Kris Rusch said that some editors are now claiming that if you go indie they won’t get good editing and never develop into the writers they could be. This is what is technically known as “poppycock” because most midlisters have got nothing but (hopefully) copyediting for ten years at least, and maybe more. (Except from Baen which has a “light touch” philosophy and which I mention below.)
The thing is, most writers need editors. And most writers need GOOD editors. And there are very few of them, and they’re hard to find, and I don’t know how to solve that.
No, I don’t mean for myself. I have a very good editor who has a real daytime job but who does this for me when I need it, and does it cheaply enough for me to afford because he’s a friend and a nice person. I’m not giving his name (he knows who he is and he does periodically read this blog) because I don’t know if he’s interested in making this a full blown side line, considering he already works too much at his day job. OTOH I must say, at the risk of your finding him through the blush-glow, that this will bring on: he is the best editor I’ve worked with, including professional fiction editors (He worked as an editor for a while, and perhaps still works as one – I haven’t asked exactly what his day job entails, lately :) ). Yeah, okay, he does have a tendency to snark my turn of phrase and wax sarcastic about my characters. But he does it GENTLY. Or at least amusingly.
Part of the reason he works for me is that he’s a man given to wide reading (sorry, my mind is so in Austen I want to say “a mind improved by extensive reading.” Yes, he also speaks several languages and has a certain something in his air… [rolls eyes.] and those of you who have no idea what I’m talking about must watch the Pride & Prejudice mini series from A & E.)
The other part of the reason is that he at least has some idea what I’m trying to do and he doesn’t have a dog in the fight other than to make my book the best it can be and secondarily make it more marketable.
In this he has an advantage over editors for houses that have bought my books.
An advantage, you say? Yes, I say. Because see, houses have styles and guidelines and things they want. So sometimes an editor has to ask me to change the book, not because it’s best for the book, but so it best fits their line. And that’s okay – they’re the ones paying.
The “me” in that paragraph is largely rethorical. This has never happened to ME personally. Mostly because I don’t write for romance lines. There you often have to move sex scenes around, have the characters meet earlier or whatever. It’s just the way it works. To “fit the line” you make concessions.
Now, I’m not saying either that I’m worried indie writers won’t get good editing as opposed to traditionaly published writing. I’ve been worried about NO ONE getting any good editing anywhere for some years now.
Okay, this is where I tell you that I’ve had exactly two books extensively edited: one by an agent, who actually made me rewrite completely so he’d send it out. Another by an editor who made me make a lot of changes which changed (to an extent) the character of the book. I’ll note both the books that were EXTENSIVELY edited were parts of series and the ones that sold worst of that series.
I’ve had other books edited as well just not EXTENSIVELY edited. As far as editing goes, Toni Weisskopf at Baen is my favorite book editor. Oh, she plays with my mind (I THINK not on purpose) by saying “I’m going to call you to discuss some issues. And every time, my heart about stops, because I think it’s going to be “She wakes up naked and strapped to a bed in the hospital, and minutes later she’s leaving and the hospital is on fire. What were you thinking?” It never is. Instead, it’s something sensible and sometimes essential like “You dropped this plot thread halfway through, was that intentional for next book or do you need to tie it up?” or “you never tell you if he survives” or… that sort of thing. But Baen’s editorial philosophy is to keep the book as much the writers’ as possible and “let the writer’s style shine through, so it’s almost like your own hired editor, except of course, they’re paying you and if they DID ask for major changes you’d have to do it.
And as far as short stories go, the best editor I ever had was Denise Little formerly at Tekno, who used to be able to make the story wonderful so subtly that you had to look to see what she changed.
However most of my traditionally published books simply get copyedited which is not the same as edited. And mostly I think “well, maybe they didn’t need anything more.”
