields to protect the top strap when using large cartridges in lightweight frames.
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I really like Dan Wesson revolvers but haven’t been able to hang onto one. Had someone’s in possession for awhile that was their medium frame but in .22 lr that was a real joy to shoot but had to give it back sadly.
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Here’s the post and link I mentioned yesterday, about harassment, Cons, and a “suggestion” for the perfect policy: http://almatcboykin.wordpress.com/2014/07/29/look-dont-touch-and-dont-look-cosplay-and-objectification-at-cons/
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Mrs. Sanderson,
As much as it may get me castigated, I am compelled to state that you are a very lovely young lady. Dangerous as well it seems.
Jefferson
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It will get you no ill-will from me. Unlike most cosplayers, I’m comfortable with the skin I’m showing, and appreciate being appreciated. And as you note, I’m unlikely to have a problem when I am in the company of those who know me. Outside that company, I’m a bit more sedate in dress. And I have a charming man with a steely glint to his eye.
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Sidebar for David etal. Down here in FL we just had two people killed when a small plane crashed into them on a beach. They didn’t hear the plane because both of them had their ears buds in. Darwin wins again.
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There ought to be a law!
People should not be allowed to sunbath where a plane is gonna crash.
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when I worked at the airport, we were taught that any and all contact you had with a plane was your fault. Even if it fell out of the sky and landed on your head.
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I certainly take personal responsibility for avoiding all contact with airplanes, dhs, tsa, and etc.
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