But then I read about Campbell and how he helped Heinlein become the author he eventually was. There are no editors working at that level today. These are market forces. I mean, Campbell had three magazines and he had to fill them, and he didn’t have enough writers to fill them. It was worth his time to mold new authors. These days there are too few editors with too little time, and a lot of would-be writers to fill the slots. It’s easier to publish what you get, unless your vision is diametrically opposite the writer’s.
So how will it work for indie? I don’t know. Here is what I hope will happen: I hope that writers, in a free market place, will realize they need good editors, and that those who find a good editor will publicize/thank him/her in the beginning of the books, and that this will create a marketplace where something like this happens “Jane’s book did really well, and I notice she’s improving both her sales and her writing every book. I hear she contracts Joe Blow as her editor. I wonder if he’ll take me on.” Then Joe Blow will get a lot of business and be able to charge good prices and live from this, and maybe EVENTUALLY there’ll be the “blow prize for new authors.” (Stop giggling, you.) And the reader will get better and easier to read and more fun books.
The worst case scenario is that nothing will happen. Authors will publish themselves as is. A few of them will be painfully bad. Most of them will be so so and a few will be exceptional. Some will get rich. A lot will make a living. A few will give up.
In other words, the worst case scenario looks a lot like what we have, except that due to economies of process more writers will be able to make a living, (I think) which right now very few of us can.
Will there be a lot of writers who could be great and never are for lack of good, inspired editing? Sure there will. But there are now, too.
This will not be a disadvantage of going indie. But I do wish we had more good editors and a better process for writers to match with editors who are right for them. But other than a lot of writers recommending what works for them, or thanking the editors in their books, I don’t know what else to do for indie authors. Or for traditionally published ones either.
We should all hope for good editors. And maybe we’ll get lucky. And, hey, I think the market forces are arraying themselves in such a way, that for the first time in years there’s a chance it will be worth someone’s while to develop good editing skills and selling well. Fingers crossed.
According To Hoyt 
Food for thought. [Smile]
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blow prizes…you know what? I’m gonna be good and not even touch that one. I didn’t ‘giggle’ by the way. I ‘guffawed’.
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yeah, I was trying to pretend you were all fairly high minded… RIGHT…. yeah. Okay, I confess my mind was doing the 100 meter crawl in the gutter this morning too.
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This really interested me. You’re right that the hard part is not knowing who will or won’t do a good job, and your money is gone either way. I am flirting with the idea of hiring a story consultant–which I know is not the same as an editor–for my finished WIP. There are some issues that I know are there but don’t know how to fix. Because of the expense, I’m sort of stuck. I’m wondering if I want to continue to query and submit if I’m paying out of pocket for editing services. Anyway, no real point here. I’m just thinking out loud. :D
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Catie, the cheapest route is a good stable of beta readers. I pay mine in reciprocity because it’s such a demanding job. Do you write spec fiction? then try http://critters.org/ Once you build enough crit points you can ask for dedicated readers–but as Sarah warns, shape your questions carefully, or you’ll get line-by-line editing.
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This is one of the reasons my partner Judith Harlan and I started Lucky Bat Books. We’re both experienced editors, but we were expensive. By starting the press and bringing in more editors we knew (as well as artists, designers, publicity folk, web gurus and the like), we were able to bring our fees down and offer more. So now we do as much or as little as writers want and can help self-pub or be a traditional press (except the payment model) working off submissions. We do everything from developmental editing to copy editing. We match not only writing syles but personalities when we match writer with editor. And we’re picky about the editors we work with.
Our editors work on hourly rates. We take no percentages, fees, royalties or any other word for keeping part of the writer’s pie. It is our hope other presses will pop up like ours, changing how publishing treats writers.
You referred to publishers being the one paying, but that’s not how I see it. You are paying — through that 75% or more they keep of every book you sell.
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If the editor hashes the book you are paying even more: every book you don’t sell.
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cindie — for some reason — and I’ve encountered your before — I just realized I keep reading it Lucy Bat, which I thought was weird… Yeah, we’re going to see a lot of different roads to publication and I for one intend to explore EVERY ONE of them. :)
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As a non-fiction editor who is trying to become a fiction editor (done a couple, it’s a sideline for now, trying to get out of the journalism day job grind. No, I’m not the guy Sarah was talking about, for one thing, I only speak ‘murrican and that badly,) it’s not just about indie authors looking for editors but how do we as editors connect with indie authors as well. Whoever comes up with a good way (website maybe?) for us to connect with each other could have a nice little sideline of their own.
Pat
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If Joe Blow develops good writers, then “edited by Joe Blow”, by itself, would be good for additional sales.
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that too. But if you’re editing for pay for the writer, you’d need permission to put that in the final product. I guess you could make it part of the contract.
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I think the risk is opposite. Editors will become valuable branding aids, and writers will want to pay known editors to put their names as “edited by…” without actually getting edited.
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Well my hope is to create a brand where it’s known there will be NO — as in nada, zip, zilch, zero — typos or misspelled words, which drove me NUTS even before I was a newspaper man. Which has gotten worse these last 10 years or so, and for which, with modern methods there is no excuse.
But that’s just me.
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Sarah,
This is very much like what happened in the music business. At one time there was a lot of heavy “editing” by some really talented people, which helped the artists realize their potential. This of course cost money, so the labels cut out the extra cost, so they could maximize their profits.
So why are we surprised that it has happened to Literature?
Wayne
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Somebody really does need to set up an online dating service for authors and editors. I bet it would be incredibly successful.
Signed, an indie writer who never has found a good editor.
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A modest fee for membership, much like the usual sort of online dating site? (Or at least, a fee from the more-numerous class, in that case…) That… might be a viable business proposition. Add in cover artists and layout people, and it’d be one-stop shopping!
Of course, one would have to make sure it didn’t look kinda sleazy. Samples of work and whatnot.
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It’s worth noting that editors (I make no comment as to their quality, as I don’t know most of them editorially or personally) are leaving/being pushed out of publishing at an increasing speed. I’m guessing a fair number of these will be wanting work. Whether they’re any good – or whether they were part of the problem – will doubtless emerge.
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Dave,
So maybe someone needs to start an editor school. Are you volunteering?
Have to admit, if someone did offer a decent course, I’d love to take it. Understanding editing makes you a better writer.
Wayne
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The mind boggles at the possibilities. Magazine ads with a sample paragraph, asking:
The resulting editor glut would soon see forlorn people sitting at highway on-ramps, bearing signs reading “Will Edit For Food”.
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I’m an ex-conscripted veteran, Wayne. Volunteer? What? It’s very hard to edit yourself.
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Given the way things are going, I think a fair number of today’s editors may end up with that sign on a piece of cardboard. It’s grim enough without adding more to it.
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It’s like the computer business. Back in the early 1970’s I looked at the computer courses I was taking, and made a decision. The stuff was so easy, that I didn’t see how anyone could make a living out of it. And I was right, mostly.
Of course I didn’t take into account exactly how unsure of their capabilities a lot of people are. I’ve never had that problem. If anything I’m too overconfident, and end up inserting my foot into my mouth up to my hip.
So here I am sitting today. I’ve got 15 web sites that are dead in the water, and I don’t know why. I was trying to set up Shirley Meier’s new site and something went kablooie on the server, and Mr. Overconfident doesn’t know what he did, or why every site he runs is now dead.
But really things have mostly gotten easier. Technology has made a lot of things more accessible to people. You used to have to pay someone to spell check your document. Now the computer can do it. Mostly.
You used to have to hire an expensive professional to record a song. Now you can do it in your living room (I own a Mac, and have a half decent portable recording studio that cost me less than $5000.00).
Times they are a changing. Maybe the profession of editor is becoming obsolete, like the profession of carriage boy.
Curious that the profession of prostitute (and notice that the word works for both sexes) hasn’t become obsolete.
Wayne
